Hello everyone, this really is a great site, I've just joined today but have been reading through some great threads for weeks. I have been searching for floating floors but have not found the information that I need so I wonder if you can help me?
I am just starting to understand how acoustics are so very important in turning out a good recording & so have been building some basstraps, but have been toying with the idea of building an isolation booth for some time. I live above neighbours that are very tolerant about sound levels & and I am a relatively quiet drummer but I'd still like to take steps to reduce noise.
Basically I understand the concept behind a floating floor. I will hopefully be building something along the lines of this:
---------drums-----------
--------Plywood----------
-----Sterling Board------
-Rocksilk RS45 100mm-
-----Sterling Board------
-----Carpeted Floor-----
I will be seperating the two sheet layers sandwitching the Rocksilk with spaced blocks (2"x2") resting on neoprene.
Now, the floating floor is necessary just now to take away any mechanical noise that may be transferring downstairs. I cannot afford to build the full isolation booth at the moment & will have to contact my landlord when I have finalised plans for it so that he'll "ok" it. It may be too heavy a construction, but it is an old building with thick walls & sturdy joists, so I can't see there being a problem.
My plans are basically to have a small room internally 2mx2m but I don't know how to connect the floating floor to the walls. I mean - would you build the floor slightly bigger & then build the walls directly on top of the floating floor? Is it best for the walls to connect with the bottom sheet of sterling board & to keep the top "floating" board unconnected, or at least connected with some neoprene?
I think you can understand my hesitation in going ahead with the floating floor as I don't want to build it & then when I can finally complete the isolation booth find that the floor is not equipt for integration into the rest of my plans.
Also, I was toying with the idea of a plasterboard sheets between the rockwool & the timber sheeting, there wouldn't be any pressure on it, but would this really make any difference in isolation?
Thanks, Brian
Building a Floating Floor
Originally posted at johnlsayers.com, topic 10824.
Ignoring the need part, what is "sterling board"? It seems that you are building a triple leaf:
plywood (leaf one)
sterling board (leaf one)
insulation
sterling board (leaf two)
carpet
original floor (leaf three)
Andre
Sorry, the existing floor is carpeted & I'm not wanting the rocksilk to rest directly on top of the carpet. It's not my flat & I would like the rosksilk to be contained. The sterling (OSB) board is low cost chipboard. Plywood is pretty expensive!!
http://www.stoketimber.co.uk/html/osb__ ... board.html
Plywood (12 X 2440 X 1220) £23
Sterling (11 X 2440 X 1220) £8
Are you intending to build a frame as this would give a housing for the insulation. You could then add whatever mass you are going to add to the top of the new floor. Put the neoprene pads on the bottom of the frame.
Yeah I was going to build a frame for the walls at least, I was also going to stagger the insulation. I didn't think about building a frame for the floor, but again I really need to know how much is going to be bearing doen on the floor. If the isolation booth will be connected to the top of the floating floor, a framed floor would probably be needed due to the additional weight.Are you intending to build a frame as this would give a housing for the insulation. You could then add whatever mass you are going to add to the top of the new floor. Put the neoprene pads on the bottom of the frame.
You need to read up on your plans and work out whats best for your situation, the reference section has a good amount of information on building floating floors. Can you post a basic plan of where you are building and what you would like in the long run. I'd suspect that your downstairs neighbour has a ceiling to consider as well, in determing how many leafs between the flooor and his space you need to know this. If I was you I'd try and design the whole space first and then build your floor first with walls sitting on your floating floor later. Good luck and read on through as much here as you can.
Second what clunk wrote. If you build the floor and do not add the weight of the walls and ceiling, the sound transmission will be worse. If you build for without the walls and ceiling, when you add them the ST will be worse.
Andre
ok, what I'll do is design everything to my best ability using sketchup & the knowledge I've gained from reading through the forum, then hopefully everything'll be a little easier to explain.
Thanks for now :D
guys can you at least point me towards a few threads that have diagrams of the type of construction I'm looking to build? I have looked through loads & they're too heavy theory wise. I really need to see a diagram to understand what's going on & the diagrams I've seen are built on concrete & the situation is pretty different.
I mean I'm asking for your help because you all are experts in your field or whatever, but I write for all instruments, perform all instruments, record them, mix and gig all of my own material. My brain is seizing up with this, it's heavy going & I don't have enough time or brain power to become an expert in studio construction. I know you all get irritated by someone new coming on & asking the same old questions but at the end of the day I'm a musician relatively low on cash, with very little time to spare, I've tried to read up on this subject & have gained some basic understanding. I mean I've been a member of home recording bbs for years & even if someone new comes on and asks something thats been asked a million times unlike a few HR members - I won't direct them toward the reference section, I'll communicate with them. I mean forum's are not just elabourate databases are they?
All this stuff may be simple to you but it's difficult when you are new to *everything* in a particular subject. I have the added difficulty in trying to find UK equivelent materials which cost more as well.
It comes down to - if you guy's arent willing to help because you consider this thread hackneyed or below you, I'm just going to give up because it's frustrating me and putting me off song writing & nothing is worth it when that starts to happen.
Sorry to be so blunt, but hey I'm needing advice :)
Look at gullfo's drum riser in Sketchup's 3D Warehouse. It sounds like that's what you're building, almost, so it might help.
That's the ticket!Look at gullfo's drum riser in Sketchup's 3D Warehouse. It sounds like that's what you're building, almost, so it might help.
I've seen that type of design before from SOS, but it won't be stable enough for building walls on. This is the real problem, I don't know how to connect the walls & ceiling. I was also told that the transmission could even be worse if the walls are not connected to the top of the floating floor when I eventually complete the booth, which is difficult to understand to be honest!!
Brian you give so little information on your build that it is impossible for any of the experts to give you expert advice. You need to provide adequate information on what you are building, where and how it might impact on others and how others might impact on you.
Basic drawings of the room and your intended build would help, also people need to know about the floor that your constuction will sit on and what is below it, what level of weight can you put in your build. It is not passing the buck to ask you to do a little of this first, it is after all you who needs the help not those that respond to you. I am no expert just someone who tries to share what I have learnt through my own reading on the forum. Ultimately you need to put the effort in just as so many others using this forum have, if you don't want to or feel others should do all your work for you then so be it, guess whats best for you and proceed through trial and error.
Sorry about that, i thought i gave enough info in my original post, I'll collect as much info as I can then post it. Don't get me wrong I spent a load of time trying to come up with a design. I drew it all up on sketch up. But it was based on info on the internet & I was abviousley looking at the wrong sources (I thought absorbsion & isolation were the same thing). I've attached my failure. It may look simple but it was completely my own design so it was extremely annoying to find it would not work. I had to come up with something that was easilly taken apart & built but I realise this is no longer possible due to my budget. I'll get back to you!!Brian you give so little information on your build that it is impossible for any of the experts to give you expert advice. You need to provide adequate information on what you are building, where and how it might impact on others and how others might impact on you. Basic drawings of the room and your intended build would help, also people need to know about the floor that your constuction will sit on and what is below it, what level of weight can you put in your build. It is not passing the buck to ask you to do a little of this first, it is after all you who needs the help not those that respond to you. I am no expert just someone who tries to share what I have learnt through my own reading on the forum. Ultimately you need to put the effort in just as so many others using this forum have, if you don't want to or feel others should do all your work for you then so be it, guess whats best for you and proceed through trial and error.
Even though it might be somewhat irrelevant when looking at things from a "solving my problems through free information" -perspective; Buying one or more of the books that are hinted of here in the forums, could be good idea.
I can assure you. It is money well spent, especially when some of the authors frequent this forum.
I figure, if I can spend £6.000 - £7.000 on my studio project. I can afford to squander £25 on a book. If you know what I mean...
/Gash
Ps. Even if you do not have a budget in excess of thousands of pounds, a £25 book is still kind of affordable.
Does this seem familiar?
It is from this sticky right at the top of this forum. AndreHow will you ensure that your floating floor will actually float? In order to connect two things to each other without the connection point being a bridge for energy to travel across, there must be an elastic polymer ("elastomer"), a spring-like rubber substance. DuPont's "Neoprene" and ethylene propylene diene monomer (EPDM) rubber are commonly referenced in floating floor designs and other engineered acoustic isolation construction devices. Imagine putting a 15 pound weight on a spring that "bottoms out" at 10 pounds. The spring is completely compressed. The weight is unable to bounce on this overloaded spring, and therefore is not isolated from the surface below. The same holds true of a lighter weight upon a heavier grade spring. Imagine a 10 pound weight on a spring that does not begin to compress until the weight reaches 15 pounds. The weight is too light to cause the spring to compress, so it too is unable to bounce, and is therefore again not isolated from the surface below. Now, imagine an entire room floating on springs made of rubber pucks. How do the rubber pucks deflect under the loads of the room? Are parts of the floor loaded more heavily than others? Are the walls erected on top of the floor, and if so, is the weight of the ceiling overhead transferred to those walls? If so, the perimeter of the room is much heavier than its unfurnished middle. How many pucks should be used? How far apart should they be positioned? Should they be closer around the perimeter to account for the additional weight of the walls and ceiling? How much closer? Should the elastomers around the perimeter be harder/stronger so as to handle the additional weight? What about the dynamic loads of the varying number of people and gear that will be inside the room? What about the lifespan of the elastomers under the loads -- how long will they last before they lose their elasticity and "bottom out," rendering them useless? These are not easy questions to answer! Yet we often see cases where people either do not think of these questions, do not take them seriously when asked, or resort to guesswork when attempting to answer them! The fact is, a floating floor that is not engineered to account for all of the above questions is most likely doomed to fail to meet its designer's intentions. Couple this issue with the resonance frequency issue described previously, and you would almost certainly end up in an unenviable position of being worse off than if you had not attempted to float at all.
Please don't get the wrong idea about me!! I would have bought : "Home Recording Studio Construction: B - Gervais, Rodney" A while ago I had talked to someone on HR about the book and he had said that it's more for larger scale constructions & a little too in depth theory wise. He recommended to me that I should forget about it & just learn off of forums. PS You should see my library if you think I lack dedication - Time & monetary wise!! ALL of my money goes into making music. I don't go out other than to gig & eat the bare essentials to survive - so please get facts right before getting on my back ok!!Even though it might be somewhat irrelevant when looking at things from a "solving my problems through free information" -perspective; Buying one or more of the books that are hinted of here in the forums, could be good idea. I can assure you. It is money well spent, especially when some of the authors frequent this forum. I figure, if I can spend £6.000 - £7.000 on my studio project. I can afford to squander £25 on a book. If you know what I mean... /Gash Ps. Even if you do not have a budget in excess of thousands of pounds, a £25 book is still kind of affordable.
Yes it's familiar because I've read it andre, if resonance is a problem shouldn't altering the tuning of my drums remove that problem? Can I build it safely? Like I said I'm going to have to show my plans to the landlord & he'll ok it or not. It's an old building, in scotland old buildings are usually very sturdy but I can't rip up the floor to tell you all what it's made of!! My neighbour below me has just found out the state of his building's extention floor. He pulled the floor boards up from while trying to run a power to a new socket & found the most shocking wiring I've ever seen anyway. I guess he won't know what makes up his ceiling or my floor or his main floor!! How will you ensure that your floating floor will actually float? Well like I said I find it difficult to understand if resonance is not a problem (after tuning drums to be outwith those resonant frequencies). Mabye I've got this all wrong I don't know, but perhaps it's down to being pointed toward information which has been absorbed but not fully understood? PS mobile internet especially paying by the mb is not free, all I'm asking for is your help lads :)Does this seem familiar?It is from this sticky right at the top of this forum. AndreHow will you ensure that your floating floor will actually float? In order to connect two things to each other without the connection point being a bridge for energy to travel across, there must be an elastic polymer ("elastomer"), a spring-like rubber substance. DuPont's "Neoprene" and ethylene propylene diene monomer (EPDM) rubber are commonly referenced in floating floor designs and other engineered acoustic isolation construction devices. Imagine putting a 15 pound weight on a spring that "bottoms out" at 10 pounds. The spring is completely compressed. The weight is unable to bounce on this overloaded spring, and therefore is not isolated from the surface below. The same holds true of a lighter weight upon a heavier grade spring. Imagine a 10 pound weight on a spring that does not begin to compress until the weight reaches 15 pounds. The weight is too light to cause the spring to compress, so it too is unable to bounce, and is therefore again not isolated from the surface below. Now, imagine an entire room floating on springs made of rubber pucks. How do the rubber pucks deflect under the loads of the room? Are parts of the floor loaded more heavily than others? Are the walls erected on top of the floor, and if so, is the weight of the ceiling overhead transferred to those walls? If so, the perimeter of the room is much heavier than its unfurnished middle. How many pucks should be used? How far apart should they be positioned? Should they be closer around the perimeter to account for the additional weight of the walls and ceiling? How much closer? Should the elastomers around the perimeter be harder/stronger so as to handle the additional weight? What about the dynamic loads of the varying number of people and gear that will be inside the room? What about the lifespan of the elastomers under the loads -- how long will they last before they lose their elasticity and "bottom out," rendering them useless? These are not easy questions to answer! Yet we often see cases where people either do not think of these questions, do not take them seriously when asked, or resort to guesswork when attempting to answer them! The fact is, a floating floor that is not engineered to account for all of the above questions is most likely doomed to fail to meet its designer's intentions. Couple this issue with the resonance frequency issue described previously, and you would almost certainly end up in an unenviable position of being worse off than if you had not attempted to float at all.
sorry for getting the wrong end of the stick gash
I am really sorry you interpreted me the way you did. I was trying to give you further ideas on getting ahead with your construction. I am a novice at this myself so I know exactly what you mean and where you are comming from.
When I wrote "using free information etc..." I actually meant that in the best sense possible. I feel very strongly for the open source and open information movement and feel that sharing what you know with others through forums like this is indeed part of the future.
I am not a frequent user of the funny looking smiley-faces, maybe that serves to my disadvantage when trying to convey the heart of the matter. It was never my point to offend.
/Gash
right ok, i'll get the drawings done for you like I said, to pick over, (if i haven't offended you all & you're still interested in helping) :oops:
I'm overworked and had read quite a few threads on this very subject where newbies hadn't bothered reading up before starting their project. It's a given that they were... told off!! I automatically assumed this was heppening to me when I really did read up!! I wasn't sure how much or what information you were needing, but I'll leave this thread just now & when I have time I'll come back with hopefully all the information needed.
Sorry about that :D
Since it seems to be on popular demand to use Neoprene pucks/pads/whatever, to "float" floors/rooms, I will take it upon myself to work out a somewhat simple way to calculate thickness and distribution for implementation into some generic situation.
It will of course be a rough estimate, cutting corners when possible. It will not be scientifically (spelling?!) applicable in a strict sense. And as such, experienced professionals (wow, nice buzz words) may not approve.
Once it is done I will make a new thread and post it. Should be interesting to see what others have to say about it.
/Gash
Ain't nothing to worry about. One of the ways to help someone to help you...is to give them enough information so that when discussing the structure that is being built into, BOTH parties know with a large degree of certainty what it is that you refer to. Most anytime in any residential structure that you try to build an isolated area you are going to have issues. Airborne and structure related transmission of vibration get priority in the design stage. And moving the project upstairs only increases the flanking borne and load concerns. Often you just have to settle for what you have...or move downstairs or somewhere else completely especially in a rental situation. Do you have windows? Where are they? How many and what size? Bet you didn't think this was going to even be a concern ;) What you are looking at doing, building a booth to play drums in, is a big deal! Actually it is less of an isolation "booth" and more of a room. What it is you are thinking of will most likely not be transportable either :) Then you will have fresh air in/out considerations, electrical, etc. So it is important, to you first, to know what it is that you are trying to do. That way you are better equipped to convey that message to someone that may be interested in helping you to achieve this goal that has information in areas that you may not. See what I mean? Right now, no one can really say boo about what you are doing because you know all the information about your thoughts on this project. Know one else does. But there are some talented agents around here willing, if not a little grumpy and crass, to give you what it took them 30 years to amass. Good luck, BrienSorry about that :D
Ok no problem, brien. I'll design a sketchup model of my recording room aswell. As long as the booth can be taken apart & the materials recycled It'll be fine. I'm ok with ventilation & electrical design, I've seen quite a few examples of how it can be done. I actually consider that the easy part :o , especially after this new rally of info I'm recieving now!!
Brian, bying the book is not a prerequisite to getting assistance here - not from me or anyone else, but you were given some bad information. I don't know who told you what you were told (and really don't care) but my book was written specifically so that laymen could come to terms with the acoustics involved in both isolation and room design/treatment (INCLUDING FLOATING FLOORS - along with the pros - cons and myths related to them) without the need of understnading any of the math involved. Granted you do have to have some sort of an understanding about construction - I am not attempting to teach anyone how to frame a wall - or how to layout studs - what a header is - or any of the hundreds of thousands of things that go into constructing a building. It's about how to achieve isolation - what to watch out for with electric services - an understanding of HVAC with studio specific points being made - and a lot of details and drawings to go along with it. So - if you don't have an understanding of construction itself- and purchased my book thinking it would explain that along the way - then it would be lacking. But anyone who looked at the explanation of the book itself would see what it was about if they took the time to actually think about it. And there are already plenty of good books (much better than any I could write I am sure) that explain basic construction techniques - I recommend people buy one of them as well as mine. As far as this goes:Please don't get the wrong idea about me!! I would have bought : "Home Recording Studio Construction: B - Gervais, Rodney" A while ago I had talked to someone on HR about the book and he had said that it's more for larger scale constructions & a little too in depth theory wise. He recommended to me that I should forget about it & just learn off of forums.
You can tune the drums any way you want - but if your floor is a drum head it is a drum head - and it can resonate at it's own frequency while being driven to do so fromfrequencies not it's own. You're a drummer right? Haven't you even noticed your snare drum resonating from many different bass guitar notes - just because of the volume of the bass and the angle of it's speakers related to your drums? (The snare is the easiest to notice because of the snares rattling). The same thing can happen with a poorly designed floating deck......... It's very difficult (if not impossible) to get a wood deck to have a resonant frequency of about 10 Hz and that's just about where it needs to be in order for there to be no problem. It takes a lot of mass to achieve that........... a whole lot........... Sincerely, RodHow will you ensure that your floating floor will actually float? Well like I said I find it difficult to understand if resonance is not a problem (after tuning drums to be outwith those resonant frequencies). Mabye I've got this all wrong I don't know, but perhaps it's down to being pointed toward information which has been absorbed but not fully understood?