John Sayers' Recording Studio Design Forum Archive

I'm toying with the idea of buying this building to put my studio in and creating rehearsal space in the rest of it to help make the nut. I'm looking at 4000sq ft on two floors, both are concrete.

I would like to make decent spaces for bands that will sound good to reherse in and will not bother the adjacent space. My question concerns floating floors.

I don't want to float the floors in the rehearsal spaces due to the expense. I would like to be able to record bands in their rehearsal spaces if need be and would need decent isolation.

the idea would be to use the inside out wall construction talked about here, to maximize space but still have a double wall in between with treatment on the inside for the acoustics of the space. would it be a good idea to float the walls on neoprene maybe? I would leave the concrete floors for durability and cost.

Could I build drums risers for each space to get some control over the low end travelling through the floor?

This is just a fledgling idea at this point but I'm trying to figure out if it is doable for a reasonable budget. The studio itself is a whole other beast and if it flies, the design will most assuredly take place here on the forum.

Oh, and BTW, this forum is AWESOME! I've been facinated by acoustic design for sooo many years being a recording engineer by trade, and to have a place like this to hang out is just great. thanks John for creating this site!

-bassman
longtime lurker, first post...

I did a quick cost estimate to float a floor for a space of 2000 sq ft. I came up with an estimated price of about $3000.00 not including subfloor glue, screws and labor. (Michigan Prices of course)

Does that out price you? Just curious

But to answer your questions,

Will the concrete floors be isolated from each other or is this one long contiguous piece of concrete? If so, I'd consider cutting a line in the concrete, as it were, and filling it with that rubber stuff they use on freeways in the expansion joints to separate the concrete. That will reduce/eliminate bass traving straight on down the road.

Floated drum risers filled with some kind of insulation to quell resonances are a good idea for additional isolation.

Floating the walls is always a good idea, but if you did the cut I suggested, may be a design element you can forgo.

Bryan Giles

Cutting the concrete, especially on the SECOND floor, is NOT a good idea - that would decrease earthquake, or even natural gentle earth movement, resistance to near ZERO.

The concrete will flank nearly everything you put into it, to EVERYWHERE else (and pretty efficiently) -

The drum riser idea would work, but you could also do the entire room(s) floated using 1-1/8" OSB on flat laid 2x4's, with neoprene pucks spaced every 24" - Use pressure treated 2x's under the floors. I've not actually used John's inside out walls, but I'd think you'd need at least 3 layers each side to compensate for the narrow air gap. That makes even a small section pretty heavy to tip up, but people do it -

If you're going to stick to your original statement of isolation needs, I'd build some kind of floated rooms. A 12 x 16 room could be floated for about $220 if you find a cheap source of neoprene - horse stall mats have been used pretty successfully by some - just cut them with a razor knife, into 2x3.5" pucks and contact cement them to the 2x's before the floor frame goes down.

If there's not to be any air space between the OUTER surfaces of the rooms, but instead just continuous rooms with dividers, pay particular attention to mass-spring-mass theory or you'll lose isolation. See this thread -

http://johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic ... 75&start=0

We can probably help more with an idea of budget... Steve

Oops, missed that second floor thing. I must slow my speed reading down.

BTW to elaborate, I was estimating cost on a 2x6 floated floor with a double layer of particle board or plywood and R-13 in between the floor joists.

Bryan Giles

I am certain that everyone probably knows this - but what the heck - I'm gonna say it anyway.

In any building i didn't personally build (and that is the vast majority of the structures in the known world.... ) i would not add additional dead loads to the floor assembly (other than slab on grade) without 1st consulting a structural engineer to verify that i was not creating a potential structural disaster.

Understand that this is not something that would necessarily show up immeadiately - especially with steel/concrete construction - an overloaded structure under the right conditions can look perfect right up until the moment where it collapses on you......... and yes - it can really be that sudden.

Rod

As usual, Rod brings up a VERY valid point - I'm as guilty as the rest; when somebody says "concrete" I tend to forget that this can mean "2 inches poured over an existing floor, already at its max loading" just as easily as it can mean "6 inch floor with extra rebar, plus 12" deep pre-cast, multi-rebar I-beams under slab, with support walls every 6 feet" -

By all means, get an engineer's viewpoint before you go ahead on this - we wouldn't wanna have a "bassman in the basement" unless you actually INTENDED to go there.

Glad to have you around Rod, I feel safer already ... Steve

thanks for all the info so far. Cutting the slab would be out since it is the foundation of the building. I do want to float the studio on the second floor though.

I have an appt. to see the building Monday and will get some accurate dimensions to come up with a plan. I need to figure a rough budget before buying the place for obvious reasons. Don't want to have budget shock once I start. There is currently a tenant on the first floor that would stay a while so the studio upstairs would be first on the project list.

This could be fun!

BTW, just so y'all know, I'm a producer/engineer with major label credits in the biz for 18yrs or so. I'm in the Cincinnati area and will be for some time if this project goes through.

I'm also the author of this book:

http://muskalipman.com/catalog/product. ... 159200069X

Thanks again for all the help.

-ashley

Interesting book Ashley - I mixed video sound through the eighties - slow old syncronisers and multitracks - Must be a breeze doing it in a DAW

seems to me we need to know your dimensions and how you intend to lay the rooms out before we can comment on your plans.

cheers
John

Whoa.... thats the first time someone has been THAT close to me!!

Hi Ashley, I'm in Anderson TWP, just a hop over the river from you!! <15 minutes>. I'll have to come by and see the new projet, if'in you decide to do it.

I'll take some pictures for you to post here for everyone, then I can soak up some of your engineering knowledge.

Ron

I have an appointment Monday to see the property. I will have my camera and tape measure and bring back results. The second floor looks like it could have 25'+ ceilings at the peak of the roof.

Yes, audio post is a breeze with DAW's now. It is the standard these days. No one has written a book about it so I thought I could tackle the job. We'll see. The book just came out a couple months ago. It is at AES this weekend. Wish I was too, .

Hey Ron. Nice to see another local checking this stuff out. Not too many well made studios in town. Maybe I can fill a gap!

-ashley