Max' Studio - First impressions & questions

Hi All! I'm right in the middle of building my studio in the attic. It's going to be a mixing/control room 'only' with about 30 sqm. The sloping roof is cutting the room size down a bit but it still has a great size. I've already started the framing but have run into some quetions now. I want to show some pictures to illustrate which problems I'm facing. It's all about corners and resonators/absorbers. The speakers will later on be positioned under the sloping roof next to the window in the back. So the sound will go towards to big back wall first. My question are: 1) Would you recommend to build a corner absorber near the chimney? 2) Should I frame the sidewalls A + B straight to the concrete walls or have them lets say 5-7° sloping like shown in the ground plan? EDIT: Answered! The are stright now. No sloping. Possibly sloping resonators or absorbers later on.... 3) In the small corners under the roof - do I put "hangers" there ? Or just "simple" insulation? Or any other kind of bass absorption recommended? On the left corner I'm planning to build a 19" rack into the small corner cabine with external air supply for cooling the PC. Theres not much space left but still some to insulate or whatever.... EDIT: Answered! Will fill it up with insulation. 4) Should I separate the straight part of the low backwall from the 2 corner cabines? EDIT: Answered! Solutions comes with the answer of 3). Also please have a look at the comment to John's suggestion for the framing of the room. EDIT: For some reason the comments to the attachments don't get saved :-( Here they are: 42: small wall at the lowest point of the roof. with the right corner already framed. on the right: sidewall A mat_2: John's suggestion for the framing of the room. Had to change some things due to architectural things. I will also not mount the speakers in the wall for the beginning. maybe later. I want to try and keep the concept of the resonator though maybe 2: Back wall with the chimney in the corner. Sidewall with the window in it. Ground plan: The ground plan with the questions illustrated.

Come on guys! Not a single word on any of my helpless questions? :-) I'm scared I did something wrong with the forum rules !! :-D I want to come up with another subject. I use a special soundprotection profile made out of tin. It manufactured by the german company Knauf. Also what do you think about the decoupling solution with rubber for the walls? I will show my ceiling solution in the next thread (similiar system with rubber). Hope to get some answer !! :-) Thanks

Wiring should be in conduit..no exceptions.

The conduit is not always required - BUT - what you have done (from what I see) is to pass the wire straight through holes in the metal studs - and that is bad - they make special gromets you are supposed to use to protect the wires from damage over time. You really should fix that - low voltage wiring will eventually be damaged - line voltage wiring could actually cause death if it shorts out against metal framing that doesn't run to ground (could even if it DOES run to ground). As far as the use of the rubber beneath the frame - it isn't worth all that much - it doesn't really isolate well and the screws into the floor will still create a short even with the rubber between them and the metal sill. Rod

Hi guys, thanks for the hint! Well I was put on that path by the manufacturer of the studs. See pics below. The intentionally stamp passages for cables in the studs and I thought this IS the solution. But reading now about shorts (and also maybe about fire??) I really should fix this. DAMN! I think I won't use conduits thought. I'm looking for some "protection" around the cable at the specific passing points in the stud. Or is it ok to use the stamped holes instead of my own drilled holes?

@Rod: you really made me think about it!! :-) Can you have a look at the picture? What we have is a kind of double floating floor. The layer on which I'm building is already a 6centimeter floating stone floor on a 18 cm concrete ceiling. So the walls with the rubber are standing not directly on the concrete ceiling to the next floor below. Concerning my final floating floóar I have bought special "Rigidur" plates with a pressed glassfibre layer attached to it. This should give another protection against sound waves trying to get down to the next floor.. What do you think? Is the rubber enough then? Thanks for your effort !!

rod gervais wrote:

The conduit is not always required -

Yes sir. Simply the lack of protection was begging for attention, required never being mentioned. All the wires should be protected, no exceptions. Conduit, with the slim studs and stamped cutouts , seemed the most likely candidate for all around protection from screws, nails and sharp metal edges.

xSpace wrote:

rod gervais wrote:

Conduit, with the slim studs and stamped cutouts , seemed the most likely candidate for all around protection from screws, nails and sharp metal edges.

I second that.

Hi guys, hope all is well! Well, another week end of hard work. But whom do I tell!! :-) I fixed the problem with the wiring throught the holes with the sharp metal edges. Good idea to use conduit. Work as a charm.... Will post some pics in the next days. I've come to the point where I need some advice or opinions to my question I already brought to the table in the first or second post. It's all about the little "room" / "space" whatever you wanna call it. Do I put hangers there or is layered insulation from bottom to top better? Please have a look at the pictures or skp file. Any ideas??? Other than that - it's so much fun building this !!!!!!!!!! Tin framing & First layer drywall almost finished! Posting some pictures soon.....

Sketch up file for the above!

1) Hmm, there's a weakpoint where the corners meet. No mass, no isolation. 2) You add "resilient" material to have the frame decoupled from the ground yet you have that grey conduit against the wall and floor... a great flanking path. Well, as Rod mentioned, the rubber's not gonna work that great anyway. Oh, is it possible for you to resize the image in your opening post.. I get mad trying to scroll through..

Hi Ro, the meeting of the corner walls are supposed to be covered with drywall and filled with insulation. Sorry that I didnt mention this. Concerning the grey conduit I don#t think this will cause problems. It is not connected to the drywall it just touches it at some points. I put rubber there. What about the actual question about the absorbing / bass trapping in these corners? Any opinions? Thanks for sharing your concerns!!! Will check the pic sizes.... :-) Matt

Thanx for resizing. Concerning acoustics. Hangers are cool, but not tested AFAIK. In tight spaces you'd be better off filling it with wool. Remember: more wool (volume) more low-end trapping.

Hi Ro, you are right. And its not that much more expensive than doing the hangers. The yellow area will be filled with insualtion (fibreglass) as shown in the pic. Cheers!

Hi guys !!! Almost done with the first layer of drywall (How often has this sentence been written in this place ???) I've done a new sketchy with real measures, real concrete walls and framing. I came across the thought where to put the mixing desk. I placed it in the middle of the room in this version. I wonder I 2,5 meters left and right of the speakers to the sidewalls would be enough to do without any walls preparations like absorbers and resonators. What do you think? Also I'm starting to think about the door(s). I would prefer "building" my own. I mean buying a used for example and prepare it sound proofing. I read something about Rod's Super Door - What is it??? I think I need the book voucher now , hu? :_) In general, a mixing position more left near the window is not wanted right? due to asymetric stereo reproduction ... Bed is calling.... EDIT next morning: Added 2 pics. One which shows the concrete walls and drywalls. One that is a real panorama pic to give an impression of the whole room

Do you have a picture of the whole room? I don't recall your stating much about it except it is mostly concrete.

xSPace, i've edited the previous thread and added a real picture plus a sketch up which shows the concrete parts of the whole building. can you check this? The pipes: They are old steam outlets from the kitchen below. They won't cause any trouble. They are shut in the kitchen and covered under a drywall ceiling. Here in the Studio they have a lid and will also be behind the drywall which means they only experience sound waves when they have passed through the isolated drywall. I will fill up this whole little space with insulation also. Looking forward to your response on the concrete thing....

Yea, I see it's concrete, roof too? Nice skylight. I wouldn't have gone thru the trouble of installing sheetrock on the backside/outside of the low end wall. That said, I also wouldn't go to any trouble trying to mud that part of it.

Hi X, I've finally done a sketch up of my roof build up. Have a look. It's not concrete. It's standard joist. What I as an amateur think I can be proud of is the special sound proof frame I bought. It's manufactured by KNAUF. See it below. It is called "Federschiene" in english: Spring rail. Opinions? Why wouldn't you insulate the low end wall space? When I bang against the wall with my hand (maybe it will be my head very soon :-) ) I can hear a relatively long I guess around 45 Hz tone. I don't hear this on the higher walls. Only on this small low end wall. Why is that?? What do you mean by "mud" ?? This is where my english ends !! :-) Thanks

loose the "federschiene" and add gypsumboards directly to your roof, else you'll end up with a multi-leaf ceiling. The "federschiene" are NOT resilient (if that's your goal) if you mount'm like the pic says. There's also a little "space" between the soft fibre wood plate.. loose that too by lifting the wood plate. Else you'll have a resonation panel in your construction.. Add more MASS if you will by adding gypsum in between the joists.

Hi Ro, you are right. My mistake with the Federschiene. I have removed the rubber. It was complete nonsense as the description of the manufacturer already says to leave a 1 mm space. what do you mean by "multi-leaf ceiling"? I want to achieve some kind of decoupling in the ceiling to avoid sound waves to reach the pressboard, joists etc. I found out by knocking around in the room that most noise is transfer over the ceiling down to the floor below. So any decoupling makes sense here ?? Concerning the build up everything above the pressboard - I can't change anything here. But I have to add that in the next years I want to remove the bricks from outside and completely remove the insulation, slats etc. a thicker inulation and a new construction will be build. steam barrier foil & pressboard inside will stay. The federschiene make sense then?

Oh, just to inform you: These joists shown in the pic are NOT separate joists for the room-in-the-room. It's the actual joist of the house! Sorry that didn't come out very good in the pic. There won't be a "real" floating ceiling. The only floating thing will be the hard drywall with the "federschiene". Have alook below. You see the house roof with the aluminium foilwith insulation under it. Over this the steam foil & pressboard.

matthiasmax wrote:

My mistake with the Federschiene. I have removed the rubber. It was complete nonsense as the description of the manufacturer already says to leave a 1 mm space.

:? ok.

what do you mean by "multi-leaf ceiling"?

More than 2 leafs :) If you've read this forum, you'd know. It's all over this place. Having more than 2 leafs in a construction is bad. MAM (Mass Air Mass), remember? If not, read, study, buy Rod's book etc. That's seems to be the mantra for this site anyway.

I want to achieve some kind of decoupling in the ceiling to avoid sound waves to reach the pressboard, joists etc. I found out by knocking around in the room that most noise is transfer over the ceiling down to the floor below. So any decoupling makes sense here ?

What you are looking for is Resilient Channel. Auralex sells it in Europe. That stuff you showed (federschiene) isn't, and I repeat myself here, resilient. It's known as "hat" channel on this forum. The holes in the channel don't make it resilient. Resilient channel acts like a spring... bounce, bounce :)

Concerning the build up everything above the pressboard - I can't change anything here. But I have to add that in the next years I want to remove the bricks from outside and completely remove the insulation, slats etc. a thicker inulation and a new construction will be build. steam barrier foil & pressboard inside will stay.

ok, fair enough.

The federschiene make sense then?

nope

Hi, next steps: - ordered THE BOOK finally :-) (to spare you from my amateur half-knowledge) - bring back the hat channel to the local property market - buy rc from Auralex Germany (nice guy, had a short chat!) - doing my first skydive on the 21st! So, you never want more than ONE air space in any wall/ceiling/floor ?? (Sorry don't have the book yet :-) ) I wrote:

Why wouldn't you insulate the low end wall space? When I bang against the wall with my hand (maybe it will be my head very soon Smile ) I can hear a relatively long I guess around 45 Hz tone. I don't hear this on the higher walls. Only on this small low end wall. Why is that??

Can anyone say something about this? Where does this tone of the low wall come from? How can I get rid of it? I mean second layer drywall with green glue still to come. But what if the boooom will stay? Thanks!!

Hi guys, it's been some time. But I have made some progress on the studio room! Drywall almost finished. Added a 2nd layer with GG. Good stuff. It really improved the feeling "stability" after 7-10 days. Sealed all of the border and corners of the room. Doing the ceiling right now. See below some pictures. Ro. thanks a lot for the tip again concerning the resilient channel. The Auralex channel is perfect! Looking forward to finalising the room and doing first tests and basstrap treatments. Cu soon!