I don't expect you to understand...

bigdaddyd · Post by **bigdaddyd** » Mon Sep 13, 2004 11:51 pm

the funny thing is, Ive lived my whole life with people lightly or violently disagreeing. I'm ok with basically being called uneducated, uninformed, etc. Instead of sharing ideas, most people go straight for personal accusations when religion is duscussed. doesnt bother me.

consider more proof. Were only discussing, so relax.

the bible says the isrealites wandered about aimlessly as a punishment. this happened at about the same time as the Egyptians were doing their thing. a HISTORIAN named Josephus recorded that:
the ancestors of the Jews “entered Egypt in their myriads and subdued the inhabitants,” and then Josephus says that Manetho “goes on to admit that they were afterwards driven out of the country, occupied what is now Judaea, founded Jerusalem, and built the temple.”

The record that the egyptians keep on the walls in paintings never record unfavorable accounts. they were too pridefull, so its not wonder that the record of their prophisied defeat was foretold, but never recorded for a record in their way. Other HISTORIANS recorded it as quoted above. It was also recorded in the bible.

Jerimiah 25: 17 And I proceeded to take the cup out of the hand of Jehovah and to make all the nations drink to whom Jehovah had sent me: 18 namely, Jerusalem and the cities of Judah and her kings, her princes, to make them a devastated place, an object of astonishment, something to whistle at and a malediction, just as at this day; 19 Phar´aoh the king of Egypt and his servants and his princes and all his people;

It was foretold, accomplished, and recorded. Just like the flood, foretold, accomplished completed, recorded. There have been hieroglyphics that have confirmed this. You see, whenever a hieroglyphic depicted a nation, it had a symbol that also depicted a location or a land or area they occupied. The isrealite nation has been identified in hieroglyphics, only they had no land symbol, they were wandering. their lack of a more recorded history is due to the fact that they defeated the egyptians, and there was a ruler that the following ruler did not like, so he had a couple hundred years of writings chiseled out of the walls. Now this is information directly out of geologist studies so to deny is to deny the writings of modern professionals. I have done my research.

And in brief- Archeologists have dug up the city where sodom and gamorah was located and unearthed a soil/ rock mutation (for lack of a better term) that is common only as a result of a nuclear blast. dont argue the point. Research it an you'll find its true. The creator rained down fire from heaven and destroyed the city.

Like 17:28 Likewise, just as it occurred in the days of Lot: they were eating, they were drinking, they were buying, they were selling, they were planting, they were building. 29 But on the day that Lot came out of Sod´om it rained fire and sulphur from heaven and destroyed them all. 30 The same way it will be on that day when the Son of man is to be revealed.

One more thing, why is it that when someone says the ark: a manmade object is at the top of a mountain, all these other manmade objects are pointed out. My point is being made for me. A lot of these other sites are also ancient cities and cultures referred to in the scriptures. Thank you....

Have fun..

giles117 · Post by **giles117** » Tue Sep 14, 2004 12:42 am

That is interesting Barefoot, but as bigdaddy stated this is not a personal attack.

Imean you should know this one for certain.

just becasue 2 microphones have the same exact test measurements does not mean that they sound exactly alike to the listener.

So scietific data can only take you so far before what they call real world testing shows forth.

And real world testing is not truly scientific as it is based on individual preference, etc....

So back to my statement.

Faith based ideals can be proven.

The bible breaks it down like this.

Heb 11:1 NOW faith is the substance of things hoped for.

To help you out Faith is THE SUBSTANCE. or substantive evidence of what it is you are hoping for.

So what the heck is faith then.

James adds another dimension to what faith really is.

James 2:14-18 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, 16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? 17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. F7 18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without F8 thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

So in a nutshell Faith for a Bible Believing Christian is acting on what you believe. Science in its base form is a faith based belief.

You believe your tests will yeild consistent results. So you develop test instruments. But YOU developed them. a Man. man who has proven himself to be VERY FALLIBLE.

So you have FAITH in your test instruments.

I Could go on for hours and I;d be at the same place. This is all ruled by faith.

Science, Religion, etc... they are all a faith based belief systems.

trust me if you did not have faith in your test instruments.... well you know the answer no matter how much you argue.

barefoot · Post by **barefoot** » Tue Sep 14, 2004 3:01 am

bigdaddyd wrote:the funny thing is, Ive lived my whole life with people lightly or violently disagreeing. I'm ok with basically being called uneducated, uninformed, etc. Instead of sharing ideas, most people go straight for personal accusations when religion is duscussed. doesnt bother me.

Just to be clear, I was only saying that your understanding of geology seems limited. And I think this is fair because you were trying to put up geological arguments that contradict very well understood science. If you want debate scientific issues, then you should have a good understanding of those issues.

For example, I would never get into a debate over the merits of Episcopalianism versus Methodism. I don't know enough about the details of the Bible to make any worthwhile contribution. On the other hand, if anyone wants to make scientific assertions using their religious texts, I think I'm well qualified to debate those.

barefoot · Post by **barefoot** » Tue Sep 14, 2004 4:55 am

bigdaddyd wrote: consider more proof. Were only discussing, so relax......

...... the bible says the isrealites wandered about aimlessly as a punishment. this happened at about the same time as the Egyptians My point is being made for me. A lot of these other sites are also ancient cities and cultures referred to in the scriptures.

So, if I understand you correctly, you're arguing that the Bible is fact because it makes reference to historical events? Well, so does the Koran. So do the Vedas. So do the Odyssey and the Iliad. Does this prove that Islam, Hinduism, and ancient Greek religion are true? Just because your religious text makes references to actual historical events doesn't mean that the supernatural explanations of those events are valid.

giles117 wrote:just becasue 2 microphones have the same exact test measurements does not mean that they sound exactly alike to the listener.
So scietific data can only take you so far before what they call real world testing shows forth. And real world testing is not truly scientific as it is based on individual preference, etc....
trust me if you did not have faith in your test instruments.... well you know the answer no matter how much you argue.

Well, if you were a scientist you would know that when the experimental results show something completely unexpected, the first thing you do is go over your test equipment with a fine tooth comb. If the equipment is found to be trustworthy, then you have to start questioning your theories. You may actually be measuring the wrong thing, or your measurements might not encompass all the parameters of the thing you're testing.

If two microphones have the same frequency response and distortion measurements, yet clearly sound different, does this mean that those measurements are meaningless? No, it simply means that those measurements do not give a complete picture of the device's characteristics. It means we need to develop new measurements that will capture those audible differences.

Your religious faith begins with a text and attempts to make the universe conform to its stories. Science starts with the universe as it presents itself and attempts to build a story that conforms to the evidence. You're trying the make the universe fit into one book. Scientists have fill thousands of libraries with our story of the universe. The story is constantly be revised and expanded. And we've barely scratched the surface. Surely you must see this difference?

bigdaddyd · Post by **bigdaddyd** » Tue Sep 14, 2004 10:00 am

If science is right, we are all headed for death. Then what. nothing. forever. Stop and think about that, seriously. Now...

If there is a creator, and he made this wonderful universe, and the earth and there is proof, enough for those who want to believe, and there is an eternal future- and life..... not death... to look foreward to, which would you rather have if you were forced to pick.

The loving thing about the creator is he wont force you to take life. He didnt force those in the flood. 8 people survived out of how many? could have been hundreds of thousands, millions even. They laughed as he built the ark. ridiculed him. Well, the rains came.

sodom- they didnt listen. the earth today holds proof of their outcome. Just Lot and a couple of family members made it out.

the creator has issued a warning. It is my job to look out for others by trying to inform them and come to an accurate knowledge before time is up. Look up a few of the scriptures Ive quoted and think about it. Peace and security, religions fall. Its unfolding in front of you now.

thats all. I do thank you all for not booing me out and letting the light shine.

g

barefoot · Post by **barefoot** » Wed Sep 15, 2004 2:00 am

bigdaddyd wrote:If science is right, we are all headed for death. Then what. nothing. forever. Stop and think about that, seriously. Now...

If there is a creator, and he made this wonderful universe, and the earth and there is proof, enough for those who want to believe, and there is an eternal future- and life..... not death... to look foreward to, which would you rather have if you were forced to pick.

Well, you're certainly free to wish and believe whatever you like. It doesn't change the reality of the situation. Though, it may alter how you feel about it.

I have no problem with the idea of death being the end of me. There were 15 billion years that came before me, and I don't worry about the fact that I wasn't around then. One's life begins at some point and ends at some point. It's just the way it is. I'm not saying I care to go soon. I'm an animal and we're wired for self-preservation. Plus I want stick around to see my little girl grow up.

My only idea "life" after death is that there are reverberations of all the things we have done and ideas we have shared. Just as our thoughts and actions ripple through the world when we're alive, they will continue to ring out for a while after we die. I even believe that Jesus still "lives" in this sense. His ideas and wisdom still ring loudly. So do the ideas and wisdom of Muhammad, Confucius, the Buddha, Shakespeare, Newton, Einstein, Galileo, Zarathushtra,...................................................................

bigdaddyd · Post by **bigdaddyd** » Wed Sep 15, 2004 5:15 am

You mentioned your little girl. Does the though of seeing her grow up, see her children, their children, and on for eternity sound appealing at all???!!!

Its held out before us. If there is even a hint of curiosity- one could look into it and make an educated decision. Like I said before, I'm no holly roller. Believng what I do and trying to keep my life in harmony with it is the most difficult thing I can evere think of. Its my nature to be loud, rowdy, obnoxious, vulgar, etc. The change has left me with a pupose, more respect from respectful individuals, and peace of mind. Best thing of all, no obligation. I'm tellin you, be sure before you turn your back. You can look into it just for the sake of the love for your daughter and family-

Mathew 7:13 “Go in through the narrow gate; because broad and spacious is the road leading off into destruction, and many are the ones going in through it; 14 whereas narrow is the gate and cramped the road leading off into life, and few are the ones finding it.

Psalms 37: 10 And just a little while longer, and the wicked one will be no more;
And you will certainly give attention to his place, and he will not be.
11 But the meek ones themselves will possess the earth,
And they will indeed find their exquisite delight in the abundance of peace....

v.29 The righteous themselves will possess the earth,
And they will reside forever upon it.

Everyone should check it out. ...

barefoot · Post by **barefoot** » Wed Sep 15, 2004 6:12 am

I am familiar with Christianity. I grew up in a Christian family and a predominantly Christian country. As a child I used to believe in God, the devil, angels and all those things. I also believed in Santa Clause and the Tooth Fairy. As I matured I learned about the world, and have always been curious to learn even more. Personally I find the realities of the world much more compelling and interesting than the fantasies of religion.

bigdaddyd · Post by **bigdaddyd** » Wed Sep 15, 2004 8:33 am

Well, this sounds like a good time for me to mark shut up LOL.

Finally I can browse the rest of this site again..

g

Post by **John Sayers** » Wed Sep 15, 2004 10:29 am

When I started this forum I wasn't sure whether to add a wombat hole or not - I was hoping for some humorous threads but knew there would be the political and religious threads which can deteriorate into a mud slinging match.

Well - this is the first religious thread and I commend you all for the manner in which this thread was posted.

May the force be with you

:)

Cheers
john

Eric Best · Post by **Eric Best** » Thu Sep 16, 2004 7:43 am

Many biblical scholars disagree with the purpose of Genesis. The purpose of the poetry in Genesis was to show that God had created all of these thing so you should not worship the Sun, the heavens, the Earth, the Moon ...... ahead of god. "thou shall have no other gods before me." According to some Biblical scholars that was the purpose go Genesis, not to tell how it really happened.

If you would have described the formation of the universe and solar system that we use today to man at the time the bible was writen no one would have understood a word of it. When you are teaching, you must know your audience. If you start talking about things they don't have any reference to at all they will shut you right out. You teach children to count before Calculus.

To use a document that was written thousands of years ago with primitive man as the target audience to describe the formation of the universe today is absurd. That would be like explaining gravitational theory to a group of Physics PhDs by saying that the apple fell on Newton's head.

Barefoot you explained the Geology very well (thats coming from a former Geology teacher). I wish all of my students could do that well.

Eric

giles117 · Post by **giles117** » Fri Sep 17, 2004 12:22 am

Barefoot, i will add this.

With regards to the measurements. you understood my point.

you dont have the whole picture.

So why argue or discuss something you dont truly understand.

Growing up christian is not enough to Understand god (as the bible presents him) If you truly grew up Christian Meaning you HAD a personal relationship with God then you would have read passages like If you dont continue in my ways i will blot you out of the book, Train up a child in the way he should go and he will not depart form it and so on.

But a relationship with God is forever the issue, not growing up something. People grow up Catholic and still have abortions by the dozens. Did growing up in a family that observed these traditions matter? no, the lack of Personal relationship with God is evident in their growing up. A tree is known by the fruit it bears.

Men grow up male and decide to become homosexual. So that point of yours is really pointless. Or is it. I guess in your case the proof is growing up something is of no true beneficial effect cuz you walked away from how you "grew up"

Where your growing up FAILED you was in not directing you to develop a personal relationship with god.

Now on the other side of things, if you TRULY had a personal relationship with God and you CHOSE to walk away from that relationship then all I can do is quote you this scripture and say what Christ always said... be it unto you according to YOUR faith.

Remember Morals are nice but morals are not absolute. God is absolute and that is the fight here. He specifies doing right not wrong. he shows us through the records of the bible the benefits of right and the penalties of wrong.

He even told Joshua, I have set before you life and death, choose Life so your family may live.

and when we say live... remember proverbs says the memory of the Just is blessed.

Well here is the verse...

I John 5:16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.

Keying in on the Sin Unto Death....

It would take me about 12 pages of theological and verse representation and this is not the forum for that so I will summarixe. (BTW I went to Bible School for 4 years so I am qualified in Mans perception to speak on these things)

The Sin unto death is the sin that leads one to hell. Basically in a nut shell...The blaspheming of the Holy Ghost in the testimony that he has given to Christ and his gospel, and a total apostasy from the light and convictive evidence of the truth of the Christ and his Death burial and resurrection.

At which point I leave this thread till a year from now. LOL

giles117 · Post by **giles117** » Fri Sep 17, 2004 12:32 am

I thought I was done but there is one other thing.

In my own personal Life...growing up Christian...

I attended bible School and "lived right for a season" but then I was hit with some life changing events that really took the wind out of my sails.

I allowed those things to cuase me to stray from God during that season.

I had great financial blessings and all the trappings of succes during this period but I was totally unhappy cuz I had ended my relationship with God. He still wooed me as was evident everywhere I went but I igni=ored him. Then one day it all hit home and I was pissed at God. yelled at him, argued at him ,etc...

Then one day i "woke" and remembered this simple verse in james.

Draw near to me and I will Draw near to you.

On that day i chose to redevelop my relationship with him. it was simple. I just talked to him from time to time throughout the day and lo and behold the relationship improved.

This is not quatifiable by yuour methonds of naturally tangible evidence, but it is quantifiable from every one who "knew me when."

My Joy came back, My vision for the future came back all because i made a step and started talking to god again and listening when he talked to me.

A relationship with god is a very personal thing. And that is the main thrust of the Bible. relationship.

What has happened to you Barefoot is the relationship has been destroyed. But it wasnt God's fault. it was a choice you made form what you saw. trust me we all have seen some stuff. I had family rejecting me, people I loved calling me a heathen cuz I decided to go on tour with a secular group, all kinds of judgemental crap. and I strayed from my relationship with god. But you know that showed a fallacy. My relationship was based on others perception and not my intimate time with god.

only when I decided to talk to him and really get to know him did it all turn around.

When I yell from the mountaintops it is from the perspective of an abused person who sought out the love of his heavenly father who turned my heart and showed me a better way. I have all the theology in the world. Study it night and day, but it never answered the Question of who god was. Only trhough relationship and communication did I get those questions answered. yes the Bible is "technically" archeaic, but as a car manula does not explain internal combustion, but rather proper operation, so goes the Bible.

I urge you to not look at this from a religious debate but a relationship intreaty. Take the time to talk to him and let him love on you. Then you will see what I am really talking about.

Peace and hair grease. Gotta run son.

barefoot · Post by **barefoot** » Fri Sep 17, 2004 2:03 am

Eric Best wrote: .....To use a document that was written thousands of years ago with primitive man as the target audience to describe the formation of the universe today is absurd.....

I see what you're saying Eric, but where does the cherry picking end? The earth being created in 7 days is a metaphor, but a 600 year old man loading all the animals into a boat is reality? A seven headed beast is a metaphor, but parting the Red Sea is reality? Walking on water is a metaphor, but resurrection is reality? See my point?

DDev · Post by **DDev** » Fri Sep 17, 2004 5:22 am

Wow, I can't believe this thread got resurrected. I kinda figured at the end of it a year ago that we had all determined that we agreed to disagree (although I enjoy the debate immensly!!).

Now, I'm going to have to dig up some of my reading material from the last year so I can provide some biased scientific data from a Bible-believing pseudo-scientist (that is spelled "degreed engineer") so I can enter back in. Or not. I hate to play the adversary, but this is one of my favorite fields of study (right up there with studio design!!).

Darryl.....