Workshop design - soundproofing

Plans and things, layout, style, where do I put my near-fields etc.

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1987tcullen
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Joined: Fri Jul 31, 2020 6:34 am
Location: Scotland, UK

Workshop design - soundproofing

Post by 1987tcullen »

I should preface this by saying it’s my first post; hopefully I’ve followed all the rules but if not please let me know. I've been reading a lot of great material on this website and it really is an incredible resource. My queries don’t relate to a studio, but I’m hoping that I might get some advice on my workshop since the principles seem to be the same.

I am likely to be made redundant shortly and am looking to upgrade my 6.1m x 3.8m x 2.2/2.3m (internal size) workshop in Scotland to be able to spend more time furniture building, potentially to kick off a new venture should I end up unemployed for a period. I have various power tools and would like to avoid disturbing my neighbours – there are 6 other houses within ~30m, and the closest bedroom is about 8m away. I would like to be able to work in the evenings as well as during the day and after 8ish there is a suburban background noise of ~40dBA with odd cars passing. I’m thinking if I stick to less than ~50dB I should avoid neighbourly disputes.

I used a £20 sound meter and got the following sound levels inside:

o Mitre saw Bosch GCM 8 SJL, 105dBA cutting with 48 tooth cross cut blade (reasonably sharp)
o Table saw Axminster TS 200 with general purpose blade (not very sharp), 95dBA cutting
o Vacuum, Nilfisk Aero 26-21, 76dBA
o Dust extractor, Axminster FM300 2HP, 87dBA
o Router, Dewalt DW 625 with 19mm straight cutter, 101dBA cutting (99.5 on max speed not cutting and 93 on half speed not cutting)
o Planer thicknesser, SIP 01454, 112dBA cutting 120x20mm larch, 105dBA cutting 45x45 pine

At present, I’m getting an average TL of 26dBA measured outside my garage door, 35 dBA outside the French doors/windows, and 45dBA round the back of the workshop.

I am targeting around 55dB TL to bring my loudest tools down to reasonable levels (ignoring the particularly loud planer thicknesser measurement - seems like I need a new quieter tool there :D )

I’m willing to spend up to ~£2k, although less is of course preferable.

I constructed my workshop around 2 years ago without really planning for soundproofing or reading this forum (oops). It has the following construction:
• Walls:
o Waney edge 22mm overlap cladding
o 25mm battens
o Breather membrane
o C16 4x2 stud frame at 400mm centres filled with 100mm fibreglass insulation
o Internal 11mm OSB3
• Roof
o 1.2mm EPDM membrane
o 11mm OSB3
o 8x2 joists at 400mm centres with 100mm fibreglass on room side and 100mm ventilation space on roof side connected to soffit vents
o Internal plasterboard 12.5mm
• Other features
o 2-off 800mm x 900mm double glazed hardwood windows
o A pair of wooden French doors, 1980mm x 1540mm with full height standard double glazing, a mortice lock and compression seals which could be better in places
o A thin (<10mm thk) electric roller garage door

My initial plan is effectively a room in a room, which would be mostly self-built. I’ve priced up materials at about £1850 for the below (got a few free fire doors which helped) and would lose ~100mm wall thickness all round. I value natural light, hence have kept windows and doors in this plan.

• Remove the roller garage door and replace with a wall to roughly match existing – I may want to add a set of sealed double fire doors here to give me outfeed for the tools when required and easier access for long boards, but I know sealing doors is time consuming and tricky
• Remove existing electrical outlets and plug gaps
• Add a layer of 12.5mm plasterboard to all existing internal wall/ceiling surfaces
• Build an internal stud wall using 38x68 CLS at 400 centres with 1 set of noggins and a 12mm gap to the wall surface
• Use 60x30x3 steel rectangular tube at 600 centres supported on stud wall with 12mm gap to the ceiling
• Fill with 50mm fibreglass insulation
• Line internally with 12.5mm plasterboard and tape and fill
• Add a pair of internal 30min fire doors with 10mm toughened glass panels to give me double French doors. Use Norsound 710 seals with a rebate all round to avoid tricky threshold seals
• Seal the existing openable windows closed, plug the vents with sealant and add 10mm toughened glass panel to internal wall window opening
• Surface mounted electrics to avoid penetrations through the plasterboard
• If necessary, add 2-off vents ~4-6” diameter with internal and external silencer boxes along the lines of a basic design I saw by Greg on this forum (18mm mdf baffles for internal, 18mm osb baffles plus larch clad for external and using 19mm/25mm Armaflex lining). Use a small inline fan on the exhaust to keep air moving.


My questions are:
1. Regarding frequency measurement, is this useful/valid data? Would you agree with my assertion about the sounds being mainly high frequency?

2. Does this plan seem like overkill to achieve my aims given that my existing walls seem to be only ~10dB away from my target?

a. Could I get away with just adding secondary FD30 fire doors, 10mm secondary glazing, replacing the garage door with wall and adding 2 sheets of internal 12.5mm plasterboard all round? I’m not too keen on resilient bar in the walls since it’ll stop me mounting cabinets and racks etc. If I assume current wall mass around 20kg/m2 then using the mass law for 2200Hz gives me my measured wall TL of ~45dBA. If I increase mass to 36kg/m2 (2 sheets of regular plasterboard), then I seem to only get another 5dB TL at the same frequency, so doesn’t seem like this will achieve the target if my approach is right. I'm assuming I've effectively got a single leaf, since my outer cladding etc is not sealed.

b. Would the addition of green glue and putty fillers for electrical outlets make this work? (I think I could do this for around £1500 in materials including £500 of green glue) – this would also save about 75mm of space all around and should be less work, so is quite appealing if I had confidence in would work

3. Is the standard 4mm/4mm double glazing on existing doors/windows a problem with regards triple leaf at the frequencies I'm interested in?

4. Does 10mm toughened glass for an internal leaf seem about right?

5. Would stiff steel ceiling members compromise soundproofing by transferring vibration easily? If so, would it be worthwhile trying to damp these with some kind of stick on membrane (tecsound or similar?)

6. Are there other options I should think about?
DanDan
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Re: Workshop design - soundproofing

Post by DanDan »

Fáilte Romhat. Wow you are clearly read to work, that's a lot of info.
Too much for me right now, but on a quick skim I can make a few points to point your boat in a better direction.
The A weighting used in Sound Level Meters is a really really strong High Pass Filter. It removes all bass from the measurements.
A Weighting.png
I like to use Z, no filter, or C which is nearly flat.
I would wonder about the LF response of the mic in a cheapo SLM.
I use iOS Meters a lot. Faberacoustical and Studiosixdigital do great software.

With some machinery running, listen all around the outside. There will be spots that are dramatically leaky.
Let's identify them and the actual spectra.
1987tcullen
Posts: 6
Joined: Fri Jul 31, 2020 6:34 am
Location: Scotland, UK

Re: Workshop design - soundproofing

Post by 1987tcullen »

Thanks for the welcome and for taking the time to give me a bit of feedback. Am I right in assuming you'd use with a separate mic with a phone? Will try and get hold of a ~£50 USB or 3.5mm mic or see if any friends have anything better and look to get some updated spectra and dbc readings.
1987tcullen
Posts: 6
Joined: Fri Jul 31, 2020 6:34 am
Location: Scotland, UK

Re: Workshop design - soundproofing

Post by 1987tcullen »

Got myself a Rode Smartlav+ and hooked up to my old Iphone with the Soundmeter X app by Faberacoustical (and the 7 day free pro trial). For interest, when I compare with the cheap sound meter I get ~5dBA higher values with the iphone at ambient, although got a good match at 100dbA with the router (which is mainly HF).

I've taken a some spectra for the louder tools which are attached - hard to cut wood and take screen grabs at the same time, so the peak lines are the ones to look at.

Dust Extractor, 96dBC
Table saw, 104dbC
Router, 103dbC
Planer thicknesser, ~115dbC
Mitre saw, 108dBC

I asked my wife to wander around the outside this afternoon taking measurements while I did some cutting (a bit windy and some background noise but believe still reasonably representative). Slightly lower TL than before which suggests you were right about lack of LF. There's a fair bit of leakage through the window vents and around door seals and the garage door does very little for soundproofing.

In front of garage door - average TL 16dBC
Outside french doors/windows - average TL 29dBC
Around the back - average TL 37dbC

Is this info sufficient to plan my soundproofing successfully?
DanDan
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Re: Workshop design - soundproofing

Post by DanDan »

Some of those measurements were taken with the 'Headset' Mic, that is probably the SmartLav. But others used the Bottom Mic.
Studiosixdigital specialise in iOS measurement. They state that the found no advantage in using external measurement mics as opposed to the iPhone Built in.
On a quick Google I see the SmartLav spec'd at 60-18K but 20-20K elsewhere. The LF rolled off is more credible for a Lav IMO.

Tools aside your investigation is perfectly valid. Clearly your Garage Door is by far the worst culprit.
I would tackle that first, and then move on to the next weakest link.

Are there any opportunities to reduce, contain, or nearby absorb, close to the sources? Is your interior reverberant, noisy, clattery?
1987tcullen
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Joined: Fri Jul 31, 2020 6:34 am
Location: Scotland, UK

Re: Workshop design - soundproofing

Post by 1987tcullen »

Thanks for coming back. Good spot, I did not pick up on that. Thinking of recording some projects for youtube so was imagining the mic may come in handy for that too.

There are some things I could reduce - the planer thicknesser produces a fairly poor finish and is very noisy - there are much quieter units which I'm eyeing up. I should replace blades on the table saw and mitre saw anyway which would help a little. I can turn the router speed down or close up the router table when it's mounted there. But even hammering a rubber faced mallet and chisel into wood is about 90dB . It doesn't sound echoey at all to me; there's a lot of wood around (cabinets, wood rack and osb over all the walls) which I guess has reasonable absorption. Ultimately I don't think I'm going to end up miles away from these figures, perhaps 10dB less if I'm careful and close up cabinets where I can.

It's once I get past the garage door that I'm not sure about - assuming I replace the garage door with a matching section of wall (or a pair of double fire doors and wall), seal up the window vents and improve seals on the french doors, what would I need to do to get from 37dB TL to ~55dB on the rest of the structure?

Would a room-in-a-room type design do the job, or might I get away with 1-2 layers of plasterboard internally (with or without green glue) along with secondary doors/glazing?
DanDan
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Re: Workshop design - soundproofing

Post by DanDan »

I do not have build experience. Perhaps someone with that will join us. But I can point to Acoustic principles and facts.
Plasterboard is afaik the cheapest mass available. Knauf, British Gypsum, publish extensive build details and test results of their products.
A typical cheap as chips board can do about 34dB Rw, but there are others which can do 40 or perhaps more.
The Mass Air Mass principle should apply, but with your current relatively lossy arrangements I couldn't guess as to whether you will suffer from multiple leaf effects or not. I suspect not.
I would be pretty confident that an internal steel studded leaf, not connected to the existing walls (Use neoprene or EPDM to isolate the wall and ceiling plates. GLUE not screws) with two layers of cheap plasterboard should deliver. Or one layer of high performance.... look at the Knaufs. But, downsides, your nicely dead workshop will become unpleasantly clattery. The interior noise levels will rise a but , but the harsh sound of bare plasterboard...... Sealing every thing is necessary, and then how to get quiet air to breathe?
It would be interesting to measure your TL of the roof, as that has a layer of plasterboard.
1987tcullen
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Location: Scotland, UK

Re: Workshop design - soundproofing

Post by 1987tcullen »

I guess I'll struggle to get a reliable roof reading while there's so much leakage through the garage door.

Interesting on the epdm, so do I understand that it would still be a fully isolated room, but the epdm/neoprene provides extra isolation between the wall bottom plate/floor interface and ceiling joist/wall top plate interface?

Is there a benefit to steel wall stud over wood in an isolated wall (I was thinking 38x68 cls)?

And regarding glass, would you think that 10mm toughened glass would work (approximately matching the inner leaf mass of 2 layers of plasterboard)?

I didn't think about the harsh sound, I guess I'll need to deal with that in due course.
DanDan
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Re: Workshop design - soundproofing

Post by DanDan »

I think you will find full blown construction details on the Gypsum and Knauf and perhaps other sites. You will probably understand the details way better than me! I am just the Acoustic guy here.
Steel studs seem a bit better and are cheap in some places. I suspect it will be wood in our part of the world. Fine. The studs should be installed away from the existing walls. A non touching gap. This will be filled lightly, not compressed, with light cheap partition roll. Use wire or whatever to prevent it sagging and drifting down over time. It should lightly touch the plasterboard to dampen it, but again no squeezing....
The bottom of the vertical studs are attached to what I would call a floor plate. Ditto ceiling. But this plate needs to be isolated from vibration/sound in the floor/ceiling. Neoprene/EPDM. Many people make the mistake of screwing through the plate for solidity, which of course makes contact, which resulting in footsteps being radiated by wall! Glue.
Afaik laminated glass should work better, are you expecting snipers? Are you in fact.....Mr. Bond....?
1987tcullen
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Joined: Fri Jul 31, 2020 6:34 am
Location: Scotland, UK

Re: Workshop design - soundproofing

Post by 1987tcullen »

Are you in fact.....Mr. Bond....?
Haha, you're onto me. The toughened glass just seems to be more widely available and reasonably priced (and might survive an occasional workshop projectile...) I could get glass for the 2 windows and french door glass for £200 to 300.

I'll see if I can find a supplier in the Glasgow area who can do laminated glass for a reasonable price.

I was indeed intending to secure the wall down (since I'm using about the smallest timbers I can get away with and this would help a little with strength) . I've got a concrete slab floor so imagined that vibration from the floor into the wall wouldnt be such a big issue. Have I got this wrong?
DanDan
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Re: Workshop design - soundproofing

Post by DanDan »

I guess, but not wrong, just not informed yet. Concrete conducts sound brilliantly. I think the speed of sound in Concrete is about ten times that in air, and it is simiarly less lossy. Look to the glass manufacturers data for soundproof value for money. Cheap and thick is probably better than thin high performance.
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