John's shed - layout suggestions? photos added!

Hello, It was suggested to me that I should post here rather than the construction forum. original thread (in construction forum): http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=10431 I have a brick-built outbuilding at the end of my garden which I would like to adapt. Shape and dims as per jpegs. Construction Walls - 102.5mm brick, 50mm full fill cavity, 100mm medium density concrete block Floor - 150mm concrete slab on 75mm rigid insulation Roof - concrete interlocking tiles, timber battens, felt sarking, timber rafters (it's a "couple" roof, although there are timber ties between 3 pairs of rafters), 75mm insulation between rafters, 15mm Soundblock plasterboard. roof continuously vented at eaves. Door - solid core fire door, with intumescent seal. Currently no internal finishes. How loud Usually, not very. I prefer to monitor/mix at lower volumes, I'm quite comfortable monitoring on headphones, and most of what I record is DI'd, or "virtual". HOWEVER, I also have a full drumkit. I would like to be able to rehearse/jam with 4 other musicians (I know it's a small space, but I'm used to worse) - drums, bass, guitar, vox, keys – although this would probably happen once in a blue moon. Whilst, due to space restrictions, I think my most sensible layout is a single room (that, and I'd rather live with opening the door as necessary than designing/detailing/paying for hvac) a small separate multi-purpose booth has obvious attractions, plus I could focus sound isolation on one area, and acoustic treatment on another. I am completely open to suggestions. 99% of the time I will only be recording myself. My main aim is to prevent sound getting out rather than in (noise-floor in shed, negligible, drumkit being bashed, noise outside shed, oops). This is more from security and self-consciousness points of view than fears of annoying neighbours (on one side, a churchyard, to the rear, a school, on the other side, a triple-glazed house approx 50 ft away). Additional Requirements Don’t laugh, but here’s what I have to be able to fit into the building: Yamaha CS60 Fender Rhodes Stage 73 Mk1 Vox Continental Lowrey organ Yamaha CS40m Hohner Clavinet Sequential Circuits Prophet 600 ARP Solina Roland Jupiter 4 Yamaha CS-5 Korg M500SP (That’s at least 4 stacks of keyboards…) Drum kit Congas (on stand) Bongos (on stand) Bass guitar 2xElectric guitars 2xAcoustic guitars Compact 8-buss desk/monitors/laptop These are all currently housed in a space half the size of my proposed new room… Budget How long is a piece of string? As short as possible! Regards, John

before someone asks "where's your design?", i don't have one... :oops: - i would prefer some feedback on (whether or not to even consider) including some sort of booth first.

They love pix around here...real ones :)

john h-m wrote:

before someone asks "where's your design?", i don't have one... :oops: - i would prefer some feedback on (whether or not to even consider) including some sort of booth first.

Hey John, where's your desi.... oh, eh. sorry :oops: The reason I ask this is be'coz you HAVE to do some homework yourself. This is a DIY studio design forum. If you want a complete solution you should hire a studiodesigner and contractor. Now, there's much good info on the net and especially in this forum. Also Rod's book is a good resource. But first, let's get to your design. Make a list of what you want (forget about construction at this moment, focus on the design). For example: 1 liveroom, 1 controlroom and perhaps, if there's space, a little voxbooth in the liveroom. Do you want a machine room (for your noisy equipment); maybe there's some space left in the CR for that. There's good examples of studio designs here too. Don't forget to visit John Sayers portfolio, few come with floor plans and all! (www.johnlsayers.com) Won't it be much cooler if you made your own design? WOW, I did it all by my self. Ofcourse we can come up with a solution, but that would take away all the fun. not? Now, Gulffo, on the other hand, is very handy with sketchup and some rendering softs AND knows his game. If we don't give'm the pills (doctor's description) every day he gets crazy and will design a dozen studios before you can say "Hell no lady, I wasn't goin' to stick nothing anywhere. True!" :twisted:

Ro, I'm not looking for "a complete solution", I'll be doing as much of the work myself as possible. I've spent months reading the forum, studying John's plans, and reading Rod's book. The thing is, I design buildings every day of the week. But not studios, and not for fun. And I still don't know WHAT I "want"! Which is why I am here asking for advice. I am not asking/expecting someone here to spew out a completed design in glorious 3D, for me, for the love of it, and send me merrily on my way, but the advice I seem to be getting so far seems mainly to concern the way in which I am asking for advice, which is frustrating. I have tried to follow the posting guidelines. I'm just looking for some discussion. I posted here, Ro, on your advice. Start with a design, then look at the construction. To be honest, I've got so much stuff, I think the "design" will simply be a single room with mixer/monitors/pc at one end and all the gear lining the walls (which is why I started off in the construction forum, because I'd just like it sound-isolated as soon as possible so I can move in). It's a shed full of stuff. What else can I do? Does anyone else have any bright ideas? That's all I'm asking. e.g.Who here has a one-room setup? How does it work for you? What about a single room plus drum booth? Is it a dream come true, or is it a pain in the bum and a waste of space if you're recording yourself? If not, I could really use some help in the construction forum! :) @ xSpace. I understand. I'll see if I can lay some bai..er, take some pictures today. :) I'll try to do another sketchup model with my "toys" on it as well, to give a clearer idea of the space (or lack of).

john h-m wrote:

To be honest, I've got so much stuff, I think the "design" will simply be a single room with mixer/monitors/pc at one end and all the gear lining the walls (which is why I started off in the construction forum, because I'd just like it sound-isolated as soon as possible so I can move in). It's a shed full of stuff. What else can I do? Does anyone else have any bright ideas? That's all I'm asking.

There you go. A one room is perfectly doable. You said you wanna have the option to play with your 4-piece band. Given the small space I'd say a one-design is exactly what you need. So no fancy remodelling of your room. 3x5m is usually big enough for just a CR so fitting 4 ppl and a mixdesk in there is gonna be tight. Now, you already have a brickwall place. Is that one layer of bricks? How about the roof? And the floor for that matter? Windows? 1 door? The reason I asked you to build your own design and plans first is also to see how much you "know" already ;)

Ro wrote:

fitting 4 ppl and a mixdesk in there is gonna be tight.

indeed, although it would only be very occasionally.

Ro wrote:

Now, you already have a brickwall place. Is that one layer of bricks? How about the roof? And the floor for that matter? Windows? 1 door?

"Walls - 102.5mm brick, 50mm full fill cavity, 100mm medium density concrete block Floor - 150mm concrete slab on 75mm rigid insulation Roof - concrete interlocking tiles, timber battens, felt sarking, timber rafters (it's a "couple" roof, although there are timber ties between 3 pairs of rafters), 75mm insulation between rafters, 15mm Soundblock plasterboard. roof continuously vented at eaves. Door - solid core fire door, with intumescent seal." ;) uploading pics shortly, although there really isn't much to see!

pics!

Now your gonna get 'em going John, good job!

:lol: :D

Great! Seems like you already got yeself a nice shed. First a bit on the construction (tho we're here to design ....) It's already a two layer construction made out of bricks, must be good enough. But there's, ofcourse, the details... every chain has a weak link. In this case it might be the detailed spend on the construction. Every hole is a leak. Every seam is a leak. A door can be a the weak link. Might wanna make it a double door (with air space) to sort of complement the walls. Or build a very heavy 2 leaf door. There's good examples on this forum. Check for yourrself. The roof could use some extra gypsum layer(s). It's looks like the weakpoint at this moment. All seams must be closed with kit. A concrete floor (already sorta floating..?), don't change a thing just add laminate or whatever. Gotta do some tests to know how much your shed leaks... use a DB meter. There's good examples on this forum on the why, what and how. So let's leave all that to the construction part. mkay. =-=-=-=-=-= Now, the design. There's not lotsa space and you occasionally wanna practise with your band. So maybe something portable would be what you might need. I'm thinking about a portable mixdesk which also holds your monitors. A desk on wheels. Why? cuz you wanna have a RFZ somewhere on 38% of the room while mixing etc. Check this forum to understand why... You will need absorption, so check the acoustics forum to see what you need. There's a pretty basic set up, Ethan has got a nice article on his site about that which he promotes like a few times a week. So, no hard time finding that link ;) There's also a STICKY in the acoustics which shows how to make panels/traps. Check that, it's worth every penny/dime/euro. :P Kay, now let's have that floorplan (design), kay?

Ro wrote:

It's already a two layer construction made out of bricks, must be good enough. But there's, ofcourse, the details... every chain has a weak link. In this case it might be the detailed spend on the construction. Every hole is a leak. Every seam is a leak. A door can be a the weak link. Might wanna make it a double door (with air space) to sort of complement the walls. Or build a very heavy 2 leaf door. There's good examples on this forum. Check for yourrself. The roof could use some extra gypsum layer(s). It's looks like the weakpoint at this moment. All seams must be closed with kit. A concrete floor (already sorta floating..?), don't change a thing just add laminate or whatever.

well this is my main concern. As you say, I already have mass/air/mass, but it leaks sound like a sieve. My main quandary is whether: a)I have the bones of a workable room already, I just need to go over every inch with a caulk gun and seal everything, add an inner door, an extra layer of plasterboard on the ceiling, or... b)I have the shell. That's done, and it does its job. Within that I need to construct an inner shell to do the job of isolation. And maybe I need to modify/remove the existing ceiling. I've read the articles on absorption, and very good they are too. But first I want to stop sound escaping. I suppose the logical place to put my mixer/monitors is the asymmetrical end of the building, but "fixing" the asymmetry by losing some space bothers me...

i still wish someone could just tell me the best way of sound-"proofing" the bloody thing. that's really all i want to know! :cry:

I would suggest getting a DB meter and testing to see how much isolation the building already provides - then you can decide how much more isolation you want and that is easier to calculate into treatment.

"Walls - 102.5mm brick, 50mm full fill cavity, 100mm medium density concrete block Roof - concrete interlocking tiles, timber battens, felt sarking, timber rafters (it's a "couple" roof, although there are timber ties between 3 pairs of rafters), 75mm insulation between rafters, 15mm Soundblock plasterboard. roof continuously vented at eaves.

What is "50mm full fill cavity"? Does "full fill" mean it is not an air cavity and has something in this area? The only "real" bit of density capable of stopping sound in your roof design, as best as I can tell, is the 1/2" inch sheetrock. Which ain't too much. Once sound gets past the sheetrock the tile side is basically open. Not being able to actually see it, I only guess based on my understanding of a tile roof install.

magicdog wrote:

I would suggest getting a DB meter and testing to see how much isolation the building already provides - then you can decide how much more isolation you want and that is easier to calculate into treatment.

i suppose so. i'm under pressure though...

xSpace wrote:

What is "50mm full fill cavity"? Does "full fill" mean it is not an air cavity and has something in this area?

there is a 50mm cavity between outer brick and inner block. it is fully filled with insulation.

xSpace wrote:

The only "real" bit of density capable of stopping sound in your roof design, as best as I can tell, is the 1/2" inch sheetrock. Which ain't too much. Once sound gets past the sheetrock the tile side is basically open. Not being able to actually see it, I only guess based on my understanding of a tile roof install.

i dunno. concrete roof tiles? insulation on top of the soundblock? of course, if you're right, that would mean my roof/ceiling is "M" to which i need to add "-A-M". which is kind of what i've been asking from the start. with my ceiling, do i keep what i already have, and improve it, or replace it with something else?

I don't know how much noise is getting out(of the roof) so I can't answer that directly. I do know that you have M-A so if your missing anything, it's M. From a building point of reference: A typical roof has a way for air to move through the rafters, from the soffit usually to the attic and out a vent. You say yours has soffit vents, does it have a ridge vent and cavities between rafters for air to move heat buildup out?

xSpace wrote:

A typical roof has a way for air to move through the rafters, from the soffit usually to the attic and out a vent. You say yours has soffit vents, does it have a ridge vent and cavities between rafters for air to move heat buildup out?

mine has continuous eaves fascia vents, no ridge vent. the insulation is laid between the rafters, flush with the underside, leaving a ventilated cavity between the top surface of the insulation and the sarking.