I don't expect you to understand...

barefoot · Post by **barefoot** » Tue Sep 16, 2003 5:22 am

Yes, I certainly concede that this is YOUR personal truth. And I don't doubt that your beliefs have great impact on how you feel and conduct yourself in the world. Others believe they have found absolute truth and joy in their own God. These are personal beliefs, and personal feelings. I'm honestly happy for anyone who has found meaning in their life this way.

The point I would like to make, however, is that one's personal feelings should not be misconstrued as having any universal relevance.

Thomas

Eric Best · Post by **Eric Best** » Tue Sep 16, 2003 6:59 am

I was going to get into it on the opposite side than I normally do because I felt like Bryan was outnumbered but it looks like he has some support so I will argue it like I normally do.

The faith in the moderators that you are talking about can also be found in different ways, through different sources and resources. Didn't Jesus say "I am the way" (now you have me quoting scripture). Why is he the only way? Why is he more valid than Mohammed?

I have no doubt that religion (belief in whatever god) works, but is it because of the strength of the human brain (I have seen this many times in athletes) or God's intervention?

Eric

Post by **John Sayers** » Tue Sep 16, 2003 9:24 am

I don't really understand anything about reality - we just live in a world where we have names for things that makes us feel secure. If I were to hand you a coffee cup and asked you what it is you would reply with a whole list of names you use to describe it, like it's white, made of ceramic etc. but these are just names you've assigned to it and in fact you don't know what it is.

I find christians are the same - they have a whole list of names for god that they get from the bible yet like the cup - they don't know what it is.

cheers
JOhn

barefoot · Post by **barefoot** » Tue Sep 16, 2003 10:14 am

John,

I take this sort of argument even further. Humans find a whole list of things in nature we try to name but don't understand - where did it all come from? what is life? what am I?.... We don't really even know if the questions make sense, let alone if they have any ultimate answers. So, it comforts many of us to invent an answer. And it comforts us even more to invent an answer that is familiar. Where did it all come from? Oh, from something like us, something that thinks, something that feels. We project and extrapolate ourselves as an answer to the questions we don't understand.

Man creates God in his own image.

You say you don't envision God as an anthropomorphic being? Then why even use the term God when it clearly has all that "thinking", "feeling", and "intent" baggage associated with it? And if you can't accept that nature just IS, then how can you accept that God just IS?

The universe is much, much, more strange, mysterious and rich than some thinking, feeling, willing entity. It contains thinking, feeling, willing entities - us, other animals on this world and perhaps others. And we are a beautiful "mistake". But the universe is also much more than that. And I think it's much fun and awe inspiring to let nature reveal itself in all it's strange mysteries, rather than impose any of our anthropomorphic preconceptions.

Thomas

giles117 · Post by **giles117** » Tue Sep 16, 2003 10:54 am

What you have described Thomas is A Humanistic viewpoint Which is a religion in it's own right.

To Say we are a beautiful mistake takes a lot of FAITH in accidents.

My belief in God is based not only on faith, but real world experiences.

We can decimate that to just happenstance or chance if we choose, but we forget all of the scientifically recorded facts of peoples experiences after death before they are "brought back to life" and so on. There is so much evidence to refute that we just came into existence by accident or happenstance.

I am too intelligent to think that so much order in this world just happened by accident, and that man created God. How would man who is so limited in his thinking come up with the concept of an all-knowing, omni-present, omnipotent God?

We are not that smart. if we are sooo smart how come we have never solved problems like world hunger, etc... So that sorta jacks up the idea that man is so great. Socialism never worked and never will work. How do you change the character of man?

When we can really answer those questions maybe I can accept your misguided belief.

The only thing that makes any rational sense is the existence of God. And for christians who don't know him, they are the ones who never took the time to research who he is.

The various names for God only desribe his attributes. Just like we describe a car as sleek, sexy, smooth, racy, etc.... and anything else we choose to ascribe to it.

I am sad you think this is my personal opinion, but the Bible did say and I will repeat the scripture that has brainwashed me again....

Romans 1:20

For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

1:22

Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools

This is a hard word, but look around you. Look at what mankind has "created." Death and destruction.

Look at our Society in the US since we cast Prayer out of schools.

It has faltered.

Up until this century we were a 3rd world country.

God has always promised those who trust and believe in him he will bless, but when you turn your back on him say bye bye to the blessings. And that is what is happening here in the US. What killed the stock Market?? Greed and Then Fear. In God there is no fear.

The Bible Plainly declares that Perfect Love Casts out all fear.

So who can be afraid if they are treating others right? Who can be afraid if they are not running around being self-seeking. Looking to Gratify there flesh.

People Declare "I am good," But without God, hell will be their home.

We can dispute it but study the life after clinical death experiences that are unaltered by atheistic and agnostic doctors who would rather suppress the truth of God than declare the reality that there is something bigger than us.

My friend, the rabbit hole goes deep, Should you choose to reject this knowledge, you will pay a price and that is what I do not want others to experience. I'd rather you get the good side of things than the bad side of things.

Bryan Giles

barefoot · Post by **barefoot** » Tue Sep 16, 2003 3:23 pm

giles117 wrote:How would man who is so limited in his thinking come up with the concept of an all-knowing, omni-present, omnipotent God?

This is an old Descartes argument. Nobody I know claims to have the ability to wrap his or her mind around the concept of infinity. The concept simply comes through extrapolation. I can count to ten. I can count to a million. Any number I can count to, I can always just add one more - out to some nebulous place we call infinity. Simple extrapolation. Why is this so difficult to fathom?

We are not that smart. if we are sooo smart how come we have never solved problems like world hunger, etc... So that sorta jacks up the idea that man is so great. Socialism never worked and never will work. How do you change the character of man?

Socialism? Humans being "sooo smart"? I think you're projecting ideas into my argument that I never wrote. Considering that we emerged from the universe (i.e. we are functions of the universe) it probably holds that we have a limited capacity to understand the universe. All we can do is interpret things as best we can within the limitations of our understanding.

giles117 · Post by **giles117** » Tue Sep 16, 2003 7:09 pm

Not an argument, just a persuasion. Tad bit different.

I think those who have read the book of Acts will find the most disheartening phrase ever written.

The Apostle Paul in his conversation with King Agrippa in his attempt to lead him to Christ said these words

Acts 26:28

Then Agrippa said unto Paul, Almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian.

This has been the attempt here to provide information to lead you in the correct direction.

Mohammed came some 600 years after Christ and has never left such a mark. Even the "great" minds of the Renaissance period have not left such a mark. remember history, most of your colleges were institutions founded on the principles of God and Christianity until The Great minds of western philosophers and their knowledge infiltrated our schools. Now they to are nothing more than remodified brainwashing institutions converting people to amorality.

You will never convince me that my ancestors were apes.

Our Country was founded on these truths. It is all over our constitution and it is this truth of God and His Son Jesus that made the US a great Nation. It is also the rejection of these truths that is tearing our nation apart.

I am so sad that you have become so intellectually educated that you have left no room for the creator of our planet, universe and our very existence. That my friend is the true meaning of the scripture "Porfessing themselves wise, they became fools."

One thing about God, He gave us a choice in the beginning and he is still giving us a choice. As Joshua said to the children of Israel. Choose ye this day whom you will serve. You have chosen Science as your god. I fear for your soul. But as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.

At this point I have said my piece and....

Back to building Studios.

Bryan Giles

DDev · Post by **DDev** » Wed Sep 17, 2003 12:29 am

This has been an interesting subject to follow. I think I'm going to throw a curve ball in and take this into a bit more technical direction, if you will allow.

My belief (which I have developed as a result of study and faith in personal experiences) is that there is way too much order in our universe that defies the very science that tries to prove that this order is the result of all the right accidents happening at just the right times to create life and all the rest of what we can perceive in our universe. Statistically, there are numerous scientific proofs out there that show that the probability is extremely remote (ie. 10 to the minus 300 chance) that even a single one celled organism could arise out of the estimated number of atoms in the physical universe in the timeframe which is believed to be the age of the universe.

Now, I'm not a theoretical scientist, just an engineer, and I have not attempted to go through a thorough analysis of the scientific proofs to validate the information I have read, but there is an overwhelming body of evidence that seems to me to validate the claim that there has to be an intelligent designer behind the design of our universe. The odds of the complexity of just our own little world (let alone the entire universe) having come together through random chance prove to me, at least, that there is something more out there than what we have been able to define with our science.

I choose to believe that this intelligent designer is the God defined by the Bible as claimed by both the Jewish and Christian faiths. This is my choice because it seems that what I perceive from what I read in the Bible provides the best explanation of a God that can do everything that I think has to be attributed to an intelligence that is capable of developing the universe as I see it.

Finally, a quote from someone we've all heard of:

"We are in the position of a child entering a huge library filled with books in many different languages. The child knows that someone must have written those books. It does not know how. It does not understand the languages in which they are written. The child dimly suspects a mysterious order in the arrangement of the books but doesn't know what it is. That, it seems to me, is the attitude of even the most intelligent being toward God. We see a universe marvellously arranged and obeying certain laws, but only dimly understand those laws. Our limited minds cannot grasp the mysterious force that moves the constellations."

Albert Einstein as quoted in "Einstein: A Life" by Denis Brian [New York: J. Wiley, 1996], p. 186.

Thanks for bearing with me,
Darryl.....

Eric Best · Post by **Eric Best** » Wed Sep 17, 2003 2:08 am

A couple of things:

The difficulty with reading studies is that I have seen such contradicting statistics based upon the people who have done the study and what their goal is. It is amazing to me the difference in secular scientific "fact" and Christian science "fact" that are published. Of course being one who subscribes to the scientific method as a way of obtaining information about nature I will usually run with secular science, because Christian science fills in the gaps or the things that contradict secular science with "faith", or God did it. I look at this as a cop out. Accepting it as faith derives you of the motivation to seek in a scientific way as opposed to a spiritual way.

I have no problem with seeking in a spiritual way, BUT IT IS NOT SCIENCE. I personally find no conflict in and a belief in God and science. If you asked most scientists they will tell you that they believe in God and I find no contradiction in traditional science as it is taught in schools today (unfortunately not allways as well as it should) and a belief in God, whereas some Christians find contradiction with it. I feel that God would not have designed our brains (if he did) to be able to analyze directly according to the scientific method.

I have been told by some of the people I hang with, that the scientific method is my faith and it contradicts their faith. Poppycock! (I always wanted to write that word in a sentence). We all operate on the scientific method every moment of or life.

1. We are constantly observing and measuring
2. We are always trying to make conclusions based on our observations and measurements.
3. We test these conclusions all the time
4. If one of our tests turns out not to be correct we re-adjust our conclusion.
5. If something repeatedly passes the tests we feel very comfortable with our conclusion. This does not mean that our conclusion is guaranteed to be correct all of the time, we just have not experienced anything to contradict it yet.

Compare this to how a relationship evolves with another person. Compare this to how you learn every day. All sane people think way (including 99.9 percent of all very religious people). Most people have come to their religion by reasoning with the scientific method.

Also the god defined by the bible is also the god of the Muslim faith

Enough ranting for now

barefoot · Post by **barefoot** » Wed Sep 17, 2003 2:40 am

giles117 wrote:"Porfessing themselves wise, they became fools."

This is a very fundamental point that I think you and other religious people miss. In its purest sense, science doesn’t claim to be "wise". Science begins with the premise that we are ignorant. We don't know how or why the world works. We observe the world as best we can with our limited faculties and try to draw consistencies. We let the world unfold itself.

We don't start out with the premise that we KNOW the "ultimate cause" and then try to paint everything we observe in that light.

Darryl,

Statistics are meaningless unless the statistical model bears some relationship to the physical phenomena it is intended to represent.

If rain falls on a mountaintop, which way will the water flow? Blind statistics might tell you there are an infinite number of directions in 3-dimensional space - up, down, and sideways. But we know very well that the river flows DOWN. We might not be able to predict the exact path, but it will indeed flow downward. Water, as with everything we have yet observed in the universe, obeys the 2nd law of thermodynamics - every event ultimately generates a net gain in entropy.

Scattered raindrops will often coalesce into rivers and lakes on their way down the mountain. These quasi-ordered structures reduced entropy in the short term, but they are just sidetracks or even express paths on they way to net entropy gain.

All the ordered structures we have ever observed are like those lakes and rivers. Life is no different. Everything lifeforms do, every biochemical reaction, every thought, every mitosis, every dream, requires energy. We are, in essence, little heat engines proliferating entropy into the universe. We are little rivers running down hill.

Blind statistics tells you nothing. You need to know the propensities of each element of the system you are studying.

Here's an interesting article related to this topic. http://www.arn.org/docs2/news/challenge ... 121001.htm It describes a new theory that might just be the biggest revolution in physics since quantum mechanics. It is essentially a fundamental theory based on the well known fact that order can and often does fall out of chaos - no supernatural intervention required.

Thomas

DDev · Post by **DDev** » Wed Sep 17, 2003 5:21 am

It is interesting to see how much disparity there is in the scientific community (and not just between Christian and non-Christian views but between those not professing any tie to a religious belief) when it comes to the subject of the origins and "design" of the universe. The article Thomas linked in is just another example. I think what it really boils down to is that there are still huge gaps in our understanding of the universe around us, and even when someone develops what appears to be a foolproof model we will still question the validity of it because it is our nature to not want to trust any evidence we don't derive for ourselves. What seems to be solid and worthy of believing to me will be full of holes to someone else. And vice versa.

I wish I had purchased a copy of a book I read 4 or 5 years ago by a theoretical physicist (non-Christian) that I had borrowed from a friend. I cannot remember the author's name or I'd go find it and see if my memory is still sane, but the gist of my earlier argument was based on what I remembered from his book. That doesn't add to my credibility, I know, but I wanted to be sure that you recognize that I don't limit myself only to "Christian" publications (I just wish I had more time to spend devouring everything I can get my hands on....but I've got to finish that mix...).

Regardless...

Statistics are a funny animal, which is why I included the caveat that I hadn't done the math myself, and I agree that they have to be taken at face value and evaluated for their validity to the phenomena being represented.

And then there is entropy. I need to brush up on my thermodynamics (its been 20 years since I had to really think about it). If I remember correctly (please correct me on this since I am spouting off the top of my head), entropy basically is the process where ordered states gradually fall into disorder. If our universe is a closed system, and the 2nd law of thermodynamics still applies, then it seems to me that the concept that order can increase (ie. the complexity of a single cell becoming multiple cells that can migrate into specialized functions) is contrary to what we believe to be universal, natural laws. I guess, for me, it boils down to the fact that from my viewpoint I need a concrete proof that can validate the non-existence of a supreme designer of the universe. And this gets us back into that personal experience arena that does not carry its weight in a scientific debate.

I realize that I am not an expert on these issues, just a student trying to discern what I am capable of understanding about this universe of ours.

Thanks for bearing with my verbosity.

Darryl.....

cadesignr · Post by **cadesignr** » Wed Sep 17, 2003 5:48 am

Is it time to adjourn yet? I'm thirsty, and I have to go to the bathroom.

fitz

ps, Darryl, you havn't seen verbosity untill you've read my posts!

barefoot · Post by **barefoot** » Wed Sep 17, 2003 7:27 am

(clears throat)..... Well, seeing as I'm the one who started this thread, I guess I'll take the gavel.

>knock!< >knock!<

The meeting is officially adjourned! Bathrooms are down the hall and to the left.

DDev · Post by **DDev** » Wed Sep 17, 2003 7:48 am

Amen...

cadesignr · Post by **cadesignr** » Wed Sep 17, 2003 7:51 am

"Dib's on the bathroom".... "excuse me, coming through!"