Best way to finish a poorly begun project

[luke the obscure]

I really wish I had found this forum a long time ago... It would have made my life a lot easier!! Here's my question...

I'm in the middle of converting my garage into a nice little recording studio. We're about halfway done with construction of the live room, and I recently realized that we're doing everything wrong. Soundproofing is a major concern due to neighbors. So far the walls consist of (from exterior to interior): slats of redwood (it's an old garage), wood studs, fiberglass insulation (not rigid, the other stuff), sound board with all the seams caulked. Yes, I did finally discover the threads about how sound board is a rip-off.

Where do I go from here? I've got a shipment of drywall arriving next week. I've read the threads about how resilient channel probably isn't my wisest investment. Should I just plan on doing another layer of drywall? Should I just put up the drywall and play the drums and wait for the cops to arrive? Should I put down my hammer because I am obviously not smart enough to be swinging it around?

Thanks everybody....

(It should probably be noted that the budget for this project is tiny.)

[sharward]

Greetings and welcome, Luke. You have my condolences. I can only imagine the PANIC you must have felt when you came to the realization that coming to an immediate halt was your best course of action not to make a bad situation worse.

Consider yourself lucky -- others don't make the discovery until it's all built. It could be better, but it could be far, far worse.

Your case is unique and may require some specialized assistance. You're bound to get some great advice here, but it may take a while. Some advice is easy (e.g., "Stop constructing!" which you have already done), but other advice will probably require much more depth of information from you.

Posting pictures of your situation will help a great deal. Also, posting your drawings will be good, even though the design has flaws. If you don't have drawings, you will probably need to make some. Don't worry if they won't win ribbons -- as long as they show the necessary anatomic details, they should be fine. Also, brand names help -- some specialized products are good but not economical (in that the same or better results can be achieved with standard products in different quantities/techniques), whereas other products may be a complete waste of money and may make situations worse. What kind of "sound board" did you use? Where did you buy it?

It would also be helpful to know what the studio will be used for -- i.e., what kind of music will be played in it. Requirements of an acoustic guitar trio are much easier to meet than those of death metal and the like.

In addition, how close are your closest neighbors? And do you know what your municipality's noise ordinances are? These are critical factors in the equation.

Finally, you haven't posted your location, which is critical in providing useful advice. Read the "Before You Post" Announcement carefully, along with the almighty "Reference Area" Announcement.

And finally (yes, I know that's two "finalies"), pour yourself a cup of coffee and dive into this forum face-first. Get ready to make a ton of bookmarks for future reference.

I hope this helps. You've definitely got your work cut out for you. Perhaps you can find some humor in my "Stages of Soundproofing Enlightenment" Thread... If not now, then perhaps when you're finally finished with the thing.

Good luck...

--Keith
Unofficial forum greeter, master of the URL tag, and sometimes annoying gnat

[knightfly]

In addition to Keith's "Walmart Wannabe" approach (JK, Keith, you save me having to do that) you may want to postpone the Drywall delivery until you have a better idea of how much you'll actually need, and have decided whether you want success or headaches forever. It's not easy to achieve good sound isolation for drums/bass even when starting from scratch, especially on a tight budget; but it IS doable in a lot of cases.

So please, do what Keith suggested (all of it), hold the drywall delivery, and start analyzing EXACTLY how that old garage is built, layer by layer, so you can draw/explain it;

First thing is to REMOVE that soundboard, I dont' care WHICH kind it is; you will be needing to beef up that outer wall from the inside before anything else, and we need dimensions (all three) to see how well this space can be isolated. You will need to get so familiar with ALL its construction that you could draw a plan and build it from scratch yourself - any less involvement and you won't get enough isolation, guaranteed... Steve

[sharward]

In addition to Keith's "Walmart Wannabe" approach (JK, Keith, you save me having to do that) . . .

Hee hee! Actually, I drew the Wal-Mart parallel in another post a couple of weeks ago:

I'm one of the unofficial greeters here -- kind of like the guy at Wal-Mart, but no blue vest or uniform. In fact, I'm more like the guy you run into at the store who just won't shut up.

Always glad to help, Steve... (I figure it can only speed up water delivery my own fires!)

[luke the obscure]

Ohhh boy.... I'll post some pictures on my next post, but in the meantime, here's a really amazing looking diagram I worked all night on (sarcasm).

Yes, I know the height dimensions are missing. The height is hard to explain so I'll post it with pictures of the ceiling. Here's answers to the questions so far:

What kind of "sound board" did you use? Where did you buy it?

It's half "celotex" and half some kind of generic equivalent. We bought it second hand from a friend who attempted to soundproof a room without doing any reading whatsoever on the subject (needless to say it was COMPLETLY ineffective so he took it all down and gave it to me). We paid about 2.00 a sheet for the celotex and the generic was free. They purchased it from Home Despot for about 7.00 a sheet.

how close are your closest neighbors? And do you know what your municipality's noise ordinances are?

The closest neighbors are about 30 feet away. I don't know the letter of the law, but the cops who came out the first time we tried to have band practice explained that if somebody calls, you're to loud. We're also planning on doing some for-pay recordings in there, which we're not zoned for, so basically unhappy neighbors=we're screwed.

you haven't posted your location

Good old Fresno, California.

I read through all the posts you mentioned, and some you didn't, and now... my head hurts.

Some explanation about this diagram: the thick lines are walls that have been built, and the broken lines are walls that haven't been. The exact dimensions of the window and iso booth haven't been figured out yet.

I dug around and found some pictures that were taken during construction. Maybe this will give you and idea of the structure.

Finally, how does one "beef up the walls from the inside"? Is this vital? Is there anyway around it? The other people involved in this project are going to absolutely kill me if I say "OK guys, tear it all down"!!!

[luke the obscure]

Almost forgot to answer a question... We'll mostly be tracking indie rock type stuff. So not as loud as say... a death metal band... but still- drums guitar and bass, etc.

Here's some more pictures. The first picture shows the entrance to the "live room". That's a steel door with a nice tight seal and expanding foam insulation in the gaps between the door frame and the wall frame. The electrical box there will turn on both the interior lights and the exterior light so we don't cut into the interior walls.

The next picture is of the whole structure, just so you get an idea of where we're working. That's my dog in the front being a model.

The next pic is inside the live room. This is where we currently are with construstion. this gives you an idea of how the ceiling is. We had to put in some collar ties to support the roof so it's a funky shape.

The next one is taken from the front of the garage. We're going to have to re-frame since we decided to move that door and put a window in. The control room will eventually be built on the left.

The diagram shows the dimensions of the back wall, so you can get an idea of the roof height.

[luke the obscure]

So the pics are all out of order and half missing... Here's the rest of them. Let me know if the size/res of these are kosher.

[sharward]

the cops who came out the first time we tried to have band practice explained that if somebody calls, you're to loud.

<Deep Breaths>
So, let me see if I got this straight. If you practice with no drum set, no amplifiers, and a maraca, and somebody calls, you're too loud?

Bullsh--.

Now, in all (un)fairness, you probably were too loud... But that's the most pathetic explanation (from the cops) that I have ever heard.

A common noise ordinance model is based on two measurements: one that is objective and one that is subjective. The objective measurement is typically a db(A) limit, possibly with certain hours of the day and durations per hour being more strict. The subjective measurement is injected with all kinds of "soft" language, such as "reasonable and necessary activities" and "persons of normal and reasonable sensitivity." (Your mileage will vary. Don't assume anything!) Both are pretty strict standards, and one is relatively easy to measure in terms of "pass" or "fail" with a simple decibel meter. The other obviously relies on human judgement.

Since your law enforcement doesn't have the time/desire/capacity/ability/etc. to actually understand and be able to communicate the laws they're supposed to be enforcing, it's up to you to research the law so that you will understand your (minimal) rights.

We're also planning on doing some for-pay recordings in there, which we're not zoned for, so basically unhappy neighbors=we're screwed.

Actually, you're screwed no matter what, unless you get a variance of some kind and are willing to go to great lengths and expense to legitimize things.

I know this is a buzzkill, and I'm sorry about that... But you probably can't afford to operate on a mindset of "it's OK until the neighbors complain." If it's not legal to open a business on your property, then it's not legal regardless of whether or not someone complains. In my opinion, the risks are too great: steep municipal fines, litigation (meaning your neighbors can sue you for damages), and of course, lost investment in the construction itself.

Perhaps your safest bet is to build this studio on the up-and-up as a hobby and not a business (which, in theory avoids your having to meet strict zoning and commercial building code regulations).

The electrical box there will turn on both the interior lights and the exterior light so we don't cut into the interior walls.

I hate to break this to you, but in a two-leaf system, a hole in the outer leaf is probably just as bad as a hole in the inner leaf. Therefore, you just moved the problem; you didn't eliminate it. (Plus, you probably created a code violation in the process.)

You can accomplish great things with putty packs.

. . . how does one "beef up the walls from the inside"? Is this vital?

Check out Steve's first reply to my project, and then review my drawings very carefully (especially "E" on this post).

We bought it second hand from a friend who attempted to soundproof a room without doing any reading whatsoever on the subject (needless to say it was COMPLETLY ineffective so he took it all down and gave it to me).

Luke, I thought long and hard about saying this, so please don't hit me. But, in order to make an important point, I need to pick on you for this:
If your friend had no success with the product, what made you think you would succeed with it?

You essentially have a rigid and severely compromised two-leaf system that will probably give you a few extra dB of isolation. If you care as much about isolation as you say you do, I personally don't see how you have any way to proceed without deconstructing what you have done and starting over, with careful attention to the details. And if you're going to do that, then why not suffer a little more pain and get your permit? If nothing else, the powers-that-be force you to think about what you're going to do before doing it.

You've got some difficult decisions ahead, my friend, but we're all here to help (and/or gasp in sympathy!). Hang in there.

[luke the obscure]

Legal issues aside (this is mostly a hobby/communal recording space anyway).

Ok... so if I'm getting this right the only way to achieve any real kind of soundproofing is by constructing mass-air-mass walls? What is we revise the plan as shown in the following diagram, adding three more walls on a floated floor? The exterior walls become a three leaf system (with one leaf albeit severely compromised). Since that wall at the bottom of the diagram is new construction, we can modify that or build another wall behind, or whatever would be ideal.

Also, the hole for the electrical box was already there, it controlled an outside light and had a socket in it, so we didn't add any holes.

Also, if we did those three walls on a floated floor, could we get away with not doing the 2x4's 16" OC? Could we space them 4' apart on order to just support the drywall?

I wanted to avoid doing new interior walls since the space is already so small, but if it means an extra 20 dB of TL it would be worth it.

Your lucky I'm not in a hitting mood. My friend simply screwed sound board into 2X4's - no caulking, no drywall, and NOTHING on the ceiling! I read that the soundboard was supposed to used in conjunction with drywall with the idea that different materials block out different frequencies, and that the "SoundStop" stuff was engineered to be effective at the frequencys that drywall was not.

Anyway, if I didn't do the floated floor thing, what would you recommend? Tearing off the soundboard, taking out the insulation and then what?

(In between posts I am reading old threads, especially the ones you recommend, so hopefully I will sound more and more educated as this discussion goes on. Ideally by the end of it I will yell at some newcomer for being so foolish and not being as wise as me.)

[knightfly]

One other thing, Luke - 40 posts from now, you're STILL going to be "obscure" - hopefully you can imagine what I, the ONLY moderator in this partiicular forum, go through trying to keep track of all the members' situations and specific details here - so, when we ask that you list a location, (part of the very TOP thread in this forum) what you need to do is click on "profile" at the top of the page; edit your PROFILE so your general location shows up on each and every post. That way I won't recommend a particular material that's only available in Rangoon, or (hopefully) one that's twice as expensive in your area as something else that would work as well.

I know you're having spasm attacks over all this new-found "oopsie" stuff (been there), but the more you learn about how things REALLY work the more you'll understand the need for doing things that (right now) seem like some sort of punishment - done right, your project will completely erase your neighbors' unreasonable attitude toward getting to listen to your music whether they want to or not , as well as cause you to forget what your local "technophobic", non-sound meter carrying cops look like up close.

So, after you edit your profile, get comfy, read more, take Ibuprofen, ask more questions, and let's see what it's gonna take to get you (quietly) Loud and Proud... Steve

[knightfly]

Luke, thanks for changing your profile; somehow your post beat mine, probably got entered just as I started to type my last one. I've gotta go do a couple of things, but I'll re-read your last and think about it, get back to you later... Steve

[sharward]

. . . done right, your project will completely erase your neighbors' unreasonable attitude toward getting to listen to your music whether they want to or not , as well as cause you to forget what your local "technophobic", non-sound meter carrying cops look like up close.

Steve, somehow you always seem to find the very best words.

[sharward]

Ideally by the end of it I will yell at some newcomer for being so foolish and not being as wise as me.)

Luke, perhaps I should level with you now. We're not really a normal kind of family here -- we're more like a gang, and the initiation is you jumping yourself in -- and since you seem to be doing that very effectively now, I think you're probably in for life!

Which means, of course, that if you try to leave now, then all of us are going to converge on your place from every direction and, uh, I don't know -- point decibel meters in your general direction or something.

Why do you think we needed a location, eh? We need to know where to send the enforcers!

Hang in there, brother!

[luke the obscure]

I still don't quite know what the best way to proceed is here... If I rip all the sound board down and tear out the insulation... What do I do next? I'm assuming you're recommending I cut sheetrock and place it in between the studs, then insulate over that, then RC then sheetrock over that?

[knightfly]

Yes, at a MINIMUM: if you want SERIOUS isolation, then instead of RC and wallboard you would build separate frames inside the existing ones, and put your sheet rock layers on ONE side of those; this would increase the air gap (insulation added) and decrease coupling between wall leaves even further than the RC would... Steve

PS - if your outer siding isn't smooth where it shows between studs, you would need to first add drywall mud with a LARGE drywall knife before placing the first layer of gypsum "insert" material; you don't want ANY air gaps between layers of either leaf in the wall system.