John Sayers' Recording Studio Design Forum Archive

I feel like Johnny come lately here. So many others have already posted similar basement studio questions. The text below also appears on the web page I've created (including illustrations), so you can just go directly there if you like:

http://stuff.wso.net/studio.htm

Any input would be greatly appreciated. Thanks so much!


Here's the text for posterity:

First of all, thanks for taking a look. Below is the original area available for the studio plus three design drafts I have created. Draft #3 is based on the information and illustrations found here. I believe Draft #3 is probably the best one as it provides the most isolation. But I'm concerned that my rooms will be too small, yet I've thought meticulously about it and I'd really like to have all of the rooms I've designed.

My father-in-law is a skilled contractor / carpenter, so I have a person to help me build. I do not have an unlimited budget, but I am willing to spend in the thousands (not 10's of thousands) in US dollars. I can probably get the glass I need very cheap or free and I will have virtually no labor costs.

In addition I have a special, very dense material available to me for free. It is called HMW Plastic (High Molecular Weight). It is a fairly ridged material and is not sold to the general public. I have a truckload of it in 4' x 10' sheets. It is 1/4" thick and weighs 1.25 lb. per sq. ft. and can be easily cut. I was planning on putting a layer of this on all sides of all walls then drywall over that. In addition I'm going to put two layers of it in the ceiling (between the joists) to help prevent sound traveling up to the first floor. Maybe there is a use for it on the studio floor, I don't know? Again, it is free for me but is very expensive to buy!

The ceiling is currently unfinished. It is made of 2" x 10" (yuck, I know) running top to bottom when looking at the drafts below. The ceiling height is between 7' and 8' depending on ductwork. There are steel beams that the posts are under. I don't think I can move the posts as they are holding up the two floors of house above. The one in the control room area will undoubtedly be a nagging issue.

The floor and walls on three sides are poured concrete. There is radiant in-floor water heating (hose with hot water flowing imbedded into the slab).

In the bottom right is a utility area. The electrical panel, water softener and water filtration system for the rest of the house is here. This space needs to be enclosed as a utility closet. There is occasional sound in this area (rushing water) so it will be heavily soundproofed from the inside.
The two doors on the left side of the studio adjoin a family game room (widescreen TV, chairs, bar, couches, etc). In Draft #3 I create symmetry in the control room by putting windows looking out into the game room. The game room could double as an extra recording space if necessary and I would still have a sight line to it.

I'm a drummer. I will always have my drums setup in the main room. The main room will also be used as a 4 to 5 piece rock band practice area, so it can't be too small.

I'll be doing hard disk recording, so I won't have a huge console.
I'll mainly be doing track-by-track recording. Occasionally I'll want to do some live demo recording and that is why I want the isolation rooms. The placement of the isolation rooms give me easy access from the control room.

The amp room is just for a guitar amp, the guitarist will stand elsewhere.
The vocal booth is not very wide, but it should be okay. If the person feels like it is too small they could stand facing the control room. This would give them the feeling of a larger room as the width would be nearly 8'.

The utility closet can double as storage and a mic closet.

THINGS I HAVE NOT FIGURED OUT YET:
1. How to isolate rooms from the floor above?

2. Do I need to isolate from the concrete slab below? I already plan on using glue on the slab for the walls. We can't put taps into the floor because we don't want to hit a water heating hose.

3. If I isolate ceiling and floor, will my ceiling height become to low?

4. I have glass doors designed into a few areas of the studio. I do not know what type of door this would be or how it would be made.

5. How much space should I leave between the poured concrete walls and each of the rooms. My current design shows no space, but I know this is incorrect.

6. I planned on using near field monitoring only, but design #3 creates a space for in wall monitors. What if I don't have any yet?

7. How are the walls inside the various "dead spaces" finished?

8. The walls will be made with metal studs, not wood. Is this good, bad, or not an issue?

9. What kind of flooring should I use? Carpet? "Fake" hardwood. I can't afford real hardwood. My personal chose is fake hardwood with throw rugs as needed.

Hey JT,

Where ya from in the US?

Anyhow, here's one idea derived from John's concepts/drawings.

I think I would be inclined to get as large as a control room as possible, as that's where you probably do most of your work/recording. You can track Vocals/guitars in the control room etc. Plus seeing as its a basement, I think getting a large live drum room sound is really not possible. (I'm in the same situation) You could always record "big room" tracks elsewhere and do overdubs at home, if you had to have that sound.

So, if the support posts have to stay , perhaps this layout would keep them out of the way while still allowing for nice line of sight between the control room and two adjacent rooms -- either of which could hold drums/guitars or vocals. The exisiting closet could be a place to stick a bass amp if needed.

It compromises a larger live room, but you could always throw open the two sliders (I drew them as 8' wide) and have a instant "larger room feel." That support pole in the middle of your control room as you drew in plan #3 seems awkward. The control room as I drew would allow for some nice deep bass trapping in the rear of the control room. It also seems to work well with the existing doors.

Best,

Dave Blauvelt


How'd I do John, anyone?

How'd I do John, anyone?

really cool Dave - that plan is a possibility.

JT - its a good area for a studio BUT those jackposts really get in the road don't they. You said your father in law was a builder. I'd get him over and sit down and discuss the possibility of moving or removing maybe one of the posts. It may mean putting a steel I beam spanning two posts like I've shown in the drawing. It may be an additional expense but it frees up a large area that could be a really nice control room size and a studio with a post in it.

I'd determine this first :)

cheers
john

Hi Dave,

I'm located in central Pennsylvania. Thanks for your input and the time you took to lay something out for me. Let me make a few comments about your drawing.

I like the larger control room and the way you did something with the posts. I *may* be able to move the post that was in the control room in my Draft #3. I have to talk to some people about it. My house is only a year old in October, so...

I might mirror your design so that the control room is aimed toward the right side not the left. This way the sound from the speakers will be farther away from living areas and right next to the concrete wall and the earth. Doing this may also allow me to put an entrance into the control room so that you don't have to walk through the live rooms, as John mentions... and I agree.

But I did like my idea of having some kind of "acoustically dead" amp only room. I'm sure that could be worked back in somewhere though.

And there is no single area large enough for a live band to practice. But you are right, the doors could be opened and the singer could be in the control room and it would just be spread out some. This would be a little cumbersome but I plan on setting up a headphone practice situation anyway.

I don't think tracking within the control room will work though. That is something I really don't want to do. I mean, a guitarist or keyboard player, sure. You can stick the amp in another room and the guy can play from the control room. But I wouldn't want the sound source in the room at all. Maybe that is what you meant?

Whew... I've come so far from my original drawing I can't believe it! I'd love your continued feedback. PLEASE, please don't take my comments as anything other than conversational. Outside input is really important and I don't want to sound ungrateful!!

Thanks so much!
jt

JT - its a good area for a studio BUT those jackposts really get in the road don't they. You said your father in law was a builder. I'd get him over and sit down and discuss the possibility of moving or removing maybe one of the posts. It may mean putting a steel I beam spanning two posts like I've shown in the drawing. It may be an additional expense but it frees up a large area that could be a really nice control room size and a studio with a post in it.

John, just got off the phone and it looks like we can probably move the post that is in the Main Room of Draft #3. He said we could probably remove it and replace it with two posts pushed far left and far right. The load on the post in the current control room location is to great to move.

So... looks like the control room will go to the bottom of the design.

John, could you take a crack at it now?

Thank you so much. I'm really getting excited about this now!

jt

Hey jt,

Glad too help any way I can. Going through design with this forum is a great way for me to learn new concepts, plus I'm getting a little practice with smartdraw, hehe -- anything I throw out is just an idea with no personal attachments here .

Persoanlly I like the idea of a large as possible live space for band rehersals plus live-let-it-bleed recording, gobos as neccesary. Moving that one pole could change the options, I'll be interested to see John's input.

The other main thing that comes to mind is how much sound proofing are you after between upstairs and the studio? With 9 ft you probably have enough room for an isolated suspended ceiling, but you will also probably have to treat the studio side of the ceiling.

Personally, I wouldn't be too set on a guitar closet, IMO. A properly designed live space can end up being very easy to work multiple mics in.

What I really like is the open sliding glass door style of John's control room, with seperate rooms on each side of the splayed walls -- seems real flexible, especially for a basement.

Keep us posted,

Dave




[/quote]

JT - its a good area for a studio BUT those jackposts really get in the road don't they. You said your father in law was a builder. I'd get him over and sit down and discuss the possibility of moving or removing maybe one of the posts. It may mean putting a steel I beam spanning two posts like I've shown in the drawing. It may be an additional expense but it frees up a large area that could be a really nice control room size and a studio with a post in it.

John, I just want to be clear that I realize that my recording rooms will not be large enough to create a "sound" of their own. I'm comfortable with close miking and plan to use that technique in most situations. I'm really most worried about isolation between rooms and from the surrounding house. And of course a good sounding control room. I never planned on in-wall monitors, only near fields. But I see you have in-walls in all of your studios so maybe it is something I should seriously consider along with the nearfields?

I hope to have one room large enough that a full 4-5 piece "rock" band could practice in. I realize that 5 would be a tight fit. 4 is a more likely scenario.

I'd also like to fit in an "acoustically dead" amp room and a small, but
comfortable vocal booth.

These are my goals. Hopefully there is some way to fit it all in.

Thanks again!

jt

maybe along this line??

cheers
john

John Sayers wrote:maybe along this line??

cheers
john

Awesome! You inspired me... I took your design and hacked it up and I've posted it below. Let me explain what I did and why.

I moved the vocal booth to the right side so that I'd have a direct sight line from the mixing position. I removed the separate door and window in the vocal booth and added a single glass door.

I moved the amp room across from the vocal booth. I changed the doors on both booths to open outward. I did this because that area is dead space as there is already a post and a throughway into the control room. This allows more space inside each booth.

Notice that I'm making the stationary section of the sliding glass door serve as a window into the vocal booth. This saves me wall space and the cost of an extra window. In my version of your illustration I didn't change the sliding glass doors to reflect the stationary one correctly, but I think you'll understand what I'm saying.

In addition I made the door into the control room (the top left one) very small. This will allow me to have more symmetry at the back wall. If I need to bring in anything large, I'll go through the live room.

Now I still have all the rooms, have a sight line to the vocal booth and more usable space in the live room.

John, your opinion? Anything look unworkable to you?

I probably wasn't clear that I *can* change the locations of the doors on the left side. They are already built but I can tear them down and start over. That is not a big deal. I should have said this before. I don't know if that would make any difference to your thought process or not?

Here's my hacked up version. Really would appreciate your feedback or even if you'd be so kind as to work up a new layout based on the changes I made. If you are too busy, please, please don't worry about it.




EDIT: While showing the layout to my wife I came up with one more little idea. At the back of the control room I've moved the door and split up the couches. Now they are smaller and could act as cornor base traps. I've put a triangle shape on the inside of the door. The door and the triangle would swing together. Neat, huh? I think so. Maybe I'm crazy. What do you think John? Good use of space? See below...



Thanks,
jt

I wouldn't use that sliding door system - I'd do it like either I've attached. The rear wall change I don't like because your friends want to sit in the stereo image, not separated like your design

cheers
john

John Sayers wrote:I wouldn't use that sliding door system - I'd do it like either I've attached.

Your right, I probably wouldn't get the sliding doors right and mess up the isolation. But I feel like the swing doors are such a waste of precious space. Remember, my dimensions aren't very large.

But theoretically, wouldn't it work the way I proposed?

John Sayers wrote:The rear wall change I don't like because your friends want to sit in the stereo image, not separated like your design

Hummm... you have me a little perplexed on this one. I'd rather my design be acoustically better. I can explain to my friends that getting a better final mix is more important than their seating arrangements.

I guess I just want to know if it makes acoustic sense to do it the way I proposed? I really don't mind losing the sweet spot seating for others. 95% of the time I'm going to be in there alone anyway.

Also, why can't the doors into the booth swing outward not inward? When the booth is so small the swing of the door creates quite a large dead zone. I'm certainly not one to second guess you, but I'd be a kicking myself later if I didn't at least ask.

Thanks again... I feel like I'm pretty close now.
jt

JT - IMO the first of the two options I just posted is your best bet with the booth and the sliding doors. (hey open the booth doors either way - it's your call) The sliders give you good vision into the studio (unlike the swung doors even if they are glass doors.) The live area is now a good size and you could easily rehearse in there and with the sliding doors open you have extra space.

Now the rear wall treatment. Firstly, for mine I like to sit back with a drink and listen back to mixes late at night and the rear couch is a great spot to lay back. The sound is softer and warmer because you are off axis to the top end of the speakers.

Acoustically, just make sure the rear wall is nice and dead - perhaps you could lean the rear wall forward at the top as we've discussed in other threads.

On the other hand maybe you could consider this - it's cheaper

cheers
john

John, on your newer designs, where you incorporate the sliding doors, you've lost the symmetry in the control room. Is that on purpose or are you assuming the other wall would be changed to match?

Understood about the control room rear wall. Sounds like you are trying to give me some "real world" advice. It might be a neat idea but I won't like the room as much, and sometimes that is just as important. Is that what you are getting at?

Your latest design is interesting but one of my requirements is that I can get into the recording rooms easily from the mixing position.

I checked out your construction pages and found diagrams for windows and doors but nothing for the sliding glass doors. You talk about them in words but no illustrations. Are they illustrated somewhere on your site and I'm just missing it? From the sounds of it these need to be built perfectly or they are just going to leak sound, so I'd want to get it right.

I showed my father in law your site last night and he liked it. He stayed up late reading all of your stuff. I think I've got him hooked now.

jt

Those are all great designs John

I think it is good advice making a dedicated producers area/late night listening spot behind the mixer -- you never know what kind of work you might get, and the guy sitting on the couch is usually paying for the session

You can get to the live room easily from that last design -- just leave the doors open in the airlock. I kind of like that airlock design -- a little more privacy in the control room, and you could then add more rear wall acoustic treatment behind the couch because you lose the door.

Then again less visibility between the two rooms The sliding doors are a really cool Sayers innovation.


<OPINION BELOW - FOR AMUSEMENT PURPOSES ONLY>

I don't know why every small basement studio thinks they need a vocal booth. You can cut vocals in the control room, not to mention in the live room with the band -- worked for Elvis, Motown and others.

I think the small studio that has to look like the large studio misses the point, unless you are trying to impress clients out of there $, because they think being in a booth is professional and that real records are made that way. If it were me , I'd keep making that live room bigger, and ditch the vocal booth. I think people and guitars stuck in closets sound like they are in closets.

A vocal booth that small probably has to be so dead, that it would be most suitable for voice-over work, not music. I'm not saying you can't cut the vocal of the century in the little thing, but it's probably more work.

Malcolm Chisholm told me this --"those things (small booth's etc) are for demos, live rooms are for making records."

Personally, I'm trying to emulate the great vibe/methodology of others I admire before me -- that said, my goals might have nothing in common with yours.

Best,

Dave

dbluefield wrote:Those are all great designs John

Agreed.

I think it is good advice making a dedicated producers area/late night listening spot behind the mixer -- you never know what kind of work you might get, and the guy sitting on the couch is usually paying for the session

Guys, I'm not in a big city. I might have a few clients a year. It is mostly for personal use. Here's the other thing. Right behind that proposed rear control room door is a LARGE game room. It will have a full high quality stereo system, widescreen HDTV, couches, bar, etc. If somebody wants to relax I can pipe the monitor mix out to the game room and they can listen to everything I do. I really want the control room the best it can be. I simply am not concerned with how comfortable the back wall will be. Got it!!

Just kidding...

You can get to the live room easily from that last design -- just leave the doors open in the airlock. I kind of like that airlock design -- a little more privacy in the control room, and you could then add more rear wall acoustic treatment behind the couch because you lose the door.

Then again less visibility between the two rooms The sliding doors are a really cool Sayers innovation.

In Recording magazine there is an ad for Emagic Logic 6. They use one of Strongroom's studios. www.strongroom.com. It shows a booth with a really nice window door (I'd like my vocal booth to have one just like it) and also a set of sliding glass doors. I went to their site and found the studio. Turns out the sliding glass doors are actually parallel. So I figure John didn't have anything to do with this studio.

Yep, I really just have to think about how I'm going to use the studio. I want it to be "friendly" for me since I'm the main customer.

<OPINION BELOW - FOR AMUSEMENT PURPOSES ONLY>

I don't know why every small basement studio thinks they need a vocal booth. You can cut vocals in the control room, not to mention in the live room with the band -- worked for Elvis, Motown and others.

I think the small studio that has to look like the large studio misses the point, unless you are trying to impress clients out of there $, because they think being in a booth is professional and that real records are made that way. If it were me , I'd keep making that live room bigger, and ditch the vocal booth. I think people and guitars stuck in closets sound like they are in closets.

A vocal booth that small probably has to be so dead, that it would be most suitable for voice-over work, not music. I'm not saying you can't cut the vocal of the century in the little thing, but it's probably more work.

Malcolm Chisholm told me this --"those things (small booth's etc) are for demos, live rooms are for making records."

I've been recording my own bands (and some clients) for 15 years and I have yearned for a vocal booth and an amp room. I'm not just pulling it out of thin air.

Also, I'm recording modern rock. There's no natural ambiance in most of it. My rooms will never have a fantastic ambiance. The ceilings are too low and the dimensions are just too small, IMO.

So, I don't mind if the booths are dead. It is what I'm anticipating anyway.

Personally, I'm trying to emulate the great vibe/methodology of others I admire before me -- that said, my goals might have nothing in common with yours.

We probably are recording different styles of music. I'm building my studio for me. If I can use it for some clients here and there, great. But I want it to work for me and do the things I want it to do. That's the way I'm trying to approach it. I'm trying to think back to all the things that annoyed me over the years in make shift setups. No sight lines, having to take the "long way around" to make adjustments in the studio, etc...

I love having somebody to discuss this with. If you are so inclined, I'd like to keep talking here.

Thanks
jt