John Sayers' Recording Studio Design Forum Archive

First of all I feel the need to say that this site is THE one and only resource for studio/acoustics/construction, this forum just owns!
Okay having said that..

Hai there,
My name is Roman, from the Netherlands (Leeuwarden to be exact)
I'm running a rehearsal studio for bands which has 3 floors. It also has a low budget control room on the 3rd floor. I've been reading this forum for a few years already since I planned a remodeling of the rehearsal building but never got to it. Lately there's been some inspections (fire departement and local government for isolation standards etc.) and, as I expected, I didn't pass.
Well, I wanted a make over anyway... So, not a better time than now to catch up on my studio construction.

Been reading the whole forum for the last 2 weeks just to get comfortable with technical terms, standards, acoustics, materials and what not. Still got some questions tho.

here are my plans:
Re build all floors, starting with the 2nd floor (building up experience by starting with just 1 room)
1st floor: entrance, stair, little space to store bikes and 1 rehearsal room
2nd floor: stairs, relax area and 1 rehearsal room
3rd floor: stair, rehearsal/recording room, control room
Exterior wall: 1 layer of (solid) bricks
Floors: ground floor is concrete, 2nd and 3rd are wood "resting" on 300 mm thick wooden carrier beams. spaced about 100cm apart (ctc)

2nd and 3rd floor have windows which will be closed up
No broken windows afaik. 1 fire escape per floor (within the rehearsal rooms).

dimensions: 3,5mx10mx2,45m per floor (not that big/wide)

Dunno exact specs of the building (yet). By the looks of it, it's a 100mm thick brick wall (bricks are layered in length irc. have to check again). The walls will be rendered with cement on the inside. That's already covered.

Budget: about $4000


Most important is to isolate sound from inside going outside the building. Acoustics inside are second to concert about.
have to do pre DB testing to see what's the TL in current state

Accoustics
Using panels etc to improve acoustics inside. will do that stuff later on, isolation is most important right now.

electrical
Will be covered by present experts, completely rewire the building

climate
We want air refreshing since rooms will be closed isolated. using 2 channels, air in and out. Will be covered by present experts

completely isolate all (rehearsal) rooms by building a room in a room by:
- Adding floating floor (rubber/neoprene+frame+insulation+plywood+carpet/lamination)
- Building frame in front of exterior walls(MAM: (ext.wall +) air+metal studs+insulation (cheap stuff, open cell)+2x5/8Gyps)
- Building separation walls (MAM: 2x5/8+frame+insul+air+frame+insul+2x5/8 )
- Adding ceiling (insulate+RC+1x5/8 Gyps. only 1 layer since transm.loss from floor to floor isn't THAT important in this case). Only ceiling in 3rd floor may need extra layer.

Caulk and stuff.. the works. (Still looking around for a good acc.caulking seller)

Q:
(1) I've seen documents about using STEEL and WOOD studs. Seems like Steel's the way to go (slightly improved STC), easy construction. I'm a bit worried about the stability tho... Wood seems stronger. Will steel studs hold 2x5/8 Gyps weight? Any one done that?

(2) Do I build the walls ON TOP of the floating floor, or do a put the floor INSIDE the walls? (I'm concerned 'bout weights/rubber compression etc)

(3) Is it wise to add insulation on the inside of the exterior walls? (to create: wall+insul+air+insul+wall). any examples if so? (on how to mount, should I add another frame to the brick wall?)

I quess more Questions later

ps. currently drawing plans using microsoft Visio. But could not find any shapes for Insulation, RC etc. Any one?

regards, Ro.

Aloha and welcome to the Forum Ro,

I seem to recall reading several threads pointing out the issues that need to be considered when mulitiple floors are concerned, particularly in reference to the load bearing capabilities. One of the side effects of achieving isolation is the increased amount of weight that the structure needs to support.

Perhaps a forum search on the topic would prove fruitful. as well as talking to a structural engineer.

Be safe.

Aloha

The building is an old storagehouse and has heavy support beams. It's already heave loaded. Don't think it'll be a problem.

Can you describe more thoroughly the existing construction - materials, thicknesses, state of repair (holes in walls, broken windows, whatever)?

You mentioned brick walls, are these 50x100x400mm or other, laid so the wall is 100mm thick or 400mm thick? Are the bricks visible or are they "rendered" with mortar?

Don't worry about long posts, this is a detail-oriented endeavor.

Am I correct in assuming you want to have several bands, probably metal-oriented, LOUD, all rehearsing at once and NOT wanting to play to the OTHER band's beat??

What's your rough budget?

Also, if you re-read the "don't even THINK..." post and follow ALL the BOLD points, it will help us help you quicker... Steve

i've edited my first post with extra details:

Dunno exact specs of the building (yet). By the looks of it, it's a 100mm thick brick wall (bricks are layed in length irc. have to check again). The walls will be rendered with cement on the inside. That's already covered.
Jup, metal, rock. whatever. Not all to crowded every night, about 3 bands per floor. Every floor "rests" on 300 mm thick woodcarrier. Groundfloor is concrete, rest is wood. No broken windows afaik. 1 fire escape per floor (within the rehearsal rooms).

Budget: about $4000

Don't worry, we have some "experts" for construction work but none for the real soundproof/isolation/accoustuc stuff but me. I'm a techhead who knows how to handle tools too Building structures is not foreign to me but making them soundproof is something else eh.

Yeah, soundproofing is anything but intuitive - I still need more info on your building before knowing if it's doable though - you say there's 300mm beams, but how far apart are they, what's their longest unsupported distance (span), what EXACTLY is the flooring on top of them, etc?

The level of detail we need is pretty deep, if we're gonna get this right; deep enough that I could go out and buy the materials and BUILD your building.

Otherwise, I'm just talking out my rear here (might be anyway )

How many rehearsal rooms total? I think I got lost on that one.

Oh, and WHY did you not pass inspection? Might help to know that too... Steve

* Why I did not pass code Quess... it ain't soundproof and I got complains from neighbours. Also fire inspections did not pass, too many materials that are e.z. flameable.
--------------------------------
Okay, I haven't been poking my noose lately. done more research and reading on specs. Got specs from my building and made a first plan. Done some drawing in Visio (I was new to that program, but got the hang of it )

Here are the exact dimensions:

10,30m x 3,90m x 7,5m (lxwxh)

Building consists of 3 floors, all of equal floorspace.
floorspace per floor = 990cmx345cm [about 33'x11.5'], 245cm [8.2'] in height
Outer brickwall, 200mm [7.8"] wide rendered on the inside (but with cracks and holes so I need to fix that)
Support beams, 70mmx230mm, are spaced about 110cm [43"] (ctc) and max span = about 350cm [13.8"]


Here's the plan foor the first floor (groundlevel)
On the right is the entrance and the stairs to the next floor. Left is the first rehearsal room. All rooms will have a gypsumboard wall using metalstuds (100mm) stuffed with Isover Sonepanel 100mm (only found specs for 90mm)

Same plan for the other floors:
Floor 1


Floor 2, plan A

Plan B

(there are windows on the topfloor which have to be closed/beafed up)

Floorplan B advantage against plan A
(in plan A the studiocontrol room is called "opslag"..gheh)
- More actual space in rehearsal room
- Better isolation between room and neighbours (at the right)
- escape doors are better to reach

Downside: "studio controlroom" (ahum) is not locked and close to stairways. BUT, it's only a seperated room to get instruments recorded. Actual studio space is @ another location (for mixing, mastering etc). This only to record heavy instruments like Drumkits. Also fire-exit doors must have extra mass.

The only important matter here is to isolate rooms, so neighbours can't complain
(oh, and have it fire save ofcourse)

As you can see, all floors will have a room-in-room construction. Since the outerwall is brick I can go somewhat easy on the gypsum (hence the 12.5mm / 1/2") Hell, I haven't found a vendor who could even sell me the 5/8" thick boards!
This will rate as STC 90+ not?

Materials to be used

walls:
Gypsumboard 12,5mm (240cmx120cm), 3 layers
u + c metalstuds 100mm
Isover sonepanel isolation sheets 100mm

Ceiling
RC8 Resilient channel
Gypsumboard 12,5mm (240cmx120cm), 2 layers
Isover sonepanel isolation sheets 100mm

(floating) Floor:
Woodframe (38mmx50mm / 1.5"x2")
Resting on U-Boat floorfloaters (auralex)
MDF 12mm
Laminated prolly.


... I do have some questions left. Will be posting them next.

And now for the questions...

Room accoustics
As you might have noticed I used parallel walls since space is spare. (only about 11 foot wide), there's a minimum angle to be used which I forgot at this very moment
I've considered building one of the walls like this the next picture. But that'll take some extra time and mudding etc.


So, in order to get better room accoustics, I was planning on adding bass/broadband traps, diffusers etc. Any thoughts on that?

Another thing, could I build corcerbasstraps withing the wall? like the next picture shows? My guess is not, but I'm never sure... gheh.

..first of all *BUMP *

Yes, it's been a while but I've done some homework as well as hanging out here.

updates:
- A accoustical test will be performed in the next weeks which will tell us what the weakpoints are for the building. Will be done by a pro engineering compagny. The results will also be used to add to the permit request towards the government. lotsa bureacrats there.... man!
- The "plan" has been made and is close to get finished. I wanted to do some last checks here on the board.
- Been collecting materials in the meantime, like heavy doors, airfans etc (mostly donations and such)

Well. mkay. There's still so much questions....

Building
Have to talk to structural engineer concerning my support beams, as stated earlier, they're some heavy bastards but I just wanna be sure. The building was build for storage and it indeed 'looks' like every floor can take some major mass.
3 floors, 1 reh.room per floor. 3rd floor with "studio control room", it's only for tracking. Mixing will be done somewhere else so no real heavy accoustic adjustments needed.

support beams: (will take pictures soon)
70mm x 230mm, 110cm spaced apart. 3,50 meters in length
(2.75" x 9", 3.6' spaced apart. 11.6' in length)
They are in good shape

ext walls:
20cm (7.8") thick brickwall, with cement mortal on the inside but heavilly damaged (have to re-do that, about 2.5' thick)

windows:
On the 3rd floor there are a row of windows. the wood is rotten. I will remove them in total and fill it with bricks.
Other floors have 2 windows on one side, I will use 12mm (1/2') MDF wood with wool to cover them up after I removed the glass. Maybe I will even fill it with bricks as I will on the 3rd floor, not sure yet.

Rehearsal rooms:
Room-in-room principle. Or atleast the walls. Only the rooftop will be extra beefed. Since soundtransmission isolation inside the building, from floor to floor, isn't the highest priority.

single frame next to ext wall to add 2nd leaf with airgap between, double frame to seperate rooms.
Metalstudframes, 10cm / 3.9' thick, with isover sonepanel glasswool panels. 2 or 3 x 12mm (1/2') gypsum. The total layers needed will depend on the result of the accoustic tests.

2 solidcore doors to enter the room, sealed and what not. Iso added on the inside to absorp waves. I've already got some good solid doors which I collected the last couple of months. those are some real heavy monsters! (man, my back.... )

The new build (extra) walls will be build on top of new/beefed floor. Don't know about floating the floors yet. It's not really necessary other than stop flanking noises from rehearsal rooms to connected spaces like relax-room, studio control room. ** Any advice on that?
(floating floor results in hight costs)

Ceiling will be beefed by adding gypsumsheets betweeen support beams. Sealed ofcourse. Only 3rd floor will have extra ceiling hanged on RC (since it's the topfloor and sound will leak through the roof)

Every floor will have a fire escape which is sealed with solid core doors (2)
This will be my major concern. Can't affort any flaws here. Don't want no leak of escaping waves here. Will prolly add some extra mass to the already heavy doors by adding a sheet of gypsum to it. ** any advice?

accoustics
As stated, isolation is the main goal here. Ofcourse we need the rooms to be gently in sound. So after building the darn monster I'm gonna test the room and add absorbative panels and what not. But that's a concern for later. I will, however, build bass-traps in the corners as much as possible.

other
Electricity and airflow will be done by myself and some friends who are experts in that area (I myself am a certified electrician... or I was atleast )
Airrefresh within 1 hour foor all rooms by tube-fans with accoustic breaks and all that. This will be another leak-risk so we have to plan this one carefully. ** any advice I don't already know?


Materials
wall:
Metalstuds, 10cm frame
ISOver sonepanel wool pannels, 10cm
Gypsumsheet 12,5mm, 240 x120cm

floor:
MDF 12mm 122*244
U-boat rubber for floating floor (if I will float any floor)
Finished wood/laminate... dunno yet. no carpet for sure.

ceiling:
Auralex Resilient Channel
Gypsumsheet 12,5mm, 240 x120cm

sealant:
Dunno yet, not much choise here in Holland. How's the stopgap from auralex? (it's not cheap, that's for sure!)

door:
Solid core (2)
ISOver sonepanel wool pannels, 10cm for absortion betewen 2 doors.

glas: (studio control room)
Laminated 12mm 120x60cm



Right, some questions there but most stuff is covered yet. Thanks to this great forum and it's members.

We've got a complete team of ppl willing to help out (all musicians, hmmm. no good.. lazy bastards). I'm taking lead. yup, me's the boss haha.

I will provide some pictures to back up my plans.

What about neighbours? Any solid contact to a any other building? Then I guess you'd need to do something about the transmission between floor-levels.. if the sound transmits between floor you'd be sure it transmits to the rest of the building (and subsequently to your neighbours).

a

Nope, the building stands on it's own. First neighbour window/door is about 10m (33') away. So no direct contact. I own the whole building, no other ppl using it.

oh, that's great, well dunno if I can help you out with this, but I think as you put it, it will be difficult to separate the floors from eachother even with floated floors..

a

I thought about cutting the existing floor (seperate it in two) and do the same with the new floor. Both cuts within the double wall section. But I have to reenforce the floors by doing that, since I will build the wall on top.

Dunno yet. On the other hand, it's not a big issue for sound flanking through the floor 'cuz there's only a cantine/relax area to seperate on the 1st floor and a storage/recording room on the 2nd floor.

But I'm looking into options here.
If just adding the new wood floor (15mm MDF) ontop of a layer rockwool or alike will help, I might consider that. Again, it's no prio.

Cutting the floor??? Wow I wouldn't even dream of doing that, even if you do so, there's no way you can separate the floor by cutting it without still beeing connected to the rest of the structure (unless you do magic). Levetating is a hrd thing to do; So can you get hold of Stepisol in NL? would be something to consider.

a