Whoa! I just logged on to find Bruce Swedien is answering questions!
Wow, man! Hey Mr. Swedien, Thanks for all your work. (By the way, Thriller is still one of the coolest records to listen to.) I don't know if some of the people here recognize just exactly what you've done.. a little wiki search should help those not in the know.
What's a good thing to know in creating your (or my) own acoustic space?
-hild
I believe in Acoustic Sciences Tube Traps.....
Originally posted at johnlsayers.com, topic 10423.
Thanks to Mr. Swedien for his great work, and sharing his knowledge with this group. I enjoyed seeing his new work environment. It puts me in mind of the living room where Rudy van Gelder made some of the definitive mono jazz recordings.
I believe that recording minimalism is making a comeback, and the trick is getting the truth of the performance onto the recording medium. Thanks to engineers like Bruce, the rest of us wanna bees have an excellent example to aspire to.
amen. it doesn't hurt that Bruce could take a bunch of Radio Shack equipment into a phone booth and still out-record and out-mix 99% of humanity either... :wink: Bruce - could you talk a little bit (actually a lot would be great too! :-)) about how you evolved to your current treatment configuration and did you do anything to your room structurally before adding in the treatments?I believe that recording minimalism is making a comeback, and the trick is getting the truth of the performance onto the recording medium. Thanks to engineers like Bruce, the rest of us wanna bees have an excellent example to aspire to.
WOW!!! At last - someone who actually wants to talk about recording music... I love it!!! Here's a bit of the History of the subject and how i got so deeply involved.... I’ve always felt that it is important to study the history of recorded music. We must understand the past, before we can develop the future. In other words, I think it’s very important for each of us involved in the production of recorded music, to understand what happened in the past in the studio, to be able to move forward. If we don’t study and thoroughly appreciate the past, we are doomed to repeat it. In other words, in music recording, history can (And should) inform the future. Here are some important facts and dates in the evolution of Music Recording Studios and the Music Recording Medium from the middle 1940's. Many of the facts are from personal experience. This is a favorite subject of mine.... Forgive me if I go on a bit.... In the middle -1940's, as World War Two ended, 'major' labels dominated the recording industry. They were Columbia Records, RCA Victor, Decca Records and the younger, up-and-coming, Capitol Records. In 1946 Mercury Records(now Phonogram) came into being in Chicago and by 1948 was an important label. MGM Records came on the scene at about the same time. There were a few small independent labels but they had little impact on the record industry as a whole. In 1947 more and more "independent" record labels came into being. These small labels specialized in certain types of music and their product was aimed specifically at these markets. Here are a few of the areas of music that the independent labels supplied. 1-Rhythm and Blues.(Frequently called 'Race' records at the time.) 2-Country Music. 3-Religious and Gospel music. 4-Spiritual Music.(Southern black singing groups.) 5-Jazz. The studios and facilities of all the major record companies were quite similar in design and scope. The studio processes and the internal discipline of the studios was quite rigid. The studio atmosphere and decor was very clinical and institutional. The recording rooms were fairly large but the control rooms were quite small. The operational policies, as far as recording technique, within each label, or company, was quite inflexible. I was just a year out of High School... From 1951 to 1953 I studied Electrical Engineering, with a minor in Music at the University of Minnesota. In January of 1953, Bea and I had just gotten married and I was running the recording department for Schmitt Music Company in Minneapolis. They had a wonderful studio and later,(about 1954) I bought that studio and the business from Schmitt Music and built my own studio. My father and I bought an old Movie Theater in Minneapolis on the south side of the down-town area. We converted it into a recording studio. In those days we were so poor that for acoustical treatment, we couldn't afford bona-fide, factory-made, sound treatment. Instead we used egg cartons instead of acoustical tiles. For weeks and weeks, Bea and I, would glue egg cartons to the studio ceilings. Actually, the studio sounded quite wonderful.... For most of the late 1940's and early 1950's the major labels continued to record most of their 'pop' music acts with their traditional, highly disciplined techniques. The music groups signed to the label were required to record in the labels facilities. Columbia Records was the first of the 'major' labels to allow musicians and technicians outside the controlled studio environment and attempt to get a more 'live' sound on record. They used beautiful sounding Liederkranz Hall in New York for some big band recordings. The sound of this elegant, big room on those records was a giant step forward from the 'pinched', narrow, little studio sound of the day. Some highly successful records were made about the same time in England by pop artists such as 'Mantovani', and The Richard Himber Orchestra. These lovely sounding recordings are fine examples of the large hall 'open' sound. Not long after Columbia's pioneering efforts to improve recorded sound, RCA began using Webster Hall in New York to record the 'Sauter-Finnegan' Orchestra. These records are outstanding examples of this type of sonic advancement. Decca followed by using 'Pythian Temple' in New York. I remember visiting 'Pythian Temple' in 1956 at the invitation of Decca Records A and R director Leonard Joy. I did many happy hours of sessions with Leonard Joy, in Minneapolis and Chicago both. In Minneapolis I recorded the 'Whoopee John' Wilfhart Polka Band, for Decca Records with Leonard as producer. In Chicago, I recorded the Jan Garber Orchestra and the Wayne King Orchestra for Decca with Leonard Joy as producer. I was absolutely knocked out with the idea of recording with a big room sound, but I distinctly remember, in 1957, thinking to myself, that Big Bands were definitely on the way out and that this big room technique was not going to last for long. It didn't. I think this effort, on the part of band leaders, record producers, musicians and technicians, to record a deliberately more reverberant sonic image played a big part in the development of the 'echo' chamber. Acoustical treatment of the label studios of the day was fairly 'dead'. My early days in Chicago at RCA, were spent working in recording rooms that were quite typical of that era. Acoustical treatment mainly consisted of drapes, acoustic tile, polyclyindrical diffussers on the walls and carpeting on the floors. Some of the music studios had an area of floor that was wood or tile in a half-hearted attempt at some 'live' space. Most of the attention of the acoustical technicians of the era, was to 'deaden' rooms with a great deal of soft material. This made the reverb time in the high and mid-frequency range quite short and gave a fairly 'dead' effect to the resultant sound. Little if any attention was given to the middle-low and the low frequency end of the spectrum. This fact, I think, contributes to the 'muddy' and 'unseparated' sound of many of the recordings of that day. Recordings made during and prior to the mid 1940's had little apparent separation of the instruments in the sonic image for this very same reason. This deadening of the high frequencies and lack of attention to the low-frequency absorbtion of music recording rooms resulted in a great deal of secondary pick-up by the microphones used during sessions.(Secondary pick-up is the sound that a microphone picks up of the instruments that are not in it's intended hearing pattern.) I think that there was, at that time, another equally important reason for all the low frequency 'mud' and coloration in those 1940 recordings. USING THE MEN’S ROOM... In the late 1940's there were few studios that had the luxury of a room designed specifically for reverberation. Most of the recording studios that were experimenting with the use of controlled reverberation for "artistic effect", had to use spaces designed for other, less glamorous, uses. In the Civic Opera Building in Chicago, home at that time of Universal Recording Studios, Bill Putnam was using his favorite men's room as a reverberation space or 'Echo Chamber'. From time to time, as Bill loved to point out, trespassers would ignore the "Out Of Order" sign, and go ahead and use the facilities anyway. Then, of course, there would be the watery flushing sound of a toilet as part of a historic recording. Those moments are preserved forever for future generations on several records, I'm sure. In 1947, one of the first 'pop' records to exploit reverberation in recorded music, for artistic impact, was "Peg-O-My-Heart" by Jerry Murad and the Harmonicats. This wonderful record was released on Universal's Studio’s own record label, called “Vitacoustic”. "Peg-O-My-Heart" was a huge 'hit'. I think that from that moment on, a trend developed to use reverb on 'pop' records. During this period the music recording industry was compelled to produce better sounding records than were made during the 1940's. The Hi-Fi equipment and record buying public demanded it. Sorry to go on so long. I think it's all important And... I was there....... Bruce Swedienamen. it doesn't hurt that Bruce could take a bunch of Radio Shack equipment into a phone booth and still out-record and out-mix 99% of humanity either... :wink: Bruce - could you talk a little bit (actually a lot would be great too! :-)) about how you evolved to your current treatment configuration and did you do anything to your room structurally before adding in the treatments?I believe that recording minimalism is making a comeback, and the trick is getting the truth of the performance onto the recording medium. Thanks to engineers like Bruce, the rest of us wanna bees have an excellent example to aspire to.
Great now we have Bruce Swedien running around making statements like this.
"In those days we were so poor that for acoustical treatment, we couldn't afford bona-fide, factory-made, sound treatment. Instead we used egg cartons instead of acoustical tiles. For weeks and weeks, Bea and I, would glue egg cartons to the studio ceilings. Actually, the studio sounded quite wonderful.... "
:lol: :lol: :lol:
Bruce thank you so much for posting. These are wonderful stories.
Glenn
Yea... can someones explain to me why back in Europe, almost all of the band rehearsals spaces where made with Eggs cartons , curtains and polystyrene too!??? 100% coverage!
I never complained about the sound,! Nice warm sound, I never suffered ear fatigue...! Was just the only option out there for musicians !
there was not Internet at the time....
Now instead many musicians end up spending their time in forum trying to figure out why they don't like their rooms made with " acoustic foam or fiberglass panels, the only accepted acoustic treatment today unless you are a super man builder..
Today anythings you want to stick to the walls suddenly become flame hazard or bad acoustic material, and this and that!!
So... today, what the musician can stick to the walls instead ?
I still remember and love the sound of my friend polystyrene room with eggs cartons and curtains.
can somebody explain? I'm the only one remembering that ?
I LOVE the sound of Egg Cartons on the walls of the studio.... Bruce SwedienYea... can someones explain to me why back in Europe, almost all of the band rehearsals spaces where made with Eggs cartons , curtains and polystyrene too!??? 100% coverage! I never complained about the sound,! Nice warm sound, I never suffered ear fatigue...! Was just the only option out there for musicians ! there was not Internet at the time.... Now instead many musicians end up spending their time in forum trying to figure out why they don't like their rooms made with " acoustic foam or fiberglass panels, the only accepted acoustic treatment today unless you are a super man builder.. Today anythings you want to stick to the walls suddenly become flame hazard or bad acoustic material, and this and that!! So... today, what the musician can stick to the walls instead ? I still remember and love the sound of my friend polystyrene room with eggs cartons and curtains. can somebody explain? I'm the only one remembering that ?
I think this website is taking a HUGE step backwards in the presentation of this kind of information. What next...mattresses?I LOVE the sound of Egg Cartons on the walls of the studio.... Bruce Swedien
Bruce (if I may use the informal),
You wrote of starting with small ensemble rooms, moving to large auditoria, (I assume this included the famous Decca tree), through dead rooms, semi live (LEDE), and back to small project studios. Odd how the cycle works...
In your opinion, do room dynamics really matter if recording with close mics?
well thats what I,ll be using in my studio.... :twisted:I think this website is taking a HUGE step backwards in the presentation of this kind of information. What next...mattresses?I LOVE the sound of Egg Cartons on the walls of the studio.... Bruce Swedien
Mr Swedien,
How do you approach an acoustic jazz quartet recording with grand piano, drums, upright bass and Sax in a small 13'x18'room' with bad acoustic?
Yeah, I do too. It's great value for practical no $ ! (so, euh How many smiles does it take to create a good sounding room with egg carton...)I LOVE the sound of Egg Cartons on the walls of the studio.... Bruce Swedien
its all about bulk. and now with flame retardant:
http://www.eggcartons.com/category-exec ... _Egg_Trays
8)
http://www.eggcartons.com/product-exec/ ... _Egg_CX_30
(complete with warnings for use as acoustic treatments)
i wonder if those wooden shoe carving machines can be adapted to create egg cartons from wood so you can mix and match... ;-)
OK, but all of you agree that eggs curtains sounded good? Especially if you cover 100% the walls? Polystyrene also is not considered an acoustic material but if you cover 100% of the wall it effect the acoustic some how.. ... Anything you cover the wall with effect the acoustic a little .., I know it because back in Europe I gr owed up playing in places made like that! Curtains too, bamboo fencing's etc etc... This stuff has reduced absorption, doesn't really kill the room... But if you cover the walls with acoustic foam or fiberglass the room sound bad instead...unless you cover just part of it and then you deal with 10000 reflections in your ears and fatigue. So today... Watt ..f the Musicians can glue to their garage walls ? Now everything suddenly is flame hazard..even polystyrene, sound board, plywood, etc... and I agree with that! But :roll: then after all the fire hazard problems we start with bass absorption limitations.. we now need 4" or more tick fiberglass spaced from the walls etc etc.. and here the question what will absorb more bass?: 20% walls coverage, 4" tick dense fiberglass (uniformly absorb 100% of the sound): 125 Hz 250 Hz 500 Hz 1 kHz 2 kHz 4 kHz 0.99 0.98 0.99 0.98 0.99 0.99 or 100% walls coverage -thin material with reduced absorption, something like polystyrene or similar stupid stuff I guess.. (uniformly absorb only 20% of the sound) 125 Hz 250 Hz 500 Hz 1 kHz 2 kHz 4 kHz 0.22 0.24 0.23 0.21 0.22 0.24 ?? :idea: :?:its all about bulk. and now with flame retardant: http://www.eggcartons.com/category-exec ... _Egg_Trays 8) http://www.eggcartons.com/product-exec/ ... _Egg_CX_30 (complete with warnings for use as acoustic treatments) i wonder if those wooden shoe carving machines can be adapted to create egg cartons from wood so you can mix and match... ;-)
OK, but all of you agree that eggs curtains sounded good?
Especially if you cover 100% the walls? Polystyrene also is not considered an acoustic material but if you cover 100% of the wall it effect the acoustic some how.. ...
Anything you cover the wall with effect the acoustic a little ..,
I know it because back in Europe I gr owed up playing in places made like that!
Curtains too, bamboo fencing's etc etc...
This stuff has reduced absorption, doesn't really kill the room...
But if you cover the walls with acoustic foam or fiberglass the room sound bad instead...unless you cover just part of it and then you deal with 10000 reflections in your ears and fatigue.
So today... Watt ..f the Musicians can glue to their garage walls ?
Now everything suddenly is flame hazard..even polystyrene, sound board, plywood, etc... and I agree with that!
But :roll:
then after all the fire hazard problems we start with bass absorption limitations.. we now need 4" or more tick fiberglass spaced from the walls etc etc..
and here the question
what will absorb more bass?:
20% walls coverage, 4" tick dense fiberglass
(uniformly absorb 100% of the sound):
125 Hz 250 Hz 500 Hz 1 kHz 2 kHz 4 kHz
0.99 0.98 0.99 0.98 0.99 0.99
or
100% walls coverage -thin material with reduced absorption,
something like polystyrene or similar stupid stuff I guess..
(uniformly absorb only 20% of the sound)
125 Hz 250 Hz 500 Hz 1 kHz 2 kHz 4 kHz
0.22 0.24 0.23 0.21 0.22 0.24
?? :idea: :?:[/quote]
timogiodeson
I would most certainly NOT want to go back to egg cartons. Egg cartons helped alot when I was starting up in Minneapolis. That time has come and gone!
My new studio with it's Acoustic Sciences" treatment is vastly superior! I love it!
Bruce Swedien
No, we don't. They just don't work. No absorption, no reflection. non, nada (well, a bit in the higher frq regions.. but forget it). It's a firehazard too. What a pitty. Forget about it, NOW :)OK, but all of you agree that eggs curtains sounded good?
read this: http://www.acousticsfirst.com/docs/egg.PDF :wink: cheers mikaNo, we don't. They just don't work. No absorption, no reflection. non, nada (well, a bit in the higher frq regions.. but forget it). It's a firehazard too. What a pitty. Forget about it, NOW :)OK, but all of you agree that eggs curtains sounded good?
sadly, we do not know what brand of egg crates were used... :twisted:
i think though we have progressed beyond egg crates when it comes to broadband absorption... that said, i do like the QSF approach to direct field effects to create a diffuse controlled space...
not sure if the drum model is right - i guess it depends on the mic positions and room but i would think you still want some treatment in the room to temper it a bit so you are not getting too much coming back at you.
Mika..... What are you saying? I don't understand.... Bruce Swedienread this: http://www.acousticsfirst.com/docs/egg.PDF :wink: cheers mikaNo, we don't. They just don't work. No absorption, no reflection. non, nada (well, a bit in the higher frq regions.. but forget it). It's a firehazard too. What a pitty. Forget about it, NOW :)OK, but all of you agree that eggs curtains sounded good?
I want to say that now I would NEVER think of going back to Egg Cartons. By today's acoustical standards they are pretty much dog-doo. BUT - they did help me in 1956 I'll tell you....
I'll never forget the first tiime I heard their effect on the sound...
Bruce
this was a answer to thisWhat are you saying? I don't understand....
this messurments show that they work. not as good as we need, but they do absorb something. by the way: i like your interview in bobby owsinski's book :D cheers mkaThey just don't work. No absorption, no reflection. non, nada
Mika...... Thanks for your kind words.... Of course they work... And of course they are not as good we need. When I was first building my studio in Minneapolis in 1956, egg cartons glued to the wall were mighty impressive to this kid beginning to record stuff.... I will never forget how they helped the sound! Brucethis was a answer to thisWhat are you saying? I don't understand....this messurments show that they work. not as good as we need, but they do absorb something. by the way: i like your interview in bobby owsinski's book :D cheers mkaThey just don't work. No absorption, no reflection. non, nada
The test is for egg crates not eggs cartons :D :twisted: :shock: :?: OK 1) you can clearly see that they have low NRC 0.40 and because of that you can cover 100% of the walls ! 2) I think they are very good axially perfect from 500hz and up, they don't over absorb high freq like foam or fiberglass! they absorb just enough to warm up the sound and make musicians happy. 3) big cabinets , drums, peoples, instruments, furniture, couches etc inside the room absorb about 40% of the rest of the sound below 500hz up to about 125hz.. and from there and below the walls do the rest... so you end up with a room that sound warmer but not dead. still with reflections, but less intense. now... on the rehearsal spaces back in Europe there was also polystyrene on the walls... yes it's not an acoustical material but some how change a little the sound of the room, a little absorption and a little of some kind of membrane effect. I can guarantee too you that rooms sounded better after the polystyrene and even better with the egg cartons on top of it... in front of the garage door there was usually an heavy curtains. Now the point is the fire hazard , and I agree with that. So I'm asking to the scientists , what is today alternative for musicians garages? What we can glue to the entire walls to reduce just about 30% of the offending reflections of the usual concrete floor /drywall rehearsal space..? timogioread this: http://www.acousticsfirst.com/docs/egg.PDF :wink: cheers mikaNo, we don't. They just don't work. No absorption, no reflection. non, nada (well, a bit in the higher frq regions.. but forget it). It's a firehazard too. What a pitty. Forget about it, NOW :)OK, but all of you agree that eggs curtains sounded good?
It sounded like a chicken!!! Audience: BOOO!!!!! throws eggs...and egg cartons!!! :lol: :lol: note to self..your not a comedian!! :twisted:I want to say that now I would NEVER think of going back to Egg Cartons. By today's acoustical standards they are pretty much dog-doo. BUT - they did help me in 1956 I'll tell you.... I'll never forget the first tiime I heard their effect on the sound... Bruce
Why are you focussing on something (egg crates) that has become obsolete? Cover 30% or 40% of the surfaces with absorbent material. Choose the thickness as per the low frequency absorption roll off you desire. AndreSo I'm asking to the scientists , what is today alternative for musicians garages? What we can glue to the entire walls to reduce just about 30% of the offending reflections of the usual concrete floor /drywall rehearsal space..?