acoustic treatment quote

hi john, i'm in the process of writing a business plan for a studio i intend to put up in morocco, and i'm missing some key figures for the investors. i have a good idea of the construction / rental / gear costs etc but what i can't seem to find in these forums (or anywhere on the net for that matter) is reliable quotes for acoustic treatment. have not yet chosen a location, but it will most likely be a small - medium sized facility with only one live room and one iso booth. 100 square meteres or less total. here are the dimensions i have in mind for the production areas. (the bathroom / office / lounge / hallways etc are not important for my question) Control Room – 6m X 5m (*X 3m) Live Room (including 2m X2m isolation booth) – 6m X 6m (*X 3m) * minimum ceiling height of 3 meters for Control & Live Rooms the floor plans may look something like the "blue bear" or "left bank" plans i found on your site in another thread--just to give you an idea of type of acoustic treatmet i'm planning to build into the construction/renovation. (i'm not asking about construction costs because here in morocco it's a totally different ballgame--prices for labour and materials are much cheaper and i can source them on my own.) what i need to know is this: 1) what materials would you reccommend for general acoustic treatment in the production areas? bear in mind that ALL buildings here in morocco are made from stone or concrete, with an average wall thickness of 40-50cm. sticking with stone walls is the cheapest method for me to partion space if i end up with a large space that needs dividing, so would prefer to do it that way and then treat the rooms accordingly afterword. may also end up with a stone house or villa that will be renovated for studio use. also bear in mind that i prefer a reflective surface (wood or linolium usually, but perhaps stone in this case.) for the floor in the live room. (can always dampen with area rugs after if desired--and there are some beautiful area rugs to be found in morocco as you can imagine!) so, as stated above, i don't need the cost of basic materials from you, as prices will be much different in morcco--just looking for reccomendations on what materials i should use. 2) whith properly designed production rooms that have already taken modes & reflection into account, how much (ballpark) will the acoustic treatments such as noise panels for absorption and diffusion methods cost? (other than those built into the design...) i'm not talking about installation, as my team here will take care of that--i need only the price of materials. (and shipping costs from europe or north america if you happen to have an idea.) hope that's enough info to give to a good idea of what i'm after. any help arriving at a ballpark figure woyld be greatly appreciated. thanks! - steve :)

umm... nobody!? maybe i put too much detail in the 1st post--i'll slim it down. ROOM DIMENSIONS Control Room – 6m X 5m (*X 3m) Live Room (including 2m X2m isolation booth) – 6m X 6m (*X 3m) *both rooms all stone/concrete construction. 1) what material's and methods would you recommend for acoustic treatment in each room? (absorption, diffusion, reflection etc) 2) what's a ballpark figure for the materials needed to for these treatments? just trying to start a dialogue to get ideas... all opinions welcome! - s:)

sound_music wrote:

1) what material's and methods would you recommend for acoustic treatment in each room? (absorption, diffusion, reflection etc)

That sort of info is all over this forum. Below is my standard reply. As for cost, it could be as little as $1,000 US for DIY materials with you doing the legwork, to maybe $20,000 for a full complement of commercial products with full advice and guidance from the treatment vendor. --Ethan -------------------- Room treatment is a deep subject, and a complete answer requires far more than will fit into a single reply here. So here's the short version. All rooms need: * Broadband (not tuned) bass traps straddling as many corners as you can manage, including the wall-ceiling corners. More bass traps on the rear wall behind helps even further. You simply cannot have too much bass trapping. Real bass trapping, that is - thin foam and thin fiberglass don't work to a low enough frequency. * Mid/high frequency absorption at the first reflection points on the side walls and ceiling. * Some additional amount of mid/high absorption and/or diffusion on any large areas of bare parallel surfaces, such as opposing walls or the ceiling if the floor is reflective. Diffusion on the rear wall behind you is also useful in larger rooms. For the complete story see my Acoustics FAQ. There's a lot of additional non-sales technical information on my company's site - articles, videos, test tones and other downloads - in my sig below.

in fact i haven't found a single post yet concerning stone room treatment, that's why i'm asking here! although i've worked in alot of studios i've never built one myself--and especially not in a stone cave! (in canada or the us wood construction with drywall are far more common...) and of course the costs vary widely--that's an easy answer to give--but above i layed out the room dimensions and even referenced a couple of floor plans that incorporate alot of diffusion/dispersion methods in the construction. all i'm looking for is an estimate or average cost for rooms of this size and type, taking into account the stone factor. i realize without exact blueprints this is difficult, but i figured there's enough expertise in this forum that some kind of ballpark figure could be achieved with a litte thought and creativity... and maybe even some suggestions to keep the costs down. i don't have a million dollars to work with, and if i need to fly in a consultant that's gonna hurt me in other areas wher the cash is sorely needed for gear etc. someone post what they need from me in terms of further information and i'll do my best to provide it! i'll be very grateful to anyone that can help with my specific situation... thanks for reading this! - steve :)

You are asking for specifics with too vague information. For stone walls search for concrete, brick, cmu (Concrete Masonry Unit ), etc. walls and studios. There have been several posts and build threads with this type of construction. The biggest difference acoustically between that and drywall is that drywall construction absorbs low frequencies while stone does not. You will need more and/or deeper bass traps. Absorption is done with thick fluffy type material. Mineral wool, rockwool, fiberglass, shredded denim, recycled cotton, are all used depending on price availability. Diffusion is normally done with wood or closed cell plastics. Depending on material and labour prices you may find it cheaper to have it into your walls. Are you doing the labour yourself or paying for it? Professional designers can work by the internet and not have to fly in, if you are willing to answer their questions. Either study ALOT and ask a lot of questions understanding answers and answering further questions, and use the search function or pay for a professional to design it for you. Blue Bear cost $62,000 with the outer shell (basement) already in place. What seems to be the informal standard in several threads is $100,000. The most realistic generalization I know of is to price high end home building costs ad add 25%. Even that is vague. When people ask for specifics, give them if you want progress in your search for information. Your comment about not having a million dollars is meaningless. That will buy a two bedroom apartment in Manhattan, or a luxury home in Tennessee. Andre

andre, as you can see, i'm not much of a internet poster or an acoustics specialist--i'm a music guy, so this stuff is all new to me. i'm not interested in the finer points of acoustic theory, i just want a room that sounds good to record in, and a control room environment that doesn't play any tricks. in other words--i want to be sure i'm hearing what's actually there. since this is my first time designing a space, i have no idea what it costs to achieve this from the acoustics point of view.

You are asking for specifics with too vague information.

if the room dimensions, a sample floor plan, and the building's principal material type (stone) are considered "vague", what more do you need to know!? please advise!

Are you doing the labour yourself or paying for it?

paying for it.

Professional designers can work by the internet and not have to fly in, if you are willing to answer their questions.

a) good to know. for all the trouble it's proving to be to get any straight answers here i'll probably go that route. b) i'm willing to answer any questions at all times about anything at all. the problem is that no one's asking any. in the two responses i've had so far, it seems the gurus here are far more interested in telling me how much i dont know rather than asking any constructiove questions about my situation.

The most realistic generalization I know of is to price high end home building costs ad add 25%. Even that is vague.

THANK YOU! sincerely, that's the first piece of useful information i've garnered from this thread that pertains to pricing. sure it's vague, but at least gives me numbers to chase down. don't forget i'm writing an assesment for the investors--that's all they care about at this stage: HOW MUCH DOES IT COST?

Your comment about not having a million dollars is meaningless. That will buy a two bedroom apartment in Manhattan, or a luxury home in Tennessee.

i beg to differ. with all due respect, your analogy is meaningless. we all try to do the best with the resources we have at our disposal. budget constraints are a huge consideration--especially when you're spending other people's money. i take that responsibility very seriously. [/quote]

Your first mistake Steve: "i'm in the process of writing a business plan for a studio i intend to put up in morocco, and i'm missing some key figures for the investors. i have a good idea of the construction / rental / gear costs etc but what i can't seem to find in these forums (or anywhere on the net for that matter) is reliable quotes for acoustic treatment. " Then you ask for free stuff :) JohnSayers posters give away time, information and help on a regular day-to-day basis, gratis, zilch. So your plan with expectation that a magical number would be given you is ill conceived and shows your lack of forethought in dealing with a highly specialized area as these fine gents work in. It wasn't that long ago there was a half a million dollar job floating around here, that was worked and tweaked for months. Long story short, it disappeared even after all the right numbers, techniques and treatments were theoretically applied to it. "especially when you're spending other people's money." See, thats just another way to dis people, that because you are not paying anything that our time isn't worth anything to you. You don't need a business plan boss, you need to learn some manners. Good luck

xspace, speaking of manners, didn't your mother ever teach you that if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all?

So your plan with expectation that a magical number would be given you is ill conceived and shows your lack of forethought...

It wasn't that long ago there was a half a million dollar job floating around here, that was worked and tweaked for months. Long story short, it disappeared...

"especially when you're spending other people's money." See, thats just another way to dis people, that because you are not paying anything that our time isn't worth anything to you.

so i'm greedily asking for free stuff, my plan is ill concieved and lacks forethought, no matter how much i have to spend the project is doomed, and i'm dissing everyone here by engaging in thorough research on behalf of the investors... quite a warm welcome for a new member to this forum! and not a single constructive question or piece of advice to go with all these cheery, well mannered observations!

You don't need a business plan boss, you need to learn some manners.

anyone who refers to someone they don't know as "boss" is seriously lacking in manners and education. enough said, i won't dignify that with any further explanation. i will not be participating in any further discourse with xspace. if you read the 1st two posts in this thread, you will see the phrases "thank you" and "i would appreciate any help" appear often; they were intended humbly and sincerely. they are still intended that way, and i want to extend an earnest apology if i have offended anyone else. i only came here to learn and try to get some pricing information... but i will not be spoken to in a condescending or rude manner.

sound_music wrote:

i'm not interested in the finer points of acoustic theory, i just want a room that sounds good to record in, and a control room environment that doesn't play any tricks.

This is a classic dilemma, but it's black and white because there are two choices only: 1) You hire a professional to design your rooms, oversee your project, estimate the costs, and make sure nothing major goes wrong. 2) You invest the time and effort to learn to do all of the above yourself. I wish there were a third option! If you were local it might be a little easier to help you, and if you had an existing space to treat it would be a lot easier. But it seems to me you need someone that can serve as studio designer and on-site project manager. Besides all the advice found searching in this forum, if you'd still like to do this yourself I suggest you buy Rod's book Home Recording Studio: Build it Like the Pros www.amazon.com/gp/product/1598630342/00 ... 5?n=283155 This book has most or all of what you need, and it's all in one place. Versus having to scrounge through hundreds of threads and ask a lot of questions. --Ethan

hi ethan, thanks for your reply, and thanks for the reccommendation--i'll check out the book for sure. and you bring up a great point: perhaps i'm in the wrong place to be asking for a quote for the whole project here. the more i browse around the more i realize this forum is organized in bits and pieces--which is great if you have a really specific question--but harder for a bigger balpark question. i'm going to contact some professionals as you suggested, and see if that doesn't produce better results.

if you had an existing space to treat it would be a lot easier.

i wish i had the location finalized too... but investors want production and returns on their greenbacks (dihrams in this case) as soon as possible after they lay out their investment, (and we can't blame them) so the likelihood of renting or purchasing a space in advance just to get a treatment quote is nonexistent. having exact specifications on rooms in advance is is only feasible if you're building the property--which we're not in this case. and therein lies the problem...! cheers - steve :)

the answer to the business side is to analyze your market and competition and figure out how much business you expect, you operation costs, and then you can work in the startup costs for design, construction, and equipment - to be paid off over X amount of time. if the plan feels real to the investors then cost shouldn't be too much of an issue because you've done the research, have tangible experience running it, and have a valid plan... from a design perspective, getting a decent proposal on the facility can help investors feel confident you have it together. usually a decent floor plan and some rendered images will go along with a "ballpark" figure (best bet - figure out the square area cost for high-end home construction and multiply that the estimated square area you think you need for the studio - then add 25% - that should be a reasonable guess). so if your m2 cost for a high end home is $2,000, then a 100m2 facility will be $200,000 + 25% = $250,000. probably reasonably, expect about 8-10% of that cost will be design, another X% for licenses, permits etc. equipment is highly variable.

sound_music wrote:

Live Room (including 2m X2m isolation booth) – 6m X 6m (*X 3m)

This statement alone proves you have not read any of the sticky threads on this forum. This forum (as I understand it) is here for people like you (and I) to learn about acoustics not a place where you can come and ask for free help. My tuppence... :)

asking for help is fine on a forum. expecting a significant level of free proposal and design work to be done for a commercial facility would be a bit much...

I must apologize to Ethan and Andre and to some extent steve for sticking my big fat two cents in when it was clearly unneeded. Mom did say if nothing good can be said then say nothing. It was Daddy that said, sometimes, your gonna piss people off :) Therein lies the crux of my dilemma.

hi glenn, thanks for the quote, those rough construction/design numbers were exactly what i was looking for! the rest of the plan is pretty much in the can already (acoustic treatment price was the only major hole), but appreciate you taking the time to give your thoughts on the big picture too. i'm going to contact you through your website (looks great!) to discuss your design fees--i'm shopping around for someone that can do it remotely as was suggested above. cheers - steve :)

i'm expensive but i'm easy... ;-) if its just treatment, i'd recommend checking out Ethan's Real Traps, GIK Acoustics, and Ready Traps to see how they typically layout the room treatments, then estimate a cost based on the number of recommended components. figure 25-35% of that cost if your build them yourself. so if the real traps/gik/ready traps comes in around $12K, then you should probably expect to spend $3K-4.5K for diy treatments.