Sketchup Acoustic Treatment Design - Advice/Opinions Please

Hi everyone. First post, long time lurker. I'd personally like to thank Ethan Winer, John Sayers, Glenn Kuras, and many other acoustic experts who provide a wealth of free information on the internet. I have been educating myself on acoustics for the past few months. I've read pretty much every referenced URL, forum post, etc. I've spent a whole lot of time studying, researching, and designing this acoustic treatment for my studio. Room Information -This is on the 3rd floor of my 1968 Manhattan styled townhome (the separating walls are paper thin :() -My office/studio is roughly 12' W x 20' L x 7.5' H (although it is much more awkwardly shaped) -All walls are standard residential drywall -Floor is brand new slightly above average residential carpet -Ceiling is drywall or "popcorn" ceiling ;) Materials I will save the major details for a DIY thread but here is a basic list -At least 24 panels of John Mansville 814 rigid fiberglass. Each panel is 24" x 48" x 2" -Pine wood frames -Burlap Fabric for covering -Current design uses only 2 types of panels I plan on building: 24" x 48" x 2" absorbers and 24" x 48" x 4" bass traps. (This could change based off of any suggestions you all may have) Budget Well I pretty much put together a budget on the rigid fiberglass itself. All other materials aren't a concern right now. The current pricing I am getting from a vendor is $1.09 per square foot. This comes out to around $230 for 24 fiberglass panels (including tax). I am buying a minimum of 24 fiberglass panels but can manage to buy a few more if necessary. Studio Tasks -Mixing -Recording with a mic -Primarily vocals -Acoustic Guitar -Some electric guitar and electric bass -Rarely a few other instruments such as violin, cello, wind instruments -*NO full percussion (as of yet :))* Concerns -Acoustical balance of stereo imaging -Quality of vocal recordings in proposed recording area -Awkward room dimensions that only makes treating this room more challenging :) Notes about drawings and pictures -Moving my recording/mixing area to the other side of the room is not an option. My neighbors have many many kids and are obnoxiously loud; causing frequent bangs, running noises, etc throughout the night. -The area to the left of the mixing position is currently a closet with mirror sliding doors. I will be removing these doors to make to provide myself more room for recording a decent mixing position. -Back of the room has an identical closet shape/ mirror doors. I plan to keep these on since this closet has my clothes in it :D. -The desk at the back of the room is my wife's. The top of it is glass and the rest is wood/aluminum -All sketchup drawings are X-ray which allows you get a better overall view of the entire room setup. -Every single item including walls, door, windows, piano, desks, panels, have been scaled to exact size (Sketchup is so damn cool :D). -All black panels are 4" bass traps which have also been labeled in each screenshot -All tan panels are 2" broadband absorbers which have also been labeled in each screenshot Goal -To create an optimal recording and mixing environment within the alloted budget. Google Sketchup Drawings Studio with no acoustic treatment Studio with treatment angle 1 Studio with treatment angle 2 Studio with treatment closer angle of mixing/recording area 1 Studio with treatment closer angle of mixing/recording area 2 Top view of studio with treatment Photo of back closet that will remain the same Photo of door entrance and stupid corner :) Photo of closet to the left of mixing position (doors to be ripped out). And yes...that is a ghetto vocal booth setup in there with moving blankets :lol: Photo of closet ceiling corner area to the left of mixing position Photo of closet to the left of mixing position (doors to be ripped out) Notes -I haven't moved or built anything yet so I am open to all suggestions. -I have at least 24 fiberglass panels to work with so I can easily sacrifice 2 2" absorbers, from my design, and create a 4" bass trap if any of you feel that it would be more beneficial. -I cannot cover the windows with any treatment. My wife made it clear that she didn't want to be living in a recording bat cave :lol: -I don't have a whole of options for a different mix position due to not being able to use the other side of the room -I cannot move my mix position 38% (it's somewhat close) back because I would be blocking the entrance. The left and right walls of the mix position would also be totally disproportional. -I own this house so I can do anything I want to it! :) Questions -Do I need to sacrifice some 2" thick panels for more bass trapping in the "corner hell" area to the left of the mixing position? -When recording should I face the microphone towards this heavily acoustically treated corner or away? (reference the current microphone placement in the sketchup drawings) -Will the glass-topped desk at the back of the room act more as a diffuser reflective aid? Should I move it to sit next to the windows instead? Keep in mind it's not all glass -Since my room is carpeted should I not worry about concentrating on more wall-to-ceiling corner bass trapping? -Do you recommend a larger (in width/length) mixing cloud? It's currently 1 24" x 48" x 2" panel. -Do you recommend cloud treatment around the "recording corner" area versus what I currently have designed? I know this is alot of information but I tried to follow all the guidelines and want to as much feedback as possible :). To get as much feedback as I can, I have posted this on a few other forums. If you happen to respond on one of those don't worry about commenting if you see it on another forum. Thank you to ANYONE who responds and please know that your knowledge and help does not go unappreciated! My Google sketchup file can be downloaded here (it may be easier to get a better understanding of the design by loading this in sketchup): http://pantsofninja.com/studio/studio-3 ... panels.skp Thanks!

would it be possible to switch your mix position to the other end where things are more symetrical? maybe but some rfz panels on stands where the sliding doors are?

would it be possible to switch your mix position to the other end where things are more symetrical? maybe but some rfz panels on stands where the sliding doors are?

mike0370 wrote:

would it be possible to switch your mix position to the other end where things are more symetrical? maybe but some rfz panels on stands where the sliding doors are?

Unfortunately this isn't really an option for me due my EXTREMELY loud neighbors on that side of my townhome :( I don't think I have the budget to build RFZ panels at this time but I will definitely take that option into consideration down the road. Thanks for the reply!

Hello everyone! I Just thought I'd post an update along with hopefully 1 final question :D First of all, I know some of you are going to kill me, but I got one hell of a deal on 2" JM 814 fiberglass! Our office was moving to a new building last month and I happened to notice some construction workers using the exact fiberglass I was planning on purchasing. I asked about taking or buying any scraps that they had and a worker mentioned that he had boxes and boxes of un-used JM 814 at home that he'll sell to me. Well...The final deal was 6 boxes (6 2" FSK sheets per box) of JM 814 FSK for......$115! Woo hoo! Total of 36 sheets! This would have costed me $300 through the only local reseller here in Denver. Ok, I had to let all of you know what a deal I got. Since I acquired many more panels then I was planning on I re-designed my studio slightly. I added some more absorption on the ceiling, vocal area, and in the rear of the room. Here are some updated sketchup pictures: Vocal corner: Back of room: Birds eye view: I've done alot of online research on using FRK/FSK and it seems to only be beneficial when used in bass traps straddling corners with only 1 sheet of FSK facing the wall. Experts are saying that doing this allows the higher frequencies to not be so dead. Considering my room is pretty small I am unsure of using this method or not. I definitely want alot of absorption in the front of the room where mixing/recording will occur. The only good place I can see using the FSK is in the back of the room (2nd picture) on all bass traps straddling wall/wall & wall/ceiling corners. From what I understand; higher frequencies have a shorter wave length. So allowing some moderate high frequency absorption in the back of the room would probably create a more natural sound versus a totally dead sound. So in other words, should I use the FSK on all corner bass traps in the room? only the rear bass traps? none of the bass traps? Thanks for all the help so far! Google Sketchup file: http://pantsofninja.com/studio_sketchup ... 1-gobo.skp

I really don't think much use to use FRK panels on such a room. Why don't you place a curtain dividing those rooms, for instance ?

andrebrito wrote:

I really don't think much use to use FRK panels on such a room. Why don't you place a curtain dividing those rooms, for instance ?

Would you mind explaining why I would add a curtain in this room? I don't understand how this would help with my design. Thanks.

FRK panels can work fine. Point the FRK into the room for corner-mounted panels, or any panel where you want better bass trapping, and high frequency reflections aren't a concern. The FRK will have 2 effects: it will be semi-reflective at higher frequencies (good for not over-deadening a room), and it will give you a membrane effect, with more bass trapping below 100Hz. For panels at reflection points, point the FRK away from the room. If the 2" panels are FRK, and you are stacking them for thicker panels, then you'll probably want to peel off the FRK before stacking them together (possibly keeping the FRK on the top panel pointing into the room, if applicable). If it were me, I'd only peel off the FRK ONLY for panels at first reflection points, on the side walls, ceiling, and rear wall. Possibly the ones on the side walls at the rear, if you want a deader recording space. All other panels (including all corner mounted panels, even at the front of the room), I'd leave on the FRK for the increased bass trapping. Also, I'd use 2 panels on the rear wall above the keyboard, not just 1. Possibly move the panel at the center of the front wall (leaving the 2 panels behind the speakers), so you can put 2 panels on the front and rear walls. There is often a bass buildup at the rear wall, so more panels will help with that.

jwl wrote:

FRK panels can work fine. Point the FRK into the room for corner-mounted panels, or any panel where you want better bass trapping, and high frequency reflections aren't a concern. The FRK will have 2 effects: it will be semi-reflective at higher frequencies (good for not over-deadening a room), and it will give you a membrane effect, with more bass trapping below 100Hz. For panels at reflection points, point the FRK away from the room. If the 2" panels are FRK, and you are stacking them for thicker panels, then you'll probably want to peel off the FRK before stacking them together (possibly keeping the FRK on the top panel pointing into the room, if applicable). If it were me, I'd only peel off the FRK ONLY for panels at first reflection points, on the side walls, ceiling, and rear wall. Possibly the ones on the side walls at the rear, if you want a deader recording space. All other panels (including all corner mounted panels, even at the front of the room), I'd leave on the FRK for the increased bass trapping. Also, I'd use 2 panels on the rear wall above the keyboard, not just 1. Possibly move the panel at the center of the front wall (leaving the 2 panels behind the speakers), so you can put 2 panels on the front and rear walls. There is often a bass buildup at the rear wall, so more panels will help with that.

Thanks for the reply jwl! I think you may have been looking at my very first and old post. I actually updated the design in my more recent post with pictures. That is interesting, I believe I have read from multiple resources that it's more effective to have the FRK facing the wall for corner bass traps versus facing the room. Besides the trap being more "semi-reflective" is there any other benefit to have the FRK facing the room? Will it still act as more of a membrane if facing the wall? I only ask this not because I don't trust you but I don't want to it to be too reflective. Thanks!

You will only get the membrane effect if the FRK is facing into the room. That alone is reason enough to do it, it will increase your bass trapping under 100Hz, noticeably. I wouldn't worry about the room being too reflective. With the number of panels you are installing, it will be MUCH deader than what it is now. I was looking at the last photo you posted, the birds-eye view, with 3 panels flat on the front wall and 1 on the rear wall. I'd go 2 on each wall, personally.

jwl wrote:

You will only get the membrane effect if the FRK is facing into the room. That alone is reason enough to do it, it will increase your bass trapping under 100Hz, noticeably. I wouldn't worry about the room being too reflective. With the number of panels you are installing, it will be MUCH deader than what it is now. I was looking at the last photo you posted, the birds-eye view, with 3 panels flat on the front wall and 1 on the rear wall. I'd go 2 on each wall, personally.

Ok thank you for clarifying. I actually have 1 last question. The 3' x 5' Gobo I plan on building is just going to be entirely wrapped in burlap around the front AND back. I notice some people have covered the entire back with a piece of plywood. I don't want place a piece of plywood on the back unless if their is a very good reason to. Do you see anything wrong with just wrapping the panel in burlap with no plywood backing? Thank you.