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Construction questions on new design

Posted: Sat Sep 27, 2003 3:07 pm
by jt
John was nice enough to help me out with a layout:
http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewt ... sc&start=0

BACKGROUND:
This is a basement studio. The ceilings are unfinished 2" x 10" and are 8 ft high, but in areas they are only 7 ft because of ductwork. There are also two beams running horizontally over where the two permanent post are shown on the layout. From the bottom of the beams to the floor is about 7.5 ft. So, there are varying ceiling heights. Three walls and the floor are poured concrete. The floor has water radiant heating imbedded.

The studio is mostly for personal use recording modern rock. In addition the live room will be a band practice room. There will not be a big console in the control room as I do computer based, hard disk recording. I will rarely have clients that are strangers.

To the left of my design (but not shown) is a game room with an HDTV system, couches, bar, etc. So, I want to keep the sound into that area down. But at the same time, I could also make use of this room as a client reception area or a "real world" listening area.

I've formed my own design using the suggestions from John and dbluefield, which I've posted below. I expect some people will be scratching their head. But this is well thought out and I'm going to explain it, but I do have some questions first. Here's my version of John's design:


Image

QUESTIONS:
1. I know the brown areas behind the speakers are bass traps, but what are the brown areas at the top of John's layout? They aren't traps also are they? I would think not since there are no traps on the opposite wall which would really throw things out of balance. Shouldn't the top brown area just be an air gap? Like this:

Image

2. I have a single sliding glass door in my design. So far I haven't found any illustrations on how to make John's sliding glass doors. Does anybody know if these are posted anywhere? Yes, the single sliding door is on purpose. I'll explain later.

3. I have a window in the Vocal Booth. Does this window need to be two panes even though one side of it is in the air gap between rooms?

4. Is it okay not to float the floor? I don't think I have the height to spare and it is already on concrete.

5. Where do I find info on the suggested angle of the control room ceiling, or should it just be flat?

6. Where can I find info on how to build the speaker enclosure corners?

I'll stop there with the questions. Now I'll start to explain my version of the design. Hopefully some of you are interested. :)

1. Why only one sliding glass door? The sliding glass door does not have a swing like a normal door. On the control room side I need all the space I can get. On the main room side I've got a post and other doors all swinging into the same general area. This is dead space. It can't be used anyway because of the post. So, instead of wasting the effort and money on a second sliding glass door, I'm going with a regular glass door into the main room and a window into the vocal booth. John basically would not comment on this. I don't know if it is because he really didn't like it or what? I'm just not sure. I think it is a good use of space.

2. What is going on at the rear of the control room? I want to be able to get into the control room without going through the main room. So, I put a door in. I also wanted to incorporate the triangular rear wall for diffusion. So, I've attached a triangular shape "wall" to the inside door. So, when it is closed it becomes a rear wall diffuser. Is this a good idea? I think so, but maybe I'm wrong. John thinks having a couch in the middle is more important as a listening position. I personally don't agree. The two chairs in each corner could be replaced with traditional bass traps. I'm looking for guidance on this one.

3. Why are all the doors swinging outward and into the same general area? I'm doing this in the main room because the area is unusable anyway. There is a post there and also it is the throughway into the control room. So, it is dead space. Why not swing the doors into this area instead of swinging them into the small booths? Swinging them outward saves space in the booths. Also, if all the doors are full open (including those between the control and main room) there is a clear path from the control room to both booths. This is one of my "must haves."

I'm going to stop there. Really interested in hearing from you folks coming from a construction perspective.

Thanks!
jt

Posted: Mon Sep 29, 2003 5:35 pm
by knightfly
1. You should probably ask John about this, it's his design. There shouldn't be a problem with non-symmetrical bass traps, since those frequencies tend to be non=directional. I'd be more concerned with keeping the front non-glass wall (opposite the slider) live so higher freq's aren't skewed.

2. This is the only drawing I've seen, it gives an idea of specific design criteria...

http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewt ... ht=sliding

3. No, a heavier single pane would do best in that case. You should make sure the surrounding material around the openings is absorbed into the area between walls. 703 covered with dark cloth works well.

4. Not necessary to float floors unless isolation from heavy outside noise (or vice versa) is a problem.

5. Getting good RFZ angles with low ceilings can be difficult. One way would be to use 2' wide strips of plywood with 703 glued to the fronts, each strip angled up at the rear, in a sawtooth pattern so that reflections are either absorbed and/or reflected to the rear of the CR. If ceiling height is too low to even allow that, then 2-3" "clouds" stood off the ceiling by a couple inches will help.

6. Here's one

http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewt ... ght=soffit

Try searching on "soffit", I know there's a lot but I need to get to some other questions, sorry... Steve

Posted: Tue Sep 30, 2003 1:29 am
by jt
1. You should probably ask John about this, it's his design.
John, are you out there? :)
There shouldn't be a problem with non-symmetrical bass traps, since those frequencies tend to be non=directional. I'd be more concerned with keeping the front non-glass wall (opposite the slider) live so higher freq's aren't skewed.
True about bass. Maybe I can install some heavy curtains that can be pulled across the sliding glass door and window in the CR when I do critical listening? This would at least help with the high end reflections.
2. This is the only drawing I've seen, it gives an idea of specific design criteria...

http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewt ... ht=sliding
Thanks. I'd really like to see a detail on the floor track. I'm wondering if this is as simple as retrofitting an off-the-shelf sliding glass door with thick glass or if there is a very specific "soundproof" sliding mechanism?
3. No, a heavier single pane would do best in that case. You should make sure the surrounding material around the openings is absorbed into the area between walls. 703 covered with dark cloth works well.
Great, thanks for the info. I'm sorry. What is 703? My father-in-law is a builder and will be doing the work. I'm not as up on the material terms, but I'm learning fast. :)
4. Not necessary to float floors unless isolation from heavy outside noise (or vice versa) is a problem.
Great, that will save me money, time, and ceiling height. Because I have tubes imbedded in the concrete floor for heating I can not mechanically connect the walls to the floor or I'd risk puncturing one of the tubes. So the walls are being glued down. I assume this will help a little in keeping the wall vibrations from getting into the concrete?
5. Getting good RFZ angles with low ceilings can be difficult. One way would be to use 2' wide strips of plywood with 703 glued to the fronts, each strip angled up at the rear, in a sawtooth pattern so that reflections are either absorbed and/or reflected to the rear of the CR. If ceiling height is too low to even allow that, then 2-3" "clouds" stood off the ceiling by a couple inches will help.
Thanks for the tip. Any drawings of this posted anywhere? Again, I'm sorry... I'm not sure what "clouds" are in your second suggestion. I will search the forums...

I also found the info in the construction part of the SAE Manual on making ceiling panels. Do you like that method at all?
6. Here's one

http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewt ... ght=soffit

Try searching on "soffit", I know there's a lot but I need to get to some other questions, sorry... Steve
Thanks... I also found the info in the SAE Manual as well.

Sorry for so many questions. I want to provide a big picture of what I'm doing so that you can make a more informed answer. But I end up bogging people down with details. Really appreciate your time. Hope you won't mind helping us along the way? :)

jt

Posted: Tue Sep 30, 2003 7:10 am
by John Sayers
jt - the top sections are traps. The right hand one is a slot resonator whereas the rear one is heavy absorption.

Check out Silva Productions pictures at the Studios Under Construction site: http://johnlsayers.com/Studio/index.htm - Luis has great pics of construction - if you look at his control room (update 3) you'll see the slots being built and the soffit mount.

cheers
john

Posted: Tue Sep 30, 2003 2:55 pm
by jt
John Sayers wrote:jt - the top sections are traps. The right hand one is a slot resonator whereas the rear one is heavy absorption.
But I'm still really confused about the traps you proposed for my control room layout. On one side you have a slot resonator in the front and heavy absorption in the back. On the other side is nothing, and worse the untreated side has a reflective sliding glass door. Won't this feel really lopsided sonically? I understand the need for the traps, but is this really going to sound okay?
Check out Silva Productions pictures at the Studios Under Construction site: http://johnlsayers.com/Studio/index.htm - Luis has great pics of construction - if you look at his control room (update 3) you'll see the slots being built and the soffit mount.
John, thanks so much. Those are great pictures. This looks a lot like my basement. But I can't seem to find any dimensions on his rooms other than he started with 8' ceilings. Also, I can not find the orignal thread where you guys hashed out his design (yes, I looked!) :)

BTW, I've posted some pics of my basement as it is now at this link:

http://stuff.wso.net/studio1.htm

Thanks again!
jt