Help designing a 2nd floor Studio

Location: Western Washington, US Overview: My goal is to design and build a studio on the second floor of an as yet not built garage structure, the only limitations being that one of the external dimensions can be no more than 25 feet in length, and the overall building construction will be "standard" wood frame (no brick or steel frame). Since the first floor will be a garage, the stairs to access the studio will be external. Currently I am in the research and design stage of the project. The studio will be recording live drums and electric instruments, so it will be fairly loud, but the structure will sit on a large property away from neighbors. I took some time to make some mock-ups in 3D Home Architect. One consideration when making these was that the owner of the property intends to do all of the inside construction himself (with my help, of course). He hasn't specified any budget, but I doubt that when he made this once-in-a-lifetime offer he was thinking of room-within-room construction and two doors for every door. But on the other hand, he was very adamant about making it a "real" studio. So my thought is to do standard construction (2x4 studs, 2x6 crossbeams, one layer of Sheetrock on each side, stuffed with OC 703, vaulted ceiling, hardwood flooring, and a minimum of angled walls) and to correct for room modes by adding broadband traps and diffusers. I was thinking of taking advantage of a vaulted ceiling design to use some hanging resonators covered by a faux ceiling cloud of OC 703. Given all of this, I would really appreciate any feedback you could give me on these initial designs. Is it folly to not use the room separation designs? I'm not particularly worried about isolation from outside, but I would like to minimize the chances of the drums bleeding to much into the vocal booth track (a little bleed never hurt anybody). Also, I'm interested in how you know if you need a Slot Resonator in a room, and where you put it. Do you build one and then tune it to the room, or is it a more specific tool?

An update: The proposal has been officially okay'd, and the owner wants some preliminary designs to look at by Friday! I've been looking more around this site, and Blue Bear Sound's studio design is really nice. It would fit within the proposed dimensions as well. Would it be acceptable to more or less copy the design (with some changes), or is that not kosher? If it is okay, is it possible to get some more detailed information regarding the exact treatment systems? Apparently two or three leaf construction with separated and floated walls isn't at all beyond what the owner is willing to do, so now I'm trying to design the absolute best sounding space for the second floor of a 25x40-50 foot structure. Some new requisites are that the bathroom can't be on the Southern length wall (Bottom of the pic), and he wants the studio to have a kitchenette(sink, fridge, and microwave with a couple cabinets). Any help at all, and I would be eternally grateful.

"Apparently two or three leaf construction with separated and floated walls isn't at all beyond what the owner is willing to do" /quote Me personally, I would find out what a leaf is. Then see if I really, really, really had to use three of them.

xSpace wrote:

Me personally, I would find out what a leaf is. Then see if I really, really, really had to use three of them.

You mean the way Adam used leaves? Little Johnny is looking through an old bible and a dried leaf falls out of it. As he stares at it his mother asks "What is it Johnny?" and he replies "I think its Adam's underwear." Andre

That little johnny :)

Cpt Vagabond, What the two forum members are trying to convey to you is that it does not seem like you have a grasp of the concepts involved in order to realistically achieve your loosely stated goals. A little bit more time spent on the plan will result in a successful build. You need to elaborate on this: "2x4 studs, 2x6 crossbeams, one layer of Sheetrock on each side, stuffed with OC 703, vaulted ceiling, hardwood flooring, and a minimum of angled walls" Then you need to think about a whole bunch of other stuff, like fire codes, HVAC, and electrical design. However, before you do all of this, you need to clarify your goals with "the owner of the property" and establish a reasonable budget and timeline. When you have done that, you will get an awful lot of help on these forums. As it stands right now, if "the property owner" wants a real studio, then he should hire a real studio designer. My intentions with this post is not to antagonize, but to help you get what you want.

vonrock wrote:

You need to elaborate on this: "2x4 studs, 2x6 crossbeams, one layer of Sheetrock on each side, stuffed with OC 703, vaulted ceiling, hardwood flooring, and a minimum of angled walls"

The vertical studs used in the construction of the inner walls will be 2" by 4" lumber, most likely procured from a lumber retailer (the lumber retailer most likely having procured the lumber from a wholesale lumber manufacturer; the manufacturer presumably having planed the pieces of wood from a tree that had recently been chopped down in a forest by a lumberjack.) Would you like me to continue?:roll: The only statement in my quote which could be construed as subjective is "a minimum of angled walls". I said this because the plan needs to be simple enough to be built by some ambitious, but nonetheless run-of-the-mill carpenters (pun intended).

Vonrock wrote:

fire codes, HVAC, and electrical design.

I'm fully aware of the additional necessary components of any building, but in order to design the wiring and HVAC systems you must first know the layout of the rooms.

Vonrock wrote:

However, before you do all of this, you need to clarify your goals with "the owner of the property" and establish a reasonable budget and timeline. When you have done that, you will get an awful lot of help on these forums.

The owner of the property came to me with the set of goals, specifically that he is building a studio, he wants me to design it, and he wants me to use it to record his friend's performances (along with anyone else I feel like recording). He's a fairly idiosyncratic individual who's been involved in music for most of his life, and he has many music friends (I being one of them). I think his intent with this space is to give himself and his friends a place to enjoy, make and absorb themselves in music. When I tried to explain the probable expense involved, he dismissed it as a non-issue.

Vonrock wrote:

As it stands right now, if "the property owner" wants a real studio, then he should hire a real studio designer.

As I said, he's a fairly idiosyncratic fellow who prefers a "hands on" approach and doesn't see the point of paying someone to do what we could ourselves with some research. Then again, might this be why members of this forum find surprisingly little help from supposed "professionals" like AVare:

AVare wrote:

You mean the way Adam used leaves? Little Johnny is looking through an old bible and a dried leaf falls out of it. As he stares at it his mother asks "What is it Johnny?" and he replies "I think its Adam's underwear."

You want me to pay you for your advice, rather than get it freely on this forum? If so, the professional etiquette you've shown is really winning me over. Really.

xSpace wrote:

Me personally, I would find out what a leaf is. Then see if I really, really, really had to use three of them.

Most often on this forum the term is used in reference to how many layers of Sheetrock are applied to the surface of a wall, but professionally a single leaf is a wall structure. Two leaf construction would be one wall made of two structures separated by an air gap. At least that's my understanding. Please correct me if I am wrong. In the text you quoted I was using the more colloquial definition to imply how many layers of Sheetrock may be used on the wall surface in contrast to my original intention of only using one layer per surface.

I think what led folks to a particular frame of mind was:

"Apparently two or three leaf construction with separated and floated walls isn't at all beyond what the owner is willing to do"

This seems to indicate you feel either two or three leafs are okay or acceptable, when in fact one is desirable and the other is to be avoided at all cost. To design a studio without knowing this critical difference would be a major risk, as it indicates you have not armed yourself with the basic knowledge of studio construction. It's okay not to know this when you come here; to learn about such things is why most folks come. But proceeding with a design without the fundamentals in your head first is something we would hate to see you do.

and don't forget "...with separated and floated walls". This being an existing overhead space it already got problematic. Identifying individual components of a structure and eliminating folk lore will make your time/build go much smoother/smooth as it can be :)

Cpt Vagabond, I replied to your situation in good faith. Good luck on your build.

vonrock wrote:

Cpt Vagabond, I replied to your situation in good faith. Good luck on your build.

I think the Capin' is writing a book. Maybe doin' a lil' fishin' 'round here?

Vonrock, I apologize if I offended you. I guess I came off a little more snarky than I intended. I am aware that there are some "Internet Tough Guys" on this forum, and often the best way to deal with them is to come out swinging to establish that you won't take any bs. And I'll also admit I've been fairly overwhelmed with having this whole thing placed on my shoulders. I'm a mix engineer, not a studio design engineer, so there's been a whole lot of hard research and studying in a very short time. xSpace, the structure doesn't yet exist. The studio will be on the second floor of the structure, so floating the floors is probably not economical, but I was thinking of building the walls to "float" on neoprene pucks and then of course seal them properly. Is this problematic? And just to clarify after that mess (and to use the proper terminology), the walls will likely be of two leaf construction with 2 layers of 5/8" gypsum on each side. I was thinking of going with a staggered stud approach for most walls, and making double walls just for the live room. I've also been looking into Resilient Channel and Green Glue, and those resilient isolation clips like Kinetic's IsoMax. Are any of these really cost effective for their STC benefit?

xSpace wrote:

I think the Capin' is writing a book. Maybe doin' a lil' fishin' 'round here?

What does that even mean?

CptVagabond wrote:

I'm a mix engineer, not a studio design engineer, so there's been a whole lot of hard research and studying in a very short time. xSpace, the structure doesn't yet exist. The studio will be on the second floor of the structure, so floating the floors is probably not economical, but I was thinking of building the walls to "float" on neoprene pucks and then of course seal them properly. Is this problematic? And just to clarify after that mess (and to use the proper terminology), the walls will likely be of two leaf construction with 2 layers of 5/8" gypsum on each side. I was thinking of going with a staggered stud approach for most walls, and making double walls just for the live room.

xSpace wrote:

I think the Capin' is writing a book. Maybe doin' a lil' fishin' 'round here?

What does that even mean?

It means that you seemed so overwhelmed with info in this thread...but over here (http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewt ... ght=#79712) your spittin' out like it is written on your eyelids! Considering that you already have an existing 2 leaf wall in the building perimeter what are your plans , or rather, how do you plan to incorporate this? And lastly, the problematic part stems from this build being off the ground. Your doing fine boss, I'm just trying to get into the same room and see it the same way you do. I am a carpenter just for the record.

I'm afraid I'm at that horrible intermediate stage where I know just enough to be dangerous. Things like the 38% rule and facing the shorter of the walls is old hat, but ideal room proportions, ratios, and general construction methods are still fresh and require more time to digest. That SAE reference site has been incredibly helpful for me in terms of having visuals to tie to concepts, and I've actually got a copy of Rod Gervais' book waiting in my mailbox downstairs. Think I'll go get it. I realize that the 1st floor garage is basically going to be a giant noise hole, but I also thought floating floors are generally considered unnecessary (is this accurate?). If it's not enough to just stuff the floor joists with insulation, I'm certainly not opposed to having a floating wood floor (concrete is right out). To give you a better idea of where I'm at now, I attached my altered version of Blue Bear's studio along with a new one I started work on today. With the Blue Bear knockoff all the walls would use staggered studs except for the wall between the vocal booth and the live room, which would be built as a double wall. The one I started today uses a lot of double walls, but the area's a little more open feeling. I have no idea if the angles or room sizes / ratios are any good.

As a rule your isolation is only as good as the weakest link...often this is the ceiling. If you design a room or rooms with a double framed wall on one side and a single framed wall on the other, the isolation is reduced. The single framed wall is the weak link in the build. edit: and your images should be at 700 pixels wide:) to prevent side to side scrolling which leads to whiplash.

xSpace wrote:

edit: and your images should be at 700 pixels wide:) to prevent side to side scrolling which leads to whiplash.

:D :D i quite like where your coming from with the design though CptVagabond!! Iain

Thanks, Padded Cell. Of course the design with the 3D model isn't originally mine. I shamelessly stole it from Blue Bear Sound's build (credit where credit's due and all). I think the other design is more suited to the specific needs and goals at hand, and I don't feel as much like a hack because it's original. It's definitely getting closer. In regards to the ceiling, the owner has a stated preference for vaulted ceilings. Should I suggest adding "false" ceilings over the control room and the Iso booth in the new design, for instance? This would make both of those rooms pretty much completely separated from the rest of the structure. The live room seems like it would be a real problem, as it's where the loudest noises happen, and the owner wants it vaulted. Any suggestions for accomplishing this while keeping the transmission to outside low at 40-50 feet from the building? Is an STC of 50-58 good enough for that (I have no mental frame of reference for how perceptions of loud or quiet equate to an STC rating)?