John Sayers' Recording Studio Design Forum Archive

sandledfoot wrote:
eruss... i didn't even realize they made glass thinner than 1/8

Well maybe mine is 1/8th. I did not have my glasses on when I measured and the lines were fuzzy.

It is too thin whatever it is.

Post some pics of your window when you are done. I'll do the same.

Eruss,
I would be hard pressed to even put up 1/8" ..that too is very thin.
For one I would worry about it getting broken easily. One hit with a guitar and it might break, someone gets hurt and ....
I would personally think 1/4" would be a minimum
But I am sure Rod is right behind me writing something
Tom

TomVan wrote:Eruss,
I would be hard pressed to even put up 1/8" ..that too is very thin.
For one I would worry about it getting broken easily. One hit with a guitar and it might break, someone gets hurt and ....
I would personally think 1/4" would be a minimum
But I am sure Rod is right behind me writing something
Tom

Well I have some questions about that but Rod seems to have dissapeared from this post.

Maybe I'll start a new one.

Well,
For one thing, the mass of glass is about three times that of drywall.
So if you are trying to match the sound proofing ( how little sound transfers through) of your glass with that of your wall build, 1/8 glass will give you the same sound proofing of one layer of 3/8 drywall... not much by any standard.

If all you are doing is creating a vocal booth where you are just trying to keep computer fan noise out of the booth, that would work.. That is about it though.

You are wasting money if you spend the time and effort to have 2 layers of 5/8ths drywall (1 & 1/4ths ) and then only match it with anything less than about 3/8ths glass (equivelant to about 1 & 1/8th drywall).

Otherwise it is like building a room but leaving the door wide open when you play.

tmix wrote:Well,
For one thing, the mass of glass is about three times that of drywall.
So if you are trying to match the sound proofing ( how little sound transfers through) of your glass with that of your wall build, 1/8 glass will give you the same sound proofing of one layer of 3/8 drywall... not much by any standard.

If all you are doing is creating a vocal booth where you are just trying to keep computer fan noise out of the booth, that would work.. That is about it though.

You are wasting money if you spend the time and effort to have 2 layers of 5/8ths drywall (1 & 1/4ths ) and then only match it with anything less than about 3/8ths glass (equivelant to about 1 & 1/8th drywall).

Otherwise it is like building a room but leaving the door wide open when you play.

Like I said, I have some questions but Rod has gone.

I inquired about glass yesterday. The price was not as high as I thought, BUT, the man in the glass store says things contradictory to what Rod says.

Rod talks about laminent glass. The man in the store says there is no such thing. There is laminent and there is glass, NOT laminent glass.

I can get 1/2 inch "laminent" for 25 psf. BUT, that is for what the man in the store called "laminent". I got a feeling this is not the same thing as Rod talks about in his book. I also fear that when and if I ever find out EXACTLY what I need it will be 10 times the price. Which puts me back at suare one.

If that happens then I might as well record with the door open as you put it. It will not be the first time I've had to do that. At least I will be isolated from the outside.

So, once again, the pros here use terms that the people in the real world don't understand. This confuses amatures like me when we go shopping for materials. We then have to delay our prodject and come back here to bug the pros for advice of which we feel greatfull for frustrated at an guilty about all at the same time.

See http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewt ... 8531#28531

Try talking to a different "man" in a different "store."

Know why you need what you need. It raises confidence when defending it... And, yes, we often have to defend it. My building department's chief plan reviewer tried to talk me into a multi-leaf wall system using hat channel BETWEEN layers of drywall. His job was to advise me about code and I had to be delicate in my defenses so that I could get the support I needed while rejecting the bogus advice he wanted to give me at the same time.

--Keith

sharward wrote:See http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewt ... 8531#28531

Try talking to a different "man" in a different "store."

Know why you need what you need. It raises confidence when defending it... And, yes, we often have to defend it. My building department's chief plan reviewer tried to talk me into a multi-leaf wall system using hat channel BETWEEN layers of drywall. His job was to advise me about code and I had to be delicate in my defenses so that I could get the support I needed while rejecting the bogus advice he wanted to give me at the same time.

--Keith

I agree but all the people I talked to at the glass stores basically said the same thing. Laminent is laminant and glass is glass. They said they can get 1/2 inch laminant which is two 1/4 laminant put together. But I don't know if the laminant they speak of is the same laminant glass that Rod talks about. And neither do the people in the glass store.

So, do I get the 1/2 "laminant"?

eruss,

It is a shame people cant be on the same page sometimes....
I dont know why they make such a distinction between laminate and glass.
Basically there is solid glass which can be in the tempered state or the annealed (softer) state, they each have properties that are directed towards specific use.
Then there is laminated or sometimes called "safety glass" which is thinner layers of glass that are "laminated" together with a layer of plastic / acrylic -whatever it is- that affords the glass some breakage protection from shattering in a million pieces, it comes out like a big limp wad. But to our use the layering of the differing densities of hard-limp - hard of the glass and plastic gives some added benefit in less sympathetic vibrations.

Unless the glass guy has something different than that he is calling laminate, i say get the 1/2 inch!

Tom

tmix wrote:eruss,

It is a shame people cant be on the same page sometimes....
I dont know why they make such a distinction between laminate and glass.
Basically there is solid glass which can be in the tempered state or the annealed (softer) state, they each have properties that are directed towards specific use.
Then there is laminated or sometimes called "safety glass" which is thinner layers of glass that are "laminated" together with a layer of plastic / acrylic -whatever it is- that affords the glass some breakage protection from shattering in a million pieces, it comes out like a big limp wad. But to our use the layering of the differing densities of hard-limp - hard of the glass and plastic gives some added benefit in less sympathetic vibrations.

Unless the glass guy has something different than that he is calling laminate, i say get the 1/2 inch!

Tom

Thanks. I'll see what I can do. I might end up building a hefty gobo of some kind to put in front of the glass in the live room for loud insrtuments. I don't need to see them anyway.

THis glass was up before with the horable constuction. You could not hear someone singing. You could barely hear them yealing.

You could hear bass real easy though. However, even if I had 5 inch thick glass it would not stop drums. There is going to be bleed through no matter what I do, so it is a matter of degree.

There is a 7000 foot live room just 100 feet away in the other room. I intend on using that for drums and loud instruments anyway. This glass should be enough for most instuments and vocals.

Right now I'm trying to figure out how to hide the gap between the walls seen though the window. That seems to be impossible.

eruss wrote: I agree but all the people I talked to at the glass stores basically said the same thing.

Laminent is laminant and glass is glass.

They said they can get 1/2 inch laminant which is two 1/4 laminant put together. But I don't know if the laminant they speak of is the same laminant glass that Rod talks about.

And neither do the people in the glass store.

So, do I get the 1/2 "laminant"?

Russ,

It nevder ceases to amaze me the people in the industry who are ignorant about the products they specialize in.

1st off - yes we are talking the same thing - lami is lami - it's 2 piece of glass laminated with a clear plasticized center.

Now - I call it laminated glass because that is what the people who manufacture it call it.......... and they are the people who sell it to the glass companies you are talking to.

So they're ordering glass and don't even know it's name......

For example in the UK:

http://www.zytronic.co.uk/laminated_glass.htm

and here in the States:

https://grayglass.net/page/1055/

Lmai Glass (laminated glass) is lami glass - all day long.........

Sincerely,

Rod

rod gervais wrote:
It nevder ceases to amaze me the people in the industry who are ignorant about the products they specialize in.

Me too. But the guy said there was no glass in it. So it made me scared to pay all that money for something that might be the wrong thing.

I put so much weight on what you say that anything that contradicts it makes me hesitate. It also delays my project which I don't like.

Hey Rod thanks for this post it has made window installation make a lot more sense to me. I have a few questions though.

What thickness setting blocks should I use?

Do they just go on the bottom or do they go on the top and sides?

Does 1/3 bearing locations mean 3 setting blocks spaced evenly across the bottom?

What thickness butyl tape do you recommend?

My windows are 5'x3' and 3'x3' with 1/2" and 3/4" laminated glass

Thanks
Lief

Lief,

The thickness of the setting blocks I think are determined by keeping the glass off of the frame and level. They need only be placed on the bottom.

I think Rod suggested either 1/8 or 3/16th thickness glazing tape in his book, i don't have it in front of me, so i'm trying to pull from memory...

As for placement, the way I understand it is to divide the window into thirds (or quarters for larger windows) and that should give you your placement of the setting blocks. so... 3 setting blocks spaced evenly on the bottom makes sense to me...

hope yours goes better than mine did~ good luck!

kevin

Leif,

Kevin pretty much hit the nail on the head:

setting blocks at 1/3's would mean a block at 1/3 of the window length - and one at 2/3 the window length.

So just 2 blocks for thirds - 3 blocks if supporting at 1/4's......

the width of the blocks should be the thickness of the glass - about 1" long and 1/4" thick.

the tape should be 1/8" thick.....

blocks go just on the bottom

when you caulk you should be neat and clean - you only caulk the thickness of the glass...... tool it off nice afterwards so it's flush with the glass face and make sure it has no air pockets......

the cleanest way to do it would be to use painters tape- tape the glass edge - tape the jamb flush at the face of the glass- then caulk.

when you're done caulking - tool the caulk with your finger neatly to the glass face - let any excess caulk ooze off onto the tape.

After tooling - wait just a few minutes - and then carefully peal the tape away - leaving a perfect caulk job behind.

Let the caulk cure fully before adding your next set of stops.

Rod

eruss wrote: the guy said there was no glass in it.

What a fricken idiot -

it is a plastic laminate sandwiched between 2 plates of annealed glass.......

how can he say there is no glass in it???????????????

Sounds to me like you need to find a new glass company........

Also sounds to me like he is talking about plexiglass.........

what a moron..........

Rod