John Sayers' Recording Studio Design Forum Archive

I am moving and building a new house. I am a complete newb to this PRO studio design. I have done all my recordings in closets lol. The common design for a room on the house is to build what’s called a bonus room above the garage. It would be the size of the 2 car or 2 ½ car garage. I was wondering if this is ok for a studio. I know that here in the NY area they have studios that the pros use in skyscrapers. Ill start with that as my first of probably a thousand questions… : ) Thank you so much this forum looks great.

Hey, Johnny - welcome to the forum. I'll plant some seeds to get you started -

First, having a studio above ANYTHING is less than ideal from an equipment transport point of view, unless you have an elevator or a handful of young, strong roadies - however, it can be done if you plan ahead for the worst of the pitfalls. As far as sound proofing is concerned, it's MUCH better that you are building from scratch rather than try to compensate for lack of planning. There are different ways of doing things if you KNOW you're going to want sound proof areas, and some of those methods aren't available AFTER the building is up, without MAJOR re-modeling.

Stairways are one example - I have a link to some info on the US Gypsum site that covers the proper way to build stairwells for sound performance, when I find it I'll post here. Also, stairs can be a real bitch to get gear up so you need to consider the path you and the gear will have to make. This means gentler pitch to stairs, wider stairways, no 90 degree landings with rails unless you make the rails removable, making a proper sound lock out of the stairwell, etc.

Outer siding/sheathing is another area to plan ahead on - you'll want extra mass under the outer siding, so you don't have to work so hard on the inner layers to get good results. Again, much easier to do BEFORE the place is built -

If you're building on a separate lot and using a contractor, you might consider this method - you can get about 50 dB of isolation before you add anything to the interior, the heating cost is lower than 2x6 stud construction, the cost is close to the same, it's class 4 earthquake rated, etc...

http://www.polysteel.com

People are using this in home construction too, with the same quiet and heat efficient results. Just something to consider...

Here is an old standby, and a fount of information to absorb (pun intended)

http://www.saecollege.de/reference_material/index.html

Click on EVERYTHING there, it's a small university unto itself. Again, welcome - and PLEASE don't make any decisions on the "bonus" room without consulting John or myself - I HATE giving people bad news AFTER they've already made the wrong choice.

One example - you can use EXACTLY the same amount of materials in a wall, and, depending on WHERE and HOW you place them, you can get a difference of over 20 dB in performance.

Again, welcome - read a lot, then ask away... Steve

Great!!!! Im reading it now. I have'nt started any plans yet Im still looking at them so I have months yet thank God. I want to plan correctly. Thank You for all your help! Im so glad I found this forum.

Glad to help - you didn't mention whether you're moving FROM Florida, or TO Florida. If it's TO, the Polysteel makes even more sense. I think I saw somewhere on their site something about an option for making even the foam part of their walls bug and mildew proof... :=)

I am moving to Florida, lol sorry. I still am not clear if It's is a bad design to build a studio on a second level instead of on the earth because of subsonic frequencys? Also I am concerned with the garage door opener.

I still am not clear if It's is a bad design to build a studio on a second level instead of on the earth because of subsonic frequencys?

Apart from the stairway thing that Steve mentioned there are no other disadvantages I can think of in fact there are probably some extra advantages. You can allow all that sub bass you were worried about dissipate into the downstairs garage

Make sure you allow for a nice open timber deck off the upstairs so you can lay around drinking beer on those balmy summer nights

cheers
john

Also I'm not getting where you use the pollysteel. Does it replace the wood beams? The plywood?

I agree about the big second floor deck to lounge on...but I think you should combine a deck with an outside staircase and avoid the hassle of the internal stairs....unless of course you need to be able to offload in the rain...

Also I'm not getting where you use the pollysteel. Does it replace the wood beams? The plywood?

What Steve was suggesting is that you build using steel framing (studs) instead of timber.

unless of course you need to be able to offload in the rain...

You could cover the deck and stairway and you are right - it would eliminate the internal stairway. Also under the deck would be a dry area so you could leave gear there to be picked up and it would be out of the rain or just extra undercover parking.

cheers
john.

I wouldnt do the outside stairs thing for security reasons. The way Im thinking is you go through the garage, through a door into a hallway where the washer and dryer are. From there you can either go through a door to the house or through a door up to the studio. Ill have to make sure the doorway is big enough for a DDR AMR? or do I need a crane... ?

OK, did ANYONE actually check out the link to the Polysteel site? If not, please check it out, paying particular attention to Panel Deck, and the construction pictures.

This stuff REPLACES your walls, upper floor, and even the roof if you want it to. The company manufactures modular steel and foam forms, used for pouring concrete walls, floors and ceilings. The finished wall consists of fluted concrete walls, encased on both sides with closed cell foam - there are STEEL webs encased in the foam form sections on regular intervals, for the purpose of attaching siding, stucco wires, cabinets, etc -

The Panel Deck part is for floors, ceilings, and roof. It consists of foam cores with built-in ways for wiring, HVAC, etc - when you pour concrete over the foam PanelDeck sections, you end up with built-in steel-reinforced I-beams and a 2 to 4" concrete floor, insulated with Polyfoam. Even their lighter Panel Deck will support a CAR when centers don't exceed 14 feet. The heavier (deeper ribs) versions are even stronger. They can be poured on a slope and used for roofs as well.

What I was referring to was building the ENTIRE house out of foam encased concrete. Even the 6" thick walls have an STC of 48 with only one layer of 1/2" sheet rock.

"What Steve was suggesting is that you build using steel framing (studs) instead of timber. " - Only for interior walls, John, since the outside would be concrete and foam. And you bet - in Florida, I wouldn't use ANYTHING that one of the 12,658,499 known species of bugs could make a meal out of, take a crap in, lay an egg in, rip apart to make a nest out of, etc...

If you are planning on paying a contractor to build the house, the cost of polysteel CONCRETE construction is only slightly higher than 2x6 wood stud construction, with the benefits I listed earlier.

If I sound like a salesman, it's only because I'm already sold on this stuff and plan to use it in my 2000 sf facility which I hope to start construction on in 1-2 years... Steve

Thanks dude... Im getting sold on it too. But there web site sucks.. I took about 20 minuites yesterday to navagate through it and got like no where. There pictures suck to be frank. There is no What is polly steel info.ect... anyway. About how much more is it to build out of pollysteel. This is a concern as I still have to purchace a board monitors and new converters yet. Im thinking about just building the garage and bonus room stronger too not the whole house. It just gets way out of hand when contractors have to do something extra..

I just got off their site and you're right - if you didn't already know what this stuff was about, you probably still wouldn't know afterward...

My first exposure to this stuff was at a home show on the West Coast, so I've seen the forms and talked to an engineer firsthand. The first thing that piqued my interest was that the guy in the booth, when I asked what the STC was, didn't try to hide - he just TOLD me. That's always a good sign. He also mentioned that they had been involved in a few studios in the northwest area - I've not yet found time to pursue that, I need to re-connect and arrange a tour if possible.

As to cost, for a contractor-built structure the Polysteel runs 2-4% higher than 2x6 stud construction. The benefits for sound proofing far outweigh that difference, not to mention the strength and security. (Which would YOU rather try to break into; wood, or steel-reinforced concrete? Let's see now, chainsaw or recip saw, vs. JACK-HAMMER...)

Basically, in simple terms, what this construction is: You put together a bunch of hollow Lego Blocks, with steel bars running vertically in each hole, and all the blocks are sitting on a conventional concrete footing or slab - then you fill all the holes with concrete (this requires a concrete pump, which is a big boom with a hose that spews concrete out, and can reach wherever you need it) - you can erect and fill this wall at a maximum of about 4 feet per hour, you do NOT rod the concrete (this will break out the form) - you can erect walls up to 50 feet tall (using the 10" thick forms, less for 6 or 8" - I'm looking at the 8" for 16 foot high walls)

Then, for ceilings or roofs you use their Panel Deck forms, which interlock and provide a form that, when rebar is added in the valleys, yeilds a ribbed concrete, foam insulated slab with airways and conduits built into the foam.

They had some brochures with a much better explanation than their website manages to give - you could probably call their toll-free # and request those brochures. One is called Build it Better with Poly Steel, and the other is called Poly Steel Panel Deck.

Their # is 1-800-977-3676, they are located in Albuquerque, New Mexico at 5150-F Edith NE, Albuquerque, NM 87107.

I was originally going to do a 36 x 48 shell using 2x6 stud construction - now, I'm looking at a 40 x 50 using the Polysteel method - I'll leave a 4" gap inside, then use 6" steel studs (probably with rockwool, sprayed cellulose sounds too messy), Resilient channel, and two layers of 5/8" firecode sheet rock. The 36x48 would have left me with inside dim's of 34.5 x 46.5 (1604 sf), where the 40 x 50 will end up at 36.66 x 46.66 (1710 sf), so I gain enough usable floor space for a small office - not to mention about 12 dB better sound reduction.

Not sure what I'm going to do overhead yet.

There are several other mfg's of this type of form, several of which use plastic for the webbing between inside and outside - I prefer the galvanized steel webs, it just seems stronger - plus, it looks like easier concrete filling with less impedance.

Hope that gave you some more insight... Steve

not to mention the strength and security. (Which would YOU rather try to break into; wood, or steel-reinforced concrete? Let's see now, chainsaw or recip saw, vs. JACK-HAMMER...)

>lol

Not sure what I'm going to do overhead yet.

>yes I was thinking about that too. You have a tank with a canvas roof.. hehe

I’m just concerned that if I approach a contractor with this they may try to take advantage (speaking nicely) of the opportunity. Is there something easier like adding double wood beams that has also worked?

Yeah, there are other approaches - that's what can get so confusing when building for sound.

But as far as the roof is concerned, I'm still looking at the Panel Deck approach for the OUTSIDE, I'm just not sure what I'm going to do for the INNER leaf of the shell. Probably just attach 6" metal studs direct to the Panel Deck inside, fill with insulation, hang RC on the studs, couple layers of 5/8 drywall.

I don't think you would have a problem finding a contractor that's done this type of construction - even here in Oregon, I've already talked to two contractors that have done this, and I've only talked to two contractors :=) - This weekend there's another Home Show, and there will be at least one mfr of ICF (Insulated Concrete Form) showing. Gonna see what they have that Polysteel doesn't, or "Versey-Vice-a" -

Considering hurricanes, bugs, mold, fire and slimeballs, for construction in Florida I'd be even MORE convinced this method was the way to go. If you have any doubts, you should call that # I posted and ask them about finding contractors in the area you're going - you can NEVER have too much information, it sometimes just SEEMS that way... Steve