Home Recording space design in ARGENTINA

Hi there! I’m writing from Buenos aires Argentina in order to share with you my plans for a new rehearsal/recording home studio :D I’ve been participating (mostly reading) on this forum for almost a year now. I’ve done quit a bit of research on designing and building studios, yet I have lot’s of questions. First let me say SORY FOR MY ENGLISH, I’m doing my best and I’m grateful for you guys spending some time on reading and trying to help me. So here we go (I hope i'm following all the rules of the forum on this post, if not just tell me and i'll correct myself): LOCATION Buenos Aires, Argentina (Probably south of where you are right now.. lol) PROJECT OVERVIEW I currently own a space where I have a rehearsal room and a control room. It used to be a small house (A small bathroom, a small kitchen and 1 bedroom) where my grandfathers lived in the back of my mothers house. I’ve hade the place for about 8 years now and I’ve done some acoustic treatment but nothing regarding isolation. Basically I left all the construction as it was originally and added some acoustic foam to improve the sound inside (What a noob I was back there… And probably still am! Lol) I use it for rehearsals with my band and some occasional recording/Mixing. The idea now is to have a real Home Studio (As best as I can get it) and start from scratch. At the end of the post you will see an image of the current layout and my plans for the space… But I’ll get more into details of that later. WHERE AM I THE PROCESS RIGHT NOW? I’m finishing the research stage (although I will continue to read and search on this forum and Internet) and I have a plan of what I want to do regarding construction and isolation. I haven’t got to deep with acoustic treatments inside the room’s yet, but I have a general idea of what I want to achieve and how to do it. This is my first post where I’m asking you guys for your help and insights. With that information I’ll have a somewhat definitive plan of action and will go to stage 2 of the process: BUILDING (And posting a journal of my own… actually I’m pretty excited about sharing my progress with you) Building will start in February of 2009, so I have some time to do accurate researching and planning of every step. Problems will appear… Sure… but I think that thinking ahead (and with time) will help reduce the headaches. HOW LOUD AM I ? I have a Rock band where I play drums. We have also a guitar and bass + 2 vocals (3 people band). Our overall level is pretty loud (Sory I can’t share the amount of DB’s with you but haven’t got a Decibel meter yet). Summing up… LOUD. That being said, we practice only once or twice a week for about 3 hours. And we do it on “normal” hours for example Saturdays from 4pm to 7pm. This is an acceptable time-frame for making a little bit of noise without bothering the neighbors (or at least they deal with it without calling the cops lol). In the 8 years we’ve been there we had only 1 complaint from a neighbor who had a health problem in his family and gently asked for us not to rehearse for one day. A reasonable request that we followed immediately I’ve done some tests where other people where playing inside and from the outside of the construction you can hear some amount of sound coming out. Nothing that will make your bones tweak but definitely something I want to improve. There will be no “late night sessions” or playing during the night. Basically our routine will continue to be the same (Saturday afternoon + another day in the middle of the week). That aside I’m aiming for as high isolation as I can get in order to avoid any future problems with new neighbors or whatever. My neighbors are “quiet” I guess but occasionally they have a party or just hear loud radios on the weekends. The neighborhood is a residential area with just a bit of traffic noise. My family does not have a problem with my current sound levels, so we’ll have to focus in improving the situation for my neighbors (of course my family will enjoy the benefit as well lol) HOW MUCH ISOLATION I WANT? As much as I can get. Yes that’s a little vague perhaps but basically I’m willing to go the extra mile (if budget allows) in order to achieve a reasonable amount of isolation. Basically I want to be able to blast away for 2 or 3 hours without disturbing the neighbors (keep in mind that this is a rehearsal room and a recording space). If any amount of sound should leave the room it will have to be a “reasonable” amount in order to avoid problems (Equivalent to a mid/loud radio for example, no more than that) Maybe in the future I will record another band (occasionally) but the main use of the space will be rehearsal and/or recording twice or three times a week for personal projects. The control room is not much of problem, as I don’t mix really loud (I get ear fatigue very fast if I do) so I’m focusing on the recording/rehearsal area as the main place to do isolation. I know isolation is complex and therefore I’ve spent plenty of time researching and reading Rod Gervais Book (Awesome material). EXISTING CONSTRUCTION Here I’ll begin to describe the existing construction and what materials where used, where neighbors are, etc. First of let me bring your attention to the picture "actual & future Layout" below. Here you can see my existing layout (rehearsal room + CR) and my idea for a future layour (Live room + CR). keep in mind that y can't change some walls as they are load bearing walls. Basically i have to work with what i have as you see it on the pictures. Neighbors I have neighbors on 3 sides of the construction. Let’s take a look: Behind the North wall from the rehearsal room (12 o clock) neighbors are about 10 feet away (a window from their bedroom). Behind East wall (3 o clock) neighbors are about 12 feet away, and again a bedroom windows is there (Ouch). This are the two flanks where I’m putting all my attention. Neighbors on north and east sides are the ones that I will have most problems in the future if I don’t improve the isolation. On the west side neighbors are about 25/30 feet away and don’t present much of a problem. Existing Construction Detail The wall marked as C is a load bearing wall and holds part of the ceiling, so as you will see in my plans it has to stay in place. North Wall> 30cm (12”) solid brick wall rendered on both sides East Wall > 30cm (12”) solid brick wall rendered on both sides West Wall > 15cm (6”) solid brick wall rendered on both sides Inner wall > 15cm (6”) solid brick wall rendered on both sides (Will be taken down) South Wall > 15cm (6”) solid brick wall rendered on both sides The roof is constructed with lumber framing (2”X4” Visible Joists) with light weight steel plates sitting on top of it. A water drain runs just above the wall that divides the live room from the control room (yeah, it sucks). The height of the roof is 14 feet (on the high side) and 10 feet on the lower side. My idea is to make it 9 feet all the way (a straight ceiling using drywall) The floor is a concrete slab of 4” sitting directly over compacted earth. I’m not planning on making a floating floor because I read that it’s not recommended to do it over concrete slabs (unless you do it REALLY god). Hopefully Earth will give me the isolation that I need. CONSTRUCTION PLAN My plan is to demolish the “Inner wall” and tearing up the bathroom (will be relocated in another part of the house outside the studio) in order to make room for a bigger live room. The CR will stay unchanged regarding construction, although I will make improvements in acoustic treatment inside of it. The space between the Live Room and the CR will lead to the outside and will be (hopefully) air tight in order to create an air lock.- The design is fairly simple, and as you can see I’m going with parallel walls. This is mainly due to a space limitation. You can see that the place I have it’s small so I’ll have to leave things simple and work later with acoustics in order to make it sound good. I’m going with a “room inside a room” and MAM design. And this is a detail of what I will use to build the new room inside: New Walls 2”X4” Framing filled with insulation (The pink fluffy stuff) + 2 sheets of 5/8” drywall (Maybe 3 if necessary) + 2” Insulation attached to the existing brick walls This walls will be separated from the concrete walls by 2/3” (A 6/7” total Air GAP) New Roof + 2 sheets of 5/8” drywall (Maybe 3 if necessary) + 2” Insulation attached on top of the drywall + 2” Insulation attached directly to the older ceiling New Floor On the Live room I’m planning to put a new layer of plyboard sitting on top of wood joists filled with compacted sand. The idea of this is to have a really solid floor and a flat surface in order to install pre-terminated wooden floors. For the control room I don’t have much construction planned. The floor will be the same and existing walls will be used. As u see I don’t have much space to work with, so making a Room inside a room in the CR space is just impossible. Conduits I’m planning on having underground conduits (put in place and then filled with concrete) connecting the live room with the control room. This conduits (at least 2) will be for mic cables and (a separate one not parallel) for electrical cables. Standard PVC pipes will be the choice. The idea here is not making any holes on the walls in order to improve isolation. For example the electrical outlets will be mounted on top of the walls (not inside the wall). The construction code allows this.- Windows There will be 2 windows in the live room: a) Window from Live room to control room 2 separare panes Live room 1” thick laminated glass. Control room ¾” laminated glass Rubber seals all around b) Window from live room to the outside world Live room 1” thick laminated glass. Outside window of 2 sliding single panes (1/2” I would like to point out that I’m trying to make the new construction separate from the existing space. The new walls and ceiling will not touch any part of the existing construction in order to prevent vibration transmission. The only contact point will be the floor. The again here earth will help me with isolation. Doors Al doors will be replaced with double solid-core doors. Rubber seals will be uses as described in the Rod Gervais book in order to have an airtight construction. Maybe I will build some of this doors with plywood layers filled with insulation/Sand. Altough I haven’t decided on it because I want to be real careful with the loads that a wall filled with sand will represent for the structure (hinges, framing, etc). MATERIALS This is an issue here in Argentina. I don’t have access to GREEN GLUE or ACOUSTIC CAULK. So I’ll have to work with local materials. For green glue I haven’t found any replacement, so the two (or three) layers of 5/8” drywall will just sit one on top of the other. As far as Acoustic Caulk I’ve found some acoustic sealant that think will work just fine (As soon as I have some specs of it I will post them). Drywall and insulation are not a problem, the same with lumber for framing. BUDGET As I will be doing most of the work (I’m pretty handy with tools) the main cost will be on materials. I’m not sure if it serves of any help but I would like to keep it under $ 3K… Although I’m willing to go an extra mile if it’s needed. The approach is to work “on a budget” but without cutting corners and hurting the final result. If the budget gets bigger probably the construction will take a little more time but… no problem!. QUESTIONS 1) What do you think of the overall PLAN ? Any suggestions or doubts ? 2) As far as ISOLATION goes…. Do you think I need to improve anything ? Will this plan (if well executed) give me the isolation I need ? 3) What is a substitute for “Backer rod” ? I can’t found it here and will like to know what it is (can I replace it with some sort of foam or rubber ?) 4) The sand filled new floor is a good idea ? Laying plywood on top will give me a smooth and “straight” space to lay the new pre-finished floor. 5) Angling glass between Live and CR… good idea or not worth it ? Remember that walls will be paralled do to a space issue… That’s about it for now. More questions will come along the way but I think this will get us started. I appreciate you taking the time to read this and your input will help me (and others maybe) go in the right direction with the build. Thanks again and god bless. :wink: Ale.

Can't you have the Green Glue distributor in Mexico ship you product? J&J Soluciones -Mexico Distributor Phone: (55) 24 75 26 06 [removed] www.jjsoluciones.com Bob

BBBob wrote:

Can't you have the Green Glue distributor in Mexico ship you product? J&J Soluciones -Mexico Distributor Phone: (55) 24 75 26 06 [removed] www.jjsoluciones.com Bob

Bob thanks for the information. The problem is that GG isn't exactly a "cheap" product as it is... Add shipping costs to that and i'm in deep trouble! LOL For me it will be cheaper to just add another layer of drywall (if needed). Best regards :wink:

BBBob is just another green glue distributor - this forum is getting flooded with them ;) :roll:

Nah, just a satisfied hulk snot (as my carpenter likes to call it) user trying to help a bro. ;) Plus I don't live in Mexico (but have been there a lot). Bob

Sory to Hijack this thread but i was wondering if any of you guys had some feedback to give me.... :oops: I know it's a long post and lots of info but i'll apreciatte the little comments you can give me to see if i'm moving in the right direction :wink: Thanks a million! God bless.

Almost 20 days from my first post and no feedback.... Bump! :( I know you guys are busy and we have lot's of threads here.... but some feedback will be really great! :wink: Thanks in advance. Best regards.

To me (not an expert) your layout looks pretty good, compared with the old layout. I see that you haven't shown much treatment for your rooms yet: Is that because you are going to wait until the rooms are finished, then measure them, then decide on treatment? If so, that's a good way to do it, according to Rod. Regarding the Green Glue, if you can't get it in Bs.As., then maybe you could just go with 3 layers of drywall, instead of two. 2 layers is about the same as 2 layers plus GG. Bueno, estas son mis sugerencias, por lo que valen! Ojalá que te sirven en algo! Suerte con la construcción. - Stuart (Chile) -

Soundman2020 wrote:

2 layers is about the same as 2 layers plus GG.

say what?

xSpace wrote:

Soundman2020 wrote:

2 layers is about the same as 2 layers plus GG.

say what?

I guess he meant "3 layers of Drywall is about the same as 2 Layers with GG (as far as isolation levels)"

I see that you haven't shown much treatment for your rooms yet: Is that because you are going to wait until the rooms are finished, then measure them, then decide on treatment? If so, that's a good way to do it, according to Rod.

That's correct! I have a general idea of what i want to achieve regarding acoustics (Bass traps on corners, difusser and resonators on paralel walls and of course absorption), but i'll prefer to go into that once the room is finished. I think it's important to design a room so it will "sound good" from the start so you don't have to go crazy with treatment. That being said i prefer to make some measures after the building is completed, so i can adress the problems that may appear (Standing waves, accentuation of certain frequencies, etc). Thanks for the feedback, and hope to get some more real soon. God bless! :wink:

I guess he meant "3 layers of Drywall is about the same as 2 Layers with GG (as far as isolation levels)"

Yup, that's what I meant! Too much typing, not enough proof-reading... :oops: At least you understood what I TRIED to say!

people make mistakes and should be forgiven rather than viewed as the sum of the mistake they have made.

people make mistakes and should be forgiven rather than viewed as the sum of the mistake they have made.

Absolutely! If it weren't for that, I'd be doomed by all of my mistakes so far!

Soundman2020 wrote:

people make mistakes and should be forgiven rather than viewed as the sum of the mistake they have made.

Absolutely! If it weren't for that, I'd be doomed by all of my mistakes so far!

Couldn't agree more... :thu:

Hey Ale cómo andás che!!! It is amazing I just started my thread today and I just noticed yours. I will start the building in february too. I just returned from BA 3 months ago. I lived in Belgrano (lacroze 1935) and studied at Tecson, Inartec and Ceartec. Buenos Aires is such a beautifull city and many friends are there. Now I'm in Cali recording and producing again in a friend's studio but I cant wait to have mine again. I'd like to contact you so we can help each other and speak in spanish. Anyway this forum is the best, I admire john's work and Steve and all the guys here are just awesom. I even read and follow the threads just for fun, LOL. Maybe we can make contact through msn. Just add me to your contacs and we can talk about our studio design and construction. My email is [removed] Bueno Ale, un gusto che y espero saber de vos pronto. Edu.

Hey guys! I'm getting a little anxious here... :roll: I'm starting to build in January 09' finally and so far, besides a few comments, i haven't received any solid feedback. I will very much aprecciate if somebody can review my plan and tell me if i'm going in the right direction, and give some pointers. Thanks a million, god bless! Ale.

Ale. Draw us a picture :) Really. You said a lot of things but we need visual aids!!!

Ale. Draw us a picture Really. You said a lot of things but we need visual aids!!! Ale. Draw us a picture :) Really. You said a lot of things but we need visual aids!!!

Hey X.! Nice to see you drop by this thread (i'm looking forward to hear your input on my project). I've posted a few plans (current layout, propoased layout, wall detail, ceiling)... it's all on the first page... Do you need anything else? Tell me and i'll be glad to post additional info that you may need to provide feedback. 8) Thanks for the help .!!! God bless. Ale.

It all looks well to me. One thing that I would want to know. The wall you are going to tear down, does this wall have joists running over the top of it? This will be a long span after the wall is removed if it is supporting the overhead joists. You said that your joists are "2X4" which I have a lot of trouble understanding this. Maybe I misunderstood you? And this is why I ask for pictures :)

Hey X... i've added a picture so you can see what type of ceiling it its. It's important to say that the wall i'm tearing was built long after the ceiling was in place (so it's not a "load bearing" wall). i've consulted that with a local engineer that suggest adding 2 additional joists (2X6 maybe) across the original joists to give more support (Just in case). Any feedback will be great, and if you anybody needs additional info just let me know. God bless!

Those don't look like 2x4 joists to me. Did you measure them to get their true dimensions?

Those don't look like 2x4 joists to me. Did you measure them to get their true dimensions? Those don't look like 2x4 joists to me. Did you measure them to get their true dimensions?

Soundman, sory for the confusion but that's just a schematic (not an actual picture of my room). I've posted it only to show what type of joist's i have (i can't post a picture of them beacuse theyi are covered with a wood ceiling that will be teared down as construction begins).- Keep the feedback coming please! My plan looks well ? How about isolation ? Am i doing the things right to achieve optimun isolation ? Thanks!!!

One thing I did notice about your design is that you have a good two-leaf system around your live room, but not around your control room. Any reason for that? Your control room has only a one-leaf wall, according to your diagrams.

One thing I did notice about your design is that you have a good two-leaf system around your live room, but not around your control room. Any reason for that? Your control room has only a one-leaf wall, according to your diagrams

Soundman that's correct. The reason is that the space in the CR is not very large. If i go with a two leaf system here space will be compromised. On the other hand the Live Room is were all the really LOUD sounds will be reproduced, so i'm aming for maximun isolation there. The CR will be for mixing and monitoring only, so keeping it around 80-85 Db's should work fine (i know maybe outside noise could come in as well, but it's a quiet area so that shouldn't be a problem) Any more comments are welcome! keep them coming. God bless.-

Have you considered building an "inside-out" wall as the inner leaf for your control room (CR)? That's where you put the gyspum board on the OUTSIDE of the studs (instead of on the inside), directly facing the outer layer, with just a small gap in between, filled with insulation. So you end up with the studs inside your control room. You can then use that space between the studs as part of the treatment of your control room: maybe fill it with rock wool and cover it with acoustic cloth, or build slot resonators over it... The advantage is that it takes up much less floor space, and you an use the stud space for treatment. Plus, you can then build a proper inner ceiling on top of your CR, to create a complete inner leaf. The disadvantage is that it's not as good as a normal wall for isolation, of course, but certainly is better than nothing at all! It only takes up about 5 inches or so, if you go with a really small air gap of around one inch. (If you can go down to 2x3 studs, then you can probably even squeeze it into about 4 inches, total depth, but I'm not sure if that would make your wall too weak to support a full ceiling with three layers of gypsum board.) That's what I'm planning to do. My CR is going to be even smaller than yours, so I'm REALLY tight on space, but I figured that I definitely do need the inner leaf, and that's the only way to do it in a very small footprint. It might be worth considering. - Stuart -