Drum room project

[prgc]

Hi everyone

My name is Paulo, and I've found this forum after searching about DIY studio projects, during the pandemic period...
First of all I'd like to say that this type of forums are amazing, because here we can get so much information! So, thank you for that!

Here I've found lots of information about the project that I'm planing: a drum room in my basement to practice and to do some home recordings (if possible), and try to not disturb much my neighbors.

I saw the beeros05 project and it is really an exemple to follow! Great job for him and for the forum!

So, if you allow me, I have a room in the basement of my building, that I've been using to play/practice in the last 15 years, but it is not prepared to play drums comfortably. I need to practice more, so I need to prepare the room to be comfortable and to avoid much noise to my neighbors.

The room is in the cave, where there are garages for the cars, and rooms for storage. My room is 2.91m width, 4.25m length and 3.45 height, it is a 12m2 with 3.45 height. Above the room is my own apartment. The floor of the room is concrete over the earth. There is a window that I'm closing using glass bricks so I can have day light. In this side there is the garden of the building. And on the other 2 sides of the room there are other rooms for storage, no ones use the rooms for any purposes other than storage. Because the rooms are all similar, I have one door that I must keep. It is a very cheap door without any acoustic treatment. And I installed a double glass door in the inside a few years, but at that time I was not considering the soundproofing as I'm doing now, so maybe the door is one of the issues I have to deal with...

During this period of searching I did some tests using the "Decibel X" in my iPad, by suggestion on a group on Facebook. These are the results:
Inside the room 110dB;
outside with door open 103dB;
outside room door closed 76dB;
in the middle of the garage (30m away) 66dB;
outside the garage, window side (30m away) 66dB
above the room, inside my own apartment 61dB

The lowest frequency showed in the iPad is 43Hz. I used a 22" bass drum.

If I could get 60dB of soundproofing I think it will be great for me to practice without disturb my neighbors.

At this point I filled all the cracks and I'm closing the window. And I've been reading many similar examples to follow.

So, my idea for now is:

Create a room in a room type. A friend of mine, architect, told me that I can use a mix between wood and metal studs. The plan is to create a wooden structure to receive the metal studs for the double leaf drywall 15mm thick (fire resistant - 12.4Kg/m2). But here I have one question: The ceiling with 2 layers of drywall will be around 300Kg weight (12.4Kg/m2 X 12m2 = 148Kg one layer of drywall). Using 2 layers it will be 300Kg for the ceiling. It seems very heavy... What thickness to hold 300kg of drywall?

About the existing walls they are brick walls 15mm thick. I've read that I need 10mm+ of distance between the brick walls and the new drywalls. Here's another question: another friend told me to insulate the existing walls and the ceiling using cork boards 30mm. Does the cork have any considerable impact on soundproofing, does it worth it? Or I must go for the drywall structure using the rock wool insulation (60Kg/m3)? If I use only the rock wool insulation, I must fill all the gap 10mm+ with insulation?

About the door I need to create a space for a new door on the new structure, to separate it from the existing inner door. This new door will open to the same side as the existing inner door. So, it has to be larger so I can open both doors to the same side.

About the ceiling I have a big question: I thought not using all the height for the new structure, the room is 3,45 height. I thought about using 2,70m of usable height, so it will create a 750mm gap of space between the existing concrete ceiling and the new drywall ceiling. Should I fill all this space with insulation? Does this make sense? Or it will be acoustically chaotic? Or I must create the room in a room with 3.45m height?.

For the floor, I'm thinking of installing a laminated floor, and a drum riser for the drums.

If you have any suggestions I'll appreciate that.

Thank you very much for your time!
Cheers

[DanDan]

Olá Paulo, é bem-vindo aqui.....
I think you meant to write cm not mm?
Cork has very little acoustic effect.

Soundproofing often uses two Mass Layers with an Air Gap between. Mass Air Mass. MAM.
Doubling any one of those adds 6dB Transmission Loss (Soundproofing).
So make a big gap between your ceiling and the concrete floor above. I would definitely put very light cheap insulation in there.
Take a long look and this document, and come back if you have questions or need some translation or explanation.
I don't speak Portuguese by the way! Pero algunos espanoles.

Air borne sound insulation copy.ppt

[prgc]

Hi

Thaks DanDan for your reply!

I think you meant to write cm not mm?

You are right. I meant 30mm/3cm thick about the cork boards. And I said 10mm air gap between the existing walls and the drywall, but it is wrong, I should say 100mm/10cm+. Thanks for the correction.

So make a big gap between your ceiling and the concrete floor above. I would definitely put very light cheap insulation in there

The friend who told me about the the cork boards, warned me about the big gap between the concrete ceiling and the drywall ceiling, if I leave such a big gap (75cm depending on the height of the new structure) it will be a big bass trap, and that will create a big problem with low frequencies and resonances. So I'm confused if I should use all the height of the room.

Take a long look and this document, and come back if you have questions or need some translation or explanation.

About the document you suggested, it is possible to get 60/70dB soundproofing using rockwool and double layer of drywall 12.5mm thick. So in my case it could be: brick wall - air gap/spring/cavity filled with insulation - 2 layers of drywall = 15cm+12cm+2.5cm or 3cm (depending on the drywall thickness). This will reduce about 15cm on each side of the room. I'm I right about this conclusion?

I think the bigger issue for me at this point is the structure itself. I'm not able to calculate the thickness of the structure to support 2 layers of drywall, because the ceiling span will be around 2.60m. And it must support the 2 layers of drywall and the future sound treatment...

Thanks again for your help
Paulo

[DanDan]

You are welcome. Those Rw figures are complex. One of their main goals was assessing domestic and office soundproofin:- muffled conversation at very low levels.
As such they don't include LF. So don't expect great isolation at LF. I am glad you noticed that the enclosed air gap is in fact a spring.
There are spring hangars designed to isolate a ceiling hung from above. https://mason-ind.com/ceiling-hangers/
They might determine your air gap. From the Isover document clearly it is best to fill the void with light fluffy fibre touching the plasterboard to contact dampen it. But NOT compressed in any way. With deep fills of fibre we sometimes have to install wires or other supports to prevent it from sagging under it's own weight.
Even at this state I would urge you to consider Acoustic Treatment. One of the cheapest and slam dunk effective is a suspended ceiling of absorbent tiles.
So Concrete floor, hanger sized gap, filled. Another gap, filled a bit at least, fully absorbent fibre tiles. e.g. Autex or Fibreglass products. I'm sure Vicoustic have something. But beware 'Office' tiles have a sound blocking layer on the back. They will have a higher CAC rating. Get fully absorbent.
Filling these deep voids could be problematical so just do your best, do at least an Attic insulation type of fill 200mm.
Damped like this they will be great bass traps.

[prgc]

With deep fills of fibre we sometimes have to install wires or other supports to prevent it from sagging under it's own weight.

Right. I was wondering how I'd fill all the space with insulation. This advice is great! I also searched for some examples and I think it will not be too hard to do.
However it is a huge cavity to deal with...

Filling these deep voids could be problematical so just do your best, do at least an Attic insulation type of fill 200mm.
Damped like this they will be great bass traps.

If I go for this option, would it be less complex to deal with the ceiling? But in this case I must create the structure with 3.20m height.

I was thinking also about creating a buffle box, that should be installed at this point. I saw GREGKRAUS thread, and maybe his project is interesting to follow:
http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewt ... r+#p110641

I apollogie for my questions, I'm really noobie. As you all know, when we don't have the knowledge or we are doing projects on a budget, it is a long path to go... But we must keep the motivation anyway

Thank you guys for your help!
Paulo

[DanDan]

I don't understand some of what you are saying, but perhaps this will make things clearer.
You have a high ceiling. If you want to add a Mass Layer for soundproofing, uses resilient hangers. The bigger the air gap the better.
And the more filled with light fibre the better.
Many people fit their HVAC into such hidden overhead spaces.
Now, BELOW this new ceiling you might want to consider an absorbent treatment layer.

[prgc]

I don't understand some of what you are saying, but perhaps this will make things clearer.

Sorry about that... I have some problems with English language

Now, BELOW this new ceiling you might want to consider an absorbent treatment layer.

If I understand, this will be: top ceiling (concrete) - air gap with insulation (the bigger the better) - absorbent treatment layer.
Question: below the treatment layer, should I install the 2 layers of drywall, or the treatment layer will be the inner ceiling itself?

[DanDan]

Damn languages. Hablas español?

top ceiling (concrete) - air gap with insulation (the bigger the better) - Sound BLOCKING layer, e.g. two layers of plasterboard/sheetrock
- another air gap - Treatment layer/visible ceiling which can be suspended ceiling of completely absorbing tiles. Note some tiles have a blocking layer for office privacy. Find the most absorbing, least blocking.... https://www.armstrongceilingsolutions.c ... ptima-line You can add some light fibre above these tiles for extra LF absorption.

This is the inner treatment layer, a suspended ceiling of Autex Polyester tiles with some light fibre included over it.

Ceiling 3 copy.jpg

[prgc]

Damn languages. Hablas español?

Hablo un poco de español

Sound BLOCKING layer, e.g. two layers of plasterboard/sheetrock

If I create the 2 layers ceiling, could it be fixed to the existing ceiling and walls? Or it will be bad for sound transmition?

Treatment layer/visible ceiling which can be suspended ceiling of completely absorbing tiles

About this treatment layer/visible ceiling, could it be on top of the new walls structure?

Here is a picture where I show my understanding of the suggestions until now.

rsz_captura_de_ecrã_2020-07-21_às_215819.jpg

From top ceiling going down:
- concrete ceiling; wooden studs, using wires to hold insulation; another layer of insulation (maybe more dense); 2 layers of drywall (BLOCKING CEILING)
- layer of insulation; treatment layer/visible ceiling

Questions:
- Could the blocking ceiling be fixed to the concrete ceiling?
- Could the treatment ceiling be supported by the new walls structure?
Does this make sense? Or the blocking ceiling and the treatment ceiling must be attached and supported by the new walls structure?

Thanks
Paulo

[prgc]

Damn languages. Hablas español?

Hablo un poco de español

http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewt ... 23&t=22518
Ola de nuevo.
Hace unas semanas he iniciado un tópico (en ingles) sobre la construcción de un espacio para estudiar/practicar batería e hacer algunas grabaciones, si es posible. Pero mi inglés no es muy bueno, y por sugerencia de DanDan voy a intentar comunicarme en español, a ver si es mejor…

Así que estoy buscando información sobre insonorizacion para mi espacio de estudio/práctica. Es una sala en la garage de mi predio. Las medidas son 4,25mX2.90m, y 3,45m de altura.
He hecho algunas mediciones con el celular e con el Ipad, utilizando la app DECIBEL X. Dentro de la sala he registrado 110dB, y en mi casa, que es la que está por encima de la sala de la batería he registrado 66 dB.


En este momento tengo el siguiente plan:

PAREDES: crearé estructura metálica para drywall. Tengo intención de crear las paredes con OSB (para refuerzo de la estructura global) + 2 camadas de drywall de 12,5mm, distanciada 100mm (10cm) de la pared existente. En el espacio entre la pared existente y la nueva pared (10cm) utilizaré lana de roca de 40kg/m3 o 60Kg/m3, con 100mm de espesor .
Question:
-> es mejor utilizar paredes flutuantes (estructura metálica sobre goma https://antivibration-systems.com/product/vibro-ws/ ), como en el caso de beeros05 viewtopic.php?f=2&t=17363&start=30 , o podré fixar la estructura metálica al suelo y al techo directamente?
-> Me han hablado en utilizar lana de roca con densidades diferentes, para las frecuencias graves y agudas, ¿alguna sugestión sobre este aspecto?

TECHO: voy a crear techo falso con suspensiones de goma (https://lesol-jgneto.com/index.php/prod ... ensoes-tva). 2 camadas de drywall de 12,5mm. El espacio entre el techo existente y el nuevo techo será de 150/200mm (15/20 cm), utilizando lana de roca bien ligera.


VENTILACIÓN: Este es un aspecto bastante difícil… En mi caso no es necesario un sistema de ventilación muy complejo. Entiendo que la ventilación es muy importante para la reposición de aire y para que la temperatura sea estable y así evitar la condensación. Tendré que crear cajas insonorizadas (baffle boxes) para el sistema de ventilación, pero estoy bastante perdido en este tema...

SUELO: crearé una plataforma (2x2m) para la batería con lana de roca de alta densidad, OSB, drywall e plywood.

VENTANA: he tapado la ventana existente con ladrillos de vidrio para tener la luz del día.

PUERTA: Durante la construcción del Room in a Room, voy a mantener una puerta de vidrio doble que he instalado hace unos años, cuando aún no pensaba en la insonorización. Más adelante instalaré dos puertas solidas de madera.

Si yo pudiera alcanzar 60/65dB de reducción de sonido sería genial! Lo digo porque beeros05 ha conseguido alcanzar estos números.
Vos parece posible con este plan?

Gracias!
Paulo