Hi!
I may be nuts...but I'm going nuts.
I want to isolate a small space as much as possible. I'm a drummer/bass player and I've got neighbors close by. I've also got a lovely wife and 3 young children (plus one more on the way) that don't need to hear the elevated dB's. I also love to compose and multitrack. I'm usually solo for all these activities, so fortunately the need for a separate recording and control rooms is not vital. This is good because the space is only 6'6" wide. The ceiling is around 95". The depth of the room is variable at this point as a wall needs to be built to partition this space. Could be 12'-14'?
I know...its tight...but I'm a small guy and my kit is compactand easily fits in a 6' wide space so that can go at one end...maybe monitors/recording gear at the other?
I've selected this space because it is at the far corner of the garage and therefore separated from the living space. It is also on concrete slab. Basically I've got a 24' x 30' garage and the back 6'6" is a shop. I want to cut the shop in half or so and use it for the iso room. I want to be able to play loud and not worry about disturbing everybody.
Arg. Here we go...The existing walls are all 2" x4" uninsulated with 1/2" sheetrock. The only material presently separating the space from the attic is 1/2" sheetrock. How can I possibly accomplish my goal without eating up half the room in materials?? To make matters worse, there is a 5' x 3' window in the space to the exterior.
On the plus side is the distance of the space from the living space of the home, there is that slab floor (why do I see so many designs floating on a slab floor?), electrical is close at hand for both power and lighting, there is no plumbing anywhere near the space, and absolutely no HVAC ducting to mess with/carry sound (I plan on using either a forced air electric Cadet heater, or simply plug in an electric oil convection heater for heat, and this part of the house stays nice an cool during the Summer due to a great huge oak tree outside that offers great shade)
I'm on a pretty tight budget, but it has been over 15 years since I have lived in a place and had my kit setup in my home ready to play at any time in a way that won't bother others. Life has been so busy, but I can't stand it anymore and my wife is very supportive of me creating a sound room. I've got good mics, a set of Alesis Monitor 1 mkII actives, and will be purchasing a Tascam FW-1884. I just need an ISOLATED space. Any advice or help will be so so much appreciated.
Thanks!
BIG challenge for a newbie...need to isolate a small space
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torridheatstudios
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- Location: West Coast, USA
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knightfly
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torridheatstudios
- Posts: 5
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Knightfly,
Sorry to be so obscure.
I updated my profile. I'm on the West Coast, United States.
Budget....hmm. That's tough. Its not an actual stack of bills and that's what we have and that's it, its more a concern to not sell the farm on a studio studio the size of a closet. I suppose $1500 for materials might be a starting point?? I'll be providing the labor. If I can't get even close for that amount, I'm open to stretching. Does that help?
I really appreciate it.
Sorry to be so obscure.
I updated my profile. I'm on the West Coast, United States.
Budget....hmm. That's tough. Its not an actual stack of bills and that's what we have and that's it, its more a concern to not sell the farm on a studio studio the size of a closet. I suppose $1500 for materials might be a starting point?? I'll be providing the labor. If I can't get even close for that amount, I'm open to stretching. Does that help?
I really appreciate it.
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knightfly
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- Joined: Sun Mar 16, 2003 11:11 am
- Location: West Coast, USA
OK, shouldn't be too much of a stretch to accomplish this - now the hard part - I need you to get access to your attic and describe what you see there - which way does the roof ridge run relative to your studio space, how far apart are framing members, is this a truss roof, what size are each of the parts, etc -
example - wood trusses running the long way of the 6.5 x 24 space, 24" on center, rafters 2x6, chords (the angled pieces) 2x4, ceiling joists 2x4, etc. (If you've not done construction before, a 2x4 is really 1-1/2" x 3-1/2", a 2x6 is really 1-1/2" x 5-1/2" )
Need to know your outside wall construction too - if possible, list from outside surface each layer to the inner wallboard -
Also, are you willing/able to carefully cut your existing wallboard along each joist and remove it, to be used later to strengthen your outer wall panels?
Another thing - are you wanting to be able to play drums at 2 am without anyone hearing them, or just during normal hours (before 10 pm) and quiet enough outside not to be above background noise at your neighbors? (be reasonable here, this can be an expensive and time-consuming choice)
Next, the window - need a description including depth of window casing, where the glass is in relation to outside wall surface, type of window, single or double pane, whether you want to be able to see out later or opaque it...
Floating floors are done to keep isolation at maximum - however, to do them right so they don't actually make the problem worse, gets expensive; it involves floating a concrete slab on isolator pads, costs you several inches of headroom, and for this application would be a total waste of money and effort because you don't have the headroom for that AND a serious ceiling.
Looks like materials, without floating a floor, would run around $1000 - this includes the cost of a screw gun, which you might be able to rent and save a bit - I'd tend to buy a good brand like Makita or Milwaukee, then sell it if you don't need it. That way, it's there til you're done, and you can decide afterwards whether you want to keep or sell it.
Let's get started - it would help if you can post either pix or a drawing, preferably both - if you can get a pic of the attic showing framing, that would be great. The ceiling is going to be your biggest challenge, since soundproofing follows the weakest link theory without exception... Steve
example - wood trusses running the long way of the 6.5 x 24 space, 24" on center, rafters 2x6, chords (the angled pieces) 2x4, ceiling joists 2x4, etc. (If you've not done construction before, a 2x4 is really 1-1/2" x 3-1/2", a 2x6 is really 1-1/2" x 5-1/2" )
Need to know your outside wall construction too - if possible, list from outside surface each layer to the inner wallboard -
Also, are you willing/able to carefully cut your existing wallboard along each joist and remove it, to be used later to strengthen your outer wall panels?
Another thing - are you wanting to be able to play drums at 2 am without anyone hearing them, or just during normal hours (before 10 pm) and quiet enough outside not to be above background noise at your neighbors? (be reasonable here, this can be an expensive and time-consuming choice)
Next, the window - need a description including depth of window casing, where the glass is in relation to outside wall surface, type of window, single or double pane, whether you want to be able to see out later or opaque it...
Floating floors are done to keep isolation at maximum - however, to do them right so they don't actually make the problem worse, gets expensive; it involves floating a concrete slab on isolator pads, costs you several inches of headroom, and for this application would be a total waste of money and effort because you don't have the headroom for that AND a serious ceiling.
Looks like materials, without floating a floor, would run around $1000 - this includes the cost of a screw gun, which you might be able to rent and save a bit - I'd tend to buy a good brand like Makita or Milwaukee, then sell it if you don't need it. That way, it's there til you're done, and you can decide afterwards whether you want to keep or sell it.
Let's get started - it would help if you can post either pix or a drawing, preferably both - if you can get a pic of the attic showing framing, that would be great. The ceiling is going to be your biggest challenge, since soundproofing follows the weakest link theory without exception... Steve
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torridheatstudios
- Posts: 5
- Joined: Wed Sep 22, 2004 8:57 am
- Location: West Coast, USA
Oh my!
Steve,
Keep watching. I will get back to you on all your questions. You rock!
I'm familiar with all the terminology you used, and I can answer most of them off the top of my head, but I want to double check on a couple points and answer all at once. I'll be back to you in the next 24 hours.
BTW, I don't think I'm expecting to be able to blast double-bass riffs at 0200 and not have it be heard. The main thing would be to be able to play after bedtime for the kids (8-9pm) and not have it wake them, but I've used a circular saw in the middle of the night without any problem in the same space sans any isolation. I think you are getting a feeling of where I'm going. There is a threshhold that crosses into a territory that is beyond my league (i.e. floating the floor), and/or impractical. Maximum isolation within that league would be great. I would LOVE to be able to play at full volume and not worry about bugging the neighbors, but I am prepared to accept the realities and practicalities.
Thanks again. Be back with you soon!
Cory
Keep watching. I will get back to you on all your questions. You rock!
I'm familiar with all the terminology you used, and I can answer most of them off the top of my head, but I want to double check on a couple points and answer all at once. I'll be back to you in the next 24 hours.
BTW, I don't think I'm expecting to be able to blast double-bass riffs at 0200 and not have it be heard. The main thing would be to be able to play after bedtime for the kids (8-9pm) and not have it wake them, but I've used a circular saw in the middle of the night without any problem in the same space sans any isolation. I think you are getting a feeling of where I'm going. There is a threshhold that crosses into a territory that is beyond my league (i.e. floating the floor), and/or impractical. Maximum isolation within that league would be great. I would LOVE to be able to play at full volume and not worry about bugging the neighbors, but I am prepared to accept the realities and practicalities.
Thanks again. Be back with you soon!
Cory
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torridheatstudios
- Posts: 5
- Joined: Wed Sep 22, 2004 8:57 am
- Location: West Coast, USA
Here's all the info...
Hey knightfly, this is what I've come up with in response to your questions. BTW, you didn't ask, but just in case you need to know later the house was built in 1971.
Outside wall construction: 13" or 14" wide by 1/4" thick plywood lap siding (there used to be a plywood mill in town...lots of houses here with plywood siding...what a shocker), 2" x 4" framing 16" on center and then 1/2" sheetrock.
Other points/questions:
1. There is a soffit that overhangs the East wall by 2'.
2. I have a good power drill for which I have phillips bits. Worthy alternative to the screw gun?
3. Sorry about not having a drawing for you. I don't have a good application for that on my computer. What do you use?
4. The ceiling is 98", not 95".
Now for the pictures.
The first picture is of the space in consideration. What a mess! The picture frame represents approximately where the North wall would be added. I was facing South when taking the picture. You can see the window on the East wall. A door swinging into the garage (which is to the West) would be added about were that huge white tool cabinet now hangs on the West wall. The East and South walls are exterior walls on 2" x 6" sill plates that sit on top of foundation walls that rise about 4" above the slab floor.
The second picture is of (surprise) the attic. This picture was taken just about directly above the position in the previous picture. Hence I was facing South here as well.
The last picture shows detail of the base of the East and South walls. The top of the foundation wall will need to be a work-around. With the 2" x 6" sill plate the foundation wall generates an approximate 2.5" wide by 5.5" tall obtrusion at the base of those walls. The West wall sits on a small concrete footing, but it is the same width as the 2" x 4" sill plate used on that wall.
Sorry for the long post, and a sincere thank you for your time and help.
Cory
The roof structure is constructed using wood trusses (non-engineered type) that run perpendicular to the longitude of the space being considered (hence the roof ridge runs parallel). They are 2' on center, and feature 2" x 4" framing for all parts (rafters, chords and joists).OK, shouldn't be too much of a stretch to accomplish this - now the hard part - I need you to get access to your attic and describe what you see there - which way does the roof ridge run relative to your studio space, how far apart are framing members, is this a truss roof, what size are each of the parts, etc -
Need to know your outside wall construction too - if possible, list from outside surface each layer to the inner wallboard -
Outside wall construction: 13" or 14" wide by 1/4" thick plywood lap siding (there used to be a plywood mill in town...lots of houses here with plywood siding...what a shocker), 2" x 4" framing 16" on center and then 1/2" sheetrock.
So you are wondering if I would want to salvage the ceiling sheetrock to add to the upright walls? I don't have a problem with that, but why wouldn't I want to keep what's on the ceiling on the ceiling? I'll wait to see where you are going with this one...Also, are you willing/able to carefully cut your existing wallboard along each joist and remove it, to be used later to strengthen your outer wall panels?
Like I said in my last post, I realize that under the constraints of the space and $$$, and the proximity of neighbors (about 50' to the East, and 30' to the South), not to mention the volume level of the drums, that I shouldn't get my hopes up too much, but I'm still hoping!!! I was stamping my foot on the floor in the proposed space last night. I can really understand how low frequencies travel through the concrete into the surrounding structure. I get the whole floating floor thing. I may be interested in a simple floating riser for the drums if such a thing can be constructed.Another thing - are you wanting to be able to play drums at 2 am without anyone hearing them, or just during normal hours (before 10 pm) and quiet enough outside not to be above background noise at your neighbors? (be reasonable here, this can be an expensive and time-consuming choice)
The window casing is 4" deep. The glass is relatively flush with the exterior wall surface. The window type is aluminum frame, single-paned x-o slider. I was already assuming this would need replacing. I was planning on either retrofitting a window model identical to those retrofitted a couple years ago in the living spaces of the house. They are triple-paned glass with hurky kevlar reinforced and foam insulated vinyl frames. The thickest I've ever seen. Its either that or use a less expensive dual-pane vinyl window, one on the outside and one on the inside oriented 5 degrees off of parallel to each other. I'd like them to remain clear, but is the opaque option to open the door to glass block? This window will be the only source of fresh air aside from the door to the garage....I guess that is an option isn't it? BTW the window is 4' x 3' as opposed to 5' x 3'. Memory recall got confused with other windows in the home.Next, the window - need a description including depth of window casing, where the glass is in relation to outside wall surface, type of window, single or double pane, whether you want to be able to see out later or opaque it...
Other points/questions:
1. There is a soffit that overhangs the East wall by 2'.
2. I have a good power drill for which I have phillips bits. Worthy alternative to the screw gun?
3. Sorry about not having a drawing for you. I don't have a good application for that on my computer. What do you use?
4. The ceiling is 98", not 95".
Now for the pictures.
The first picture is of the space in consideration. What a mess! The picture frame represents approximately where the North wall would be added. I was facing South when taking the picture. You can see the window on the East wall. A door swinging into the garage (which is to the West) would be added about were that huge white tool cabinet now hangs on the West wall. The East and South walls are exterior walls on 2" x 6" sill plates that sit on top of foundation walls that rise about 4" above the slab floor.
The second picture is of (surprise) the attic. This picture was taken just about directly above the position in the previous picture. Hence I was facing South here as well.
The last picture shows detail of the base of the East and South walls. The top of the foundation wall will need to be a work-around. With the 2" x 6" sill plate the foundation wall generates an approximate 2.5" wide by 5.5" tall obtrusion at the base of those walls. The West wall sits on a small concrete footing, but it is the same width as the 2" x 4" sill plate used on that wall.
Sorry for the long post, and a sincere thank you for your time and help.
Cory
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knightfly
- Senior Member
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- Joined: Sun Mar 16, 2003 11:11 am
- Location: West Coast, USA
Cory, sorry for the delay - long hours, short sleep, bad cold, equipment breakdowns, life's definitely gonna be the death of me 
If your lap siding isn't flat on the inside, it will be tough to soundproof your outside walls - it would entail removing the inner wallboard carefully, cutting along the studs - then, if the inside surface of that siding causes a sawtooth surface, you would need to fill it in flat with drywall joint compound to get it flat, and then use your old wallboard strips and edge glue them into the cavities against the siding to make a heavier leaf of mass. Then, add heavy insulation and two more layers of drywall on resilient channel, and you will have a lot better isolation.
The window - don't put two double windows in, you'll get worse low frequency iso than using two single windows spaced as far apart as possible and both sealed as good as you can.
You need to assess your space with the idea of accomplishing a double leaf of mass with air/insulation between, for every wall between you and the outside world - there's a concept drawing I did around here somewhere, maybe I'll just post it again -
Gotta hit the sack, working extra 12-hour graveyards with a bad cold isn't the best plan in the universe... Steve
If your lap siding isn't flat on the inside, it will be tough to soundproof your outside walls - it would entail removing the inner wallboard carefully, cutting along the studs - then, if the inside surface of that siding causes a sawtooth surface, you would need to fill it in flat with drywall joint compound to get it flat, and then use your old wallboard strips and edge glue them into the cavities against the siding to make a heavier leaf of mass. Then, add heavy insulation and two more layers of drywall on resilient channel, and you will have a lot better isolation.
The window - don't put two double windows in, you'll get worse low frequency iso than using two single windows spaced as far apart as possible and both sealed as good as you can.
You need to assess your space with the idea of accomplishing a double leaf of mass with air/insulation between, for every wall between you and the outside world - there's a concept drawing I did around here somewhere, maybe I'll just post it again -
Gotta hit the sack, working extra 12-hour graveyards with a bad cold isn't the best plan in the universe... Steve
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torridheatstudios
- Posts: 5
- Joined: Wed Sep 22, 2004 8:57 am
- Location: West Coast, USA
Steve,
My goodness. No apologies necessary...hope you are feeling better.
I really appreciate the time. I feel bad about the time you have spent as it looks like I may be changing courses here...my wife and I made an offer on a property with a lot more buffer space to neighboring dwellings, and it has a completely separate insulated 26' x 30' shop building with wood sheet siding. It would be awhile before I did anything with the space, but it changes the urgency and the restrictions quite a bit. Your time and advice is not for naught though as the details you have given me would go toward this new space. I'll check in down the road, or sooner of this deal does not go through.
Again, I really appreciate your time and willingness to share your expertise. It is rare. Hope you feel better soon and are able to get some rest (and to chase the gremlins out of the equipment.)
Cory
My goodness. No apologies necessary...hope you are feeling better.
I really appreciate the time. I feel bad about the time you have spent as it looks like I may be changing courses here...my wife and I made an offer on a property with a lot more buffer space to neighboring dwellings, and it has a completely separate insulated 26' x 30' shop building with wood sheet siding. It would be awhile before I did anything with the space, but it changes the urgency and the restrictions quite a bit. Your time and advice is not for naught though as the details you have given me would go toward this new space. I'll check in down the road, or sooner of this deal does not go through.
Again, I really appreciate your time and willingness to share your expertise. It is rare. Hope you feel better soon and are able to get some rest (and to chase the gremlins out of the equipment.)
Cory
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knightfly
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- Joined: Sun Mar 16, 2003 11:11 am
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No problem, Cory - you'll like having more space a LOT, and you're right - everything you learn (in ANY subject) will come in handy at some time or another, and the basic concepts I've mentioned aren't going to change just because you get lucky and make your space bigger - good luck on this, hope it works out for you... Steve