Almost finished studio - major rethink may be needed. Help!

Hi - this is my first post - I hope I keep to the rules... I have been building a studio in my basement in Medford, New Jersey. The design was done by a guy in Minneapolis. I only realized just before the final walls were put up between the control room and the live room that he had made an error and made the control room more square than rectangle. I bought Rod's fabulous book, referred to round here as 'The Bible'. I'm so glad I did as he debunked many of the proposals put forward by the studio designer - and saved me bucketloads of cash too. Immense thanks, Rod, should you read this. You saved our necks. I was measuring the various rooms to get some idea of what to do regarding acoustic treatment - that's when I found out about the square control room. Being usually an on-the-case guy I was astounded that I didn't pick it up earlier - ah well... All the walls are up except for the one between the control room and the live room. Luckily I have the opportunity to put this wall in a different place. But this produces its own can of worms. The design was originally done on Sketchup but I am not very familiar with the program. I have two days before the guys are putting up the final wall and need to get the studio finished double quick. My concern is what will happen to the acoustics of the room if I move the wall to give me a more rectangular control room. And also where the optimum speaker placement will be if the room is lengthened. I have a delightful pole in the room that was going to be covered by said wall - now it will be exposed and hampers positioning of desk, speakers, piano etc. The benefits I will get by having more space in the control room are many and varied - I just want to avoid having a control room that sucks acoustically, or can't be fixed. The ceilings in the control room are 90 inches, but from where the metal pole and the original wall idea are, back to the wall furthest away from the control room the ceiling height is 78 inches dues to soffits and HVAC ducts. I have attached various sketchup pix and drawings I did with dimensions and measurements. I hope these will clarify the situation. Any help with this would be so appreciated. Thanks so much - kindest regards - Jonn

Hi Jonn, If you change that wall, you will not have symmetry in your CR. A vital and necessary requirement. I was wondering how you were making out. Best W

Hi Wayne, Funny meeting you here! Thanks for the reply - just having a panic in the final stages. I'm now thinking of having that new wall come straight across from the right instead of angling NW. Then I would be looking at 2 staggered walls. Half of the wall would be three feet closer to me. It's still not symmetrical but I'm running out of options... The speakers would have to be way back from these walls anyway thanks to the darn pole in the room. If i don't do this I end up with a square room. The other option would be to have the room side to side wide instead of front to back long - that way there would be more symmetry but what problems would it cause having a wide room? Help!!! Hey, how are things going with you? Regards - J

Things are good Jonn, the University is keeping me very busy. Can you post the dimensions of each of the spaces. That will give us more to work with and better understand your situation. I made the symmetry response based solely on the way you had the wall drawn in. HxWxL measurements would really help anyone who wants to respond. W

Darn - I thought I posted a pic with all the dimensions. I'll get on that right now. I may have figured out another idea - not one the contractors are gonna like... Thanks W - I'll be back with dimensions in a bit. J

I think one way around this is to knock down the front wall of the vocal booth and bring it forward, then carry the wall all the way to the right. Then the room would be symmetrical again. However I would only gain about 2 ft 8 ins, which would make the room about 13 ft 5 ins by 17 feet. Is that enough of a rectangle? My brain hurts... Jonn

All I have to work with is the Sketchup file. It shows a ~6" gap between the inner and outside walls of the control room. Rebuild the side walls with a 1/2" gap between the inner walls and outside walls. This will make the width of the control room ~14.5'. To get the best possible: stop all construction; spend half an hour and go through the Sketchup tutorials (they get you started very quickly); correct your skp file to be accurate; read and follow the BEFORE YOU POST READ THIS at the top of the forum; start posting, wait for a couple of days for responses; and resume construction with the new plans in January at the earliest. Sorry, but that is the best way to both get the best possible room and avoid problems that may destroy the potential capabilities of the studio. Good luck either way. Andre ps. I see changes to your original post as I am about to post this message. From what I can see from here in the post editing window they do not affect what I wrote.

Andre is one of our highly regarded experts on the forum Jonn. His advice is well respected. W

Andre, Thanks for your advice. This is tough as I have no design experience. The sketchup files were all I had apart from my rough drawings. We veered away from that original design and put up flat walls. Two stud walls, as per Rod's book, each with 2 layers of 5/8th gypsum and R13 in between, so all the walls are 10 inches thick. I was then going to rely on Auralex to sort out the acoustics. I am already way way over budget so have to finish off as best I can, but at least I have the opportunity to de-square the control room. As per Wayne's advice I am trying to keep the control room symmetrical. Here are the questions I need to get answered if possible: 1.) If one dimension of the control room is 13 feet 5 inches, how much longer does the other dimension have to be to avoid the pitfalls of the square room? 2.) I will have to place the speakers in front of the pole that's in the control room (this would have been hidden by the wall that would have made the control room square) Is there a minimum distance that the speakers have to be away from this pole? This brings the speakers further towards the center of the room than I would normally have them. Is this going to be an issue? If you can answer these questions I can then make a decision about how to proceed - that would be much appreciated. Kindest regards - Jonn

jonnsavannah wrote:

As per Wayne's advice I am trying to keep the control room symmetrical.

Symmetry about the monitors is not something nice to have. It is paramount.

1.) If one dimension of the control room is 13 feet 5 inches, how much longer does the other dimension have to be to avoid the pitfalls of the square room?

10% of the dimension. 1.5' minimum

2.) I will have to place the speakers in front of the pole that's in the control room (this would have been hidden by the wall that would have made the control room square) Is there a minimum distance that the speakers have to be away from this pole? This brings the speakers further towards the center of the room than I would normally have them. Is this going to be an issue?

Without specific dimensions and locations all I can say is that symmetry between the monitors and listening position is paramount. Obstructions are anathema. Andre

Andre, Thank you so much for that information - awesome. One thing that came to mind with all this talk of symmetry is whether I should put up another pole equidistant from the other one, and whether a square pole would be better than a round pole! Apart from that I think I'm now in good shape - thanks again for your help. Kindest regards - Jonn

"Obstructions are anathema" Powerful!!!

Here's an off-the-wall idea about that pole: It seems to me that the pole is a major problem, and that you need to consider some options for getting rid of it, not just working around it. What is it supporting? Would it be possible to transfer that load to a lintel (steal beam?) that stretches across the width of the room, supported on poles at either side? You probably cannot answer that question yourself, but a qualified structural engineer can answer it for you, and tell you how to go about doing that. Even if that hypothetical lintel beam eats into your ceiling space, it still beats have a pole in front of your speaker, and also beats having a non-symmetrical room. - Stuart -

Thanks Stuart, I'll look into that. Luckily the pole will be behind the speaker not in front of it! But yes, it would be nice to get rid of it altogether... Regards - Jonn

Thanks to everyone who helped. Now the wall's going up in a much better place, I have a symmetrical control room and more space in the live room. A good result all round. Kindest regards - Jonn

jonnsavannah wrote:

Thanks to everyone who helped. Now the wall's going up in a much better place, I have a symmetrical control room and more space in the live room. A good result all round.

Great. Remember the saying "Pics or it didn't happen!" Andre

Hi Andre - I will take pix and post them! Thanks again - regards - Jonn

Can you show a pic of your solution? I am glad things worked out. :) W

Once it's out of the camera I'll post it. So much better this way - thank goodness I spotted it early(ish) Cheers - J

Thanks Jonn, one of the things I have learned on this site is that, should something go wrong it can be a show stopper. And expensive. Fortunately, I have learned that early in the game. :shock: W

Are you working on your room at home now? I know you said things were changing at the end of this year... J

jonnsavannah wrote:

Are you working on your room at home now? I know you said things were changing at the end of this year... J

I am working on a design to make best use of the space. You had your pole, I have my sump hole. :D In all reality, I am going to work with John Sayers on a design. My room is closed as of December 31. Like I said earlier, learning what can go wrong, not just from your post but reading others, really hit home. I realized I could lose double what I spend if I didn't get the proper help for something I know nothing about. I can build it myself, I just can't design it correctly nor in a reasonable amount of time. The design cost is nothing when you think of the learning involved, just building it will take long enough. I am funding it myself and considering the times, being smart about it is paramount. I'm am excited about a real design, and about making use of a real room. If you need micing tips or help with gear choices or use, feel free to call me. Be glad to help you out. W

Thanks Wayne, I will do. I'm sure there will indeed be some micing stuff I will need help on.... Sounds like you will end up with a fab room! Keep me posted. Hope all is well. Cheers - Jonn

Here, finally, are some pix of the new layout of the control room. Cheers - JS

Now here's the fun part.... Getting closer to the end of this studio build - it's going fine now. I have been in touch with Auralex to try and get some ideas for acoustic treatment. They weren't able to complete a modal analysis as the rooms are not rectangular, but did offer some good suggestions. I wonder if anyone would be able to sort out the best way to go? It seems like the best solution for the control room is to go for Elite C24 panels set a couple of inches off the upper walls and ceilings as I don't have easily accessible corners to put bass traps in. They said this would help with low end absorption. Also to make sure I covered the 1st order reflections, and stagger the other panels so there wouldn't be panels directly opposite each other on parallel walls. I seem to like pretty live control rooms so they suggested 40% coverage rather than 50%. There was a lot of confusing discussion about the back wall and whether I should absorb, diffuse or have a combination of both. I have no clue... The live room, with its low ceilings, would have 30% coverage with the same panels, but I would have to have the ceiling panels right on the ceiling and not a couple of inches off - there's so little height.... Then the vocal booth would be 60% coverage with the pArt Science audio tiles - that sounds like a good bet. I would love to get some input regarding this as I would hate to spend $6,000 and get this totally wrong! Looking forward to some suggestions - thanks! happy New Year - Jonn