First of all: What an awesome forum this is! So much knowledge!
I have been following this forum for about a year now while planning a studio for my local musicsociety.
We finally got settled on a place!
Firstly we where suppose to be located in a basement. Not a very nice place to be - only 2 meters to ceiling. Then due to no fireexit in the basement(some rules about common rooms) we had to compromise and use a room on the groundfloor instead, which means we arent going to have direct visual contact with the musicians. But instead we do get 2 tracking rooms instead of one. The CR is also a lot nicer and a bit bigger the room in the basement.
Im posting to get some facts confirmed and to present to you the studiodesign for you to take appart so i can go back to the drawingboard :lol:
The CR is W3,05 x L4.15 x H4,15
The room has a hanged ceiling as well at the heigh 3,15 consisting of plasterboards with small holes in it.
We are getting 2 neighbours: One to the left wall and one above.
The left wall is made of a kind of concrete blocks. around and no more than 10cm thick. The floor of the neigbours is elevated 1 meter compared to the CR with a small crawlspace underneath it, which connects to the CR via a small door (not on the drawing). The other side wall is made of normal bricks.
Back wall consists of 2 leafs with one layer of plasterboard on each on a wooden frame. Doesnt soud like theres any insulation between them.
The small niches in the front end of the room are made of glass and has a glass doee in between to the backyard. This door is going to be blocked from the inside and not used at all.
The budget is 2000-4000$ ofr all 3 rooms. Closer to 2k than 4k ;-)
I've searched around this forum alot and found this interesting build - Small Studio
http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5457 Which inspired me alot since the CR is allmost same size. In this build he has a frame with insulation covered with cloth on the inner frame.
questions:
1. My CR needs to be pretty soundproof because of the neighbours. If i Insulate the frame and cloth it and fill out the air between inner frame and the left wall, the neigbours will get the sound right?
2. This is on Roomratios. On the drawing i have not put framing for the ceiling on yet. But it will be very similiar to the small studio deisgn of Sayers. angled from the end of the room upwards towards the middle of the room.
When i use Roomratios do use the outer room(original room) size or the new innerroom?
I have for now used the dimensions of the outer room and looked at Sepmeyers and Loudens RR and the closest one i could get to was this 1: 1,28; 1,54 Which leaves me a ceiling at 2,4. This height should it be at the end of room or at the highest point of the ceiling(in Johns design the middle of the room)?
I think this is it for now.
I will post design of the trackingrooms later.
Im really looking forward to your input! Feel free to comment, remove, redesign, pickapart!
Kind regards!
Musicbunker - Copenhagen - studiobuild
Originally posted at johnlsayers.com, topic 11463.
Hope i dont get flamed for this. I could really use some input on point 2. about roomratios, since we're allmost ready to start building.
If i left anything out of my first post please let me know so i can update it correctly.
Kind regards
You are thinking about it right. The room ratios are taken from the hard boundaries of the existing room.Hope i dont get flamed for this. I could really use some input on point 2. about roomratios, since we're allmost ready to start building. If i left anything out of my first post please let me know so i can update it correctly. Kind regards
But if i build a "room" inside the excisting room with walls and all...will it not be the ratios of that room counting?
I ask this question because i am in doubt of how high i have to put the ceiling in the new room....
And thanks for answering! :-)
Kind regards.
Hard boundary is key. If you are framing up another room(a hard boundary) inside of an existing room, then the boundaries of the new leaf are your deciding area. If it is just treatment, then that doesn't count, as I understand it.
ok thanks alot - im building hard boundary. So final question is what height do i use when the ceiling is not straigt....it angles upwards towards the center of the room. Do i measure from the end of the room or the middle? or do i start somewhere in between!
Again thanks alot for the answer!
Why? This wil help explain my question.So final question is what height do i use when the ceiling is not straigt....it angles upwards towards the center of the room.
It does not show in your skp. Use the average of the height. AndreDo i measure from the end of the room or the middle? or do i start somewhere in between! Again thanks alot for the answer!
hehe Avare - reading that post just made me a bit more confused. So either is good - splayed or straight? Splayed you get alot of unknowns and straigth you just need some treatment?
Well my room is kind of small as you can see does that matter`? You also write that large ceiling hight is preferreble, but does the ratios of the room not have to follow eachother? My reason for asking this is that i have the oppotunity of making my room pretty tall.....up to 4,5 meters but the lenth and the width i cannot change. What would be ideal?
The reason that the ceiling is not in the file is simply that i dont know yet how it should be and how high it should be placed - thats why i seek to be enlightened here :D
Kind regards
The answer is "Yes!" :) Welcome to the club! Acoustics is anything but intuitive. Things that sound logical at first sight, actually are not. There are lots of trade-offs that you need to be aware of. A rectangular room makes it easier to calculate where your problems will probably be, which simplifies things to a certain extent but introduces specific problems of its own that will need treatment (such as flutter echo, fixed modes, etc). Splayed walls/ceiling are good tools to help mitigate certain of those problems, such as early reflections, flutter echo, etc. but it makes it much harder to calculate exact problems, since you don't have parallel surfaces. So yes, you are right: it is a case of "six of one thing, or half a dozen of another". take your pick.hehe Avare - reading that post just made me a bit more confused. So either is good - splayed or straight? Splayed you get alot of unknowns and straigth you just need some treatment?
Yes! Bigger is better, but ratios are also important. The smaller the room, the more important ratios become, and the more treatment you will need.Well my room is kind of small as you can see does that matter`?
Yes and no. There are many different ratios, some excellent, some just good. Different researchers have come up with different ways of calculating ratios, and have published different tables, but there is a general consensus on where the best ratios are. stick to those. One rule of thumb: More volume (space) is good. Maximize volume when you can. Make things bigger where possible. Now, here's an interesting issue for Andre or one of the other experts to answer, but the way I see it, it doesn't really matter which way you orient the ratios! Normally, the first "1" is the height, but I don't see any acoustic reason why you could not take that "1" as the width, and use the other two as height and length, for example, or length and height.... Maybe I'm wrong on that. Andre?You also write that large ceiling hight is preferreble, but does the ratios of the room not have to follow each other?
I think you just answered your own question, without realizing it! Since your length and width are fixed in your case, and you cannot change them, just vary your ceiling height until you come up with a ratio that makes sense! Choose whichever table you feel like (some folks argue for one table over another...), plug in your length and width, and see what height pops up! There will be several ratios that work, probably, so go with the one that gives you the highest ceiling. - Stuart -My reason for asking this is that i have the oppotunity of making my room pretty tall.....up to 4,5 meters but the lenth and the width i cannot change. What would be ideal?
In the linked thread I wrote:hehe Avare - reading that post just made me a bit more confused. So either is good - splayed or straight? Splayed you get alot of unknowns and straigth you just need some treatment?
The attachment shows what splaying walls can do to room modes. It is taken from Everest, Master Handbook of Acoustics.If you are building in an existing structure the effect of splaying will be to reduce the volume of the room.
Your problem is room size. That has been identified to you. As Soundman2020 correctly wrote (good thinking Stuart):Well my room is kind of small as you can see does that matter`? You also write that large ceiling hight is preferreble, but does the ratios of the room not have to follow eachother? My reason for asking this is that i have the oppotunity of making my room pretty tall.....up to 4,5 meters but the lenth and the width i cannot change. What would be ideal?
Assuming your new walls are 150 mm thick (90 mm studs, 2 layers of drywall with Green Glue or Noise Killer Yellow between the layers with insulation in the space), build to the ratio of 1:1.2:1.55 (2.75:3.85:4.25 m). This ratio meets the EBU recommendation, is within the Bolt ratio diagram, and is one of the ratios in Cox's second best ratios list for a 50 m^3 room. You can not get much better than that for room ratios with 2 dimensions fixed by the space! Start doing budgeting. Second door into the room, drywall, studs, Green Glue/NoiseKiller Yellow, electrical, HVAC, signal lines for starters. AndreNormally, the first "1" is the height, but I don't see any acoustic reason why you could not take that "1" as the width, and use the other two as height and length, for example, or length and height.