Neoprene for U Shaped Seal around Laminated Glass ???

[aschatzb]

Hello, I'm getting ready to install a few pieces of glass in the studio. I'll be using 60 Duro EPDM rubber around the sides, Top, and Bottom of the glass. To get a U shaped seal around the sides of the glass I was thinking about using Neoprene.

Is Neoprene ok to use to create this seal? Or would I be better off with something else?

[Aaronw]

Can you shrink your image. Can't see it one page w/ a 19" monitor!

Thanks.

[aschatzb]

Sorry about that... Hope this helps:)

[knightfly]

Does this help any? Generally, you need high duro UNDER the glass, not so much for the rest of the pieces -

http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=3330

EPDM is more expensive but lasts about 25 years compared to 10 for neoprene - similar characteristics other than that... Steve

[aschatzb]

Hello Steve, I found that link the other day when I was searching around on the site for more information on this subject. My confusion is based (at least in the world of studio construction, I've got other issues...) primarily around the materials used for the window installation. I need to make a decision very very soon and purchase the correct materials to get these windows installed.

As far as creating the u-seal around the window, how will the neoprene work in place of the closed cell foam?

And if closed cell foam is better, can you suggest a specific brand and model number?

Also, how would the closed cell foam be dressed to look good around the window, what color is it?

As far as casing in between 2 windows, so there will be no flanking, can you suggest something similar to celotex that I can wrap in fabric that might be more readily available?

thank you:) andrew

[knightfly]

As far as creating the u-seal around the window, how will the neoprene work in place of the closed cell foam?

solid neoprene is harder than a foam product, and should be used around the perimeter of the glass, especially UNDER the glass. A foam product won't support the glass enough and it will settle too much in the frame. The closed cell foam would be for the SIDES of the seal, where the cleats will compress it enough to give a good seal.

And if closed cell foam is better, can you suggest a specific brand and model number?

http://www.customaudiodesigns.co.uk/seals/hdseal.htm

Also

this


Also, how would the closed cell foam be dressed to look good around the window, what color is it?

Typically either charcoal or black - either color cloth can be used as a screen, so should match closely.

As far as casing in between 2 windows, so there will be no flanking, can you suggest something similar to celotex that I can wrap in fabric that might be more readily available?

Celotex, Homasote, Soundboard, "Acoustic tiles", all are similar products and should be available locally... Steve

[aschatzb]

hey Steve, thanks a bunch for taking the time to help me with the materials for the window install.

You said

closed cell foam would be for the SIDES of the seal, where the cleats will compress it enough to give a good seal

The links you pointed me to were for EPDM and Neoprene. I'm a bit confused... Were you meaning to point me in the direction of closed cell foam or Neoprene?

I'm trying to figure out where I can get my hands on some closed cell foam and what brand is recommended???

thanks again, andrew

[knightfly]

EPDM and Neoprene are both available in a more solid, higher density version AND in a closed cell foam; the EPDM version of closed cell foam would last longer. The JC Whitney link IS Closed Cell, EPDM, Foam, and extruded into a "D" shaped gasket material with one side peel and stick.

BTW, it's not clear on their site but that is a 10 foot long piece for $20.

All you're looking for in a SIDE gasket, is an airtight seal; for the other rubber around the glass (weight supporting) you need a higher duro rubber, like 60 duro or above EPDM, NOT FOAM.... Steve

[aschatzb]

Yo Steve, I've just spent the last week in GLASS HELL. I won't bore you with the details, but so far we've got 1 out of three pieces installed.

Anyway, the huge piece of glass has been the worst to deal with. It was to be placed on the 1/4" EPDM (60 duro) right on the concrete. The concrete has settled quite a bit not allowing for a good seal between the EPDM and the glass in certain areas on the floor (the EPDM can slide out easily).

I've been thinking about using a very soft foam or rubber under the epdm that would make up the difference. I was thinking of using it under the entire lenght of the glass. Where the extra thickness was not neccesary, it would compress to nothing, but where it was needed, would lift the epdm up enough to get a good seal.

Any ideas or suggestions for materials? I don't want to sacrifice the gasket system around the window with krappy materials. I know neoprene won't last as long as EPDM, but perhaps a really soft neoprene or sponger rubber under the epdm would be ok????

I hope you're doing well... THanks:)

later,

andrew

[aschatzb]

Hello, another issue I've encountered is that the opening for one of the pieces of glass that I received was a 1/4" TO SMALL horizontally.

I was planning on using 1/4" 60 Duro EPDM on the sides of the glass. Because of the size issue I was thinking of using 1/8" 60 duro on the sides to make up for the glass being too large. I'm still using 1/4" EPDM under the glass and on top. Will I still have an effective gasket and seal system with 1/8"? Or should I shoot myself in the head and start over?

thanks:)

[knightfly]

Andrew, I was hoping to get your q's answered tonight but I've got a several hour video shoot to prepare for; I have several points to bring out and I'll have some time tomorrow afternoon (GMT - , thanks for your patience... Steve

[aschatzb]

Hey Steve, Hope your video shoot went well... All kinds of excitement here on the right coast.

We're going to try to get the glass installed this Friday (3rd time is a charm???). We've built a template out of plywood, so hopefully if we can get that thing to fit properly, the glass will go right in (7ft x 7ft 1/2" laminated glass = 350lbs)

Anyway, I've got to gather my materials to deal with the EPDM issue on the concrete floor... If you have a chance to clue me into your ideas for this b4 then, it would be great!

take care,

andrew

[knightfly]

My main concern on this (besides the HUMONGOUS size of that glass) is having concrete in (almost) direct contact with the glass; without a TOTAL Thermal break (and possibly even WITH) you're asking for MOLD problems inside the window assembly - check out this thread for what I'm talking about.

As to sealing, 1/8" is as good as 1/4" if there's a hermetic seal. Where you need the most support is (obviously) at the bottom; not quite so obviously, if the glass is TILTED then it's better to use the higher duro material on the side with the most weight, and use softer stuff on the opposite side (of each glass) to ensure a tight seal.

Glass theoretically never stops "flowing", so in time (lots of it) the panes would (theoretically) "settle in" to whatever support they're in; however, you don't have that long so using softer strips to "fill in" should work fine.

If you don't have time to wait for something like the weatherstrip I linked to at JC Whitney, then any local source of EPDM FOAM, CLOSED CELL should work for your softer parts; to ensure a good seal, that's what should be used on at least one side of each glass as I mentioned above.

You also need to find a source of silica gel and incorporate that into the space between glasses, hidden under dark colored cloth is fine; and, I would make sure the outer cleats holding the glass can be removed just in case you encounter something like Ruzo did in the above link.

Handle glass carefully, clean and dry thoroughly before install, and use lots of help with cloth gloves to avoid fingerprints you can't reach to clean... Steve

[aschatzb]

Hey Steve, thanks again!!!

So, imagine the glass sitting on several strips of EPDM 1/4" EPDM rubber, placed directly on the concrete. The concrete has settled. THere is a dip in the concrete in the middle of the bottom of the glass. Not a huge dip, just enough that the EPDM is easy to slide out from this section of the glass, so there is not a tight seal...

Are you suggesting using a closed cell foam under the epdm where the concrete dips? This would lift the epdm to get a tight seal... Also should I use it under the entirety of the EPDM on the concrete?

thank you:)

andrew

[knightfly]

Andrew, you have the right idea on evening out the pressure - just remember that your actual SEAL will be the SIDE pieces, NOT the edges of the glass. For that reason, the SIDE seals for each piece of glass need to be pretty resilient AND closed cell; this isn't accomplished by using 60 or even 40 duro solid EPDM for your side seals, but a softer, FOAM type (still EPDM)

However, you DO need the harder rubber around the edges of the glass to control its position without having hard contact with structure. Using the softer stuff in low spots will help keep the harder EPDM in place, which is a good thing.

BTW, just in case you've not seen it, here's more about mounting glass -

http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=23433

Note the way I've shown the hard and soft parts of the window seals, they're a bit different than your first drawing.

Also, I'm not clear on whether your two glasses will be in separate concrete openings, or?? Steve