Ceiling Type & Design

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Leostriple
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Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2018 1:14 am

Ceiling Type & Design

Post by Leostriple »

Greetings! Many thanks for opportunity to post.

I'm in the architectural design phase of a new private home studio build in Memphis, TN that will be all new construction (we're not retrofitting an existing structure). The goal is to put enough front-end consideration into the design that we'll (fingers crossed) require minimal post-construction acoustic treatment. To that point, the one glaring design question I consistently have trouble resolving is ceiling design. Specifically, is there an optimal ceiling design that's best for a studio...Tray, Coffered, Beam, Cathedral, etc? Your time and consideration are greatly appreciated.
Paulus87
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Re: Ceiling Type & Design

Post by Paulus87 »

Leostriple wrote:Greetings! Many thanks for opportunity to post.

I'm in the architectural design phase of a new private home studio build in Memphis, TN that will be all new construction (we're not retrofitting an existing structure). The goal is to put enough front-end consideration into the design that we'll (fingers crossed) require minimal post-construction acoustic treatment. To that point, the one glaring design question I consistently have trouble resolving is ceiling design. Specifically, is there an optimal ceiling design that's best for a studio...Tray, Coffered, Beam, Cathedral, etc? Your time and consideration are greatly appreciated.
Hi,

It all depends on the rest of the design. Just like most aspects of studio design, it is all a system. What happens on the ceiling depends on what happens elsewhere in the room.

What’s the dimensions including height?

What existing treatment do you have planned on the other surfaces?

Does this need to be a completely isolated (soundproofed) space?

How many rooms are there?

Seperate tracking/control room?

Where are the doors and windows?

What equipment/furniture will be inside?

How much head height can you lose for effective ceiling treatment?

Regarding whether the ceiling should be angled or coffered etc depends on what (if any) constraints you have.

As a rough guide, high (11’ or more) flat ceilings are best with ample space (e.g a meter or more) for acoustic treatment.

Paul
Paul
Leostriple
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Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2018 1:14 am

Re: Ceiling Type & Design

Post by Leostriple »

Paul -- Many thanks for the detailed response. In being respectful of your time, I wasn't expecting a much appreciated deep dive. Incredible, and thank you. I'll circle back around this week as we polish some of the final dimensioning and layout with the architect. Thanks a million. Ev
DanDan
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Re: Ceiling Type & Design

Post by DanDan »

Simple answer, high and absorbent. You might consider designing the floor above to be soundproof. This would allow visible beams below, nice appearance. Insert fibre batts faced with cosmetic fabric. e.g. RealTraps Ceiling Tiles. Or Caruso Isobond.
Leostriple
Posts: 5
Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2018 1:14 am

Re: Ceiling Type & Design

Post by Leostriple »

Many thanks for the initial feedback. It's greatly appreciated. I'm circling back around with the details.

Main Design Objective: To build a ground up private music space primarily used for music development and rehearsal that can also serve as an occasional recording studio. I’m doing this for my son, Seba, who is as gifted musically as I am deficient. Seba is also pitch perfect. As such, I’d like to create a space where his instruments can produce as much natural tone with minimal ongoing environmental tweaking. I’m completely respectful of your time and would appreciate some general feedback on overall architectural design and layout. My current main stall point is nailing down “Ceiling Design”. In other words, all-things-considered, how should I design my ceiling? We can design any ceiling we want at this stage with any height. My preference is a larger open space. HOWEVER, acoustic quality wins over aesthetic appeal.

Targeted Current Room Dimensions: 30’ L x 22’ W x 14’ H; Apx. 600 SqFt Main Room + 60 SqFt Storage.

Primary Usage
• 70% practice and rehearsal
• 30% recording

This will be a rehearsal and recording space that will include a 15’ – 20’ section of “NanaWall” that will open into an outdoor living area for occasional indoor-outdoor home concerts.

Control Room: I won’t have a separate control room at first.

Noise Insulation: This does not have to be completely soundproof from an external perspective given we have good natural separation from neighbors and we’re on a hilltop in the woods. Snakeproof is another issue...

Current Material Design
Frame: 2 x 6 frame.
Insulation: Combination of 3” open cell foam + 2 – 3” of 703 + a layer of Accoustiblok or similar MLV. I’m using a layer foam primarily for thermal value rather than its acoustic benefit.
Foundation: Concrete Slab.
Drywall: 5/8”
Floor: Floated wood on MLV.
Interior Appearance: Wood and Timber
Ceiling: Currently a cathedral design.
Back Wall: The entire back wall (not the nana wall opening) will also be lined with wooden whisky barrel staves from reclaimed whisky barrels. The staves are varied in width and will create a naturally undulating inconsistent pattern.

Thank you much.
Paulus87
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Location: Wales, UK

Re: Ceiling Type & Design

Post by Paulus87 »

Leostriple wrote:Many thanks for the initial feedback. It's greatly appreciated. I'm circling back around with the details.

Main Design Objective: To build a ground up private music space primarily used for music development and rehearsal that can also serve as an occasional recording studio. I’m doing this for my son, Seba, who is as gifted musically as I am deficient. Seba is also pitch perfect. As such, I’d like to create a space where his instruments can produce as much natural tone with minimal ongoing environmental tweaking. I’m completely respectful of your time and would appreciate some general feedback on overall architectural design and layout. My current main stall point is nailing down “Ceiling Design”. In other words, all-things-considered, how should I design my ceiling? We can design any ceiling we want at this stage with any height. My preference is a larger open space. HOWEVER, acoustic quality wins over aesthetic appeal.

Targeted Current Room Dimensions: 30’ L x 22’ W x 14’ H; Apx. 600 SqFt Main Room + 60 SqFt Storage.

Primary Usage
• 70% practice and rehearsal
• 30% recording

This will be a rehearsal and recording space that will include a 15’ – 20’ section of “NanaWall” that will open into an outdoor living area for occasional indoor-outdoor home concerts.

Control Room: I won’t have a separate control room at first.

Noise Insulation: This does not have to be completely soundproof from an external perspective given we have good natural separation from neighbors and we’re on a hilltop in the woods. Snakeproof is another issue...

Current Material Design
Frame: 2 x 6 frame.
Insulation: Combination of 3” open cell foam + 2 – 3” of 703 + a layer of Accoustiblok or similar MLV. I’m using a layer foam primarily for thermal value rather than its acoustic benefit.
Foundation: Concrete Slab.
Drywall: 5/8”
Floor: Floated wood on MLV.
Interior Appearance: Wood and Timber
Ceiling: Currently a cathedral design.
Back Wall: The entire back wall (not the nana wall opening) will also be lined with wooden whisky barrel staves from reclaimed whisky barrels. The staves are varied in width and will create a naturally undulating inconsistent pattern.

Thank you much.
I think it's really cool that you're building this for your son. You have a really nice amount of space available, are those dimensions set in stone or can they be changed? You can go to www.bobgolds.com and click on the room mode calculator, plug in your dimensions and you can see a load of helpful information about your potential room including its modal frequencies.

When you say you do not need a control room at first, does that mean you're hoping to convert some of the space into a control room in the future? If you are planning to convert some of the space into a control room later then that will need to be planned out now so that you can make sure the future control room space will be suitable, even if you do not build it yet.

If this space is just going to stay as a rehearsal and occasional recording space then the dimensions and shapes are less critical, since you will not base the room around a single critical listening position and the instruments and microphones will move around all the time depending on needs. A space with variable acoustic treatment would probably be your best bet here, which could be in the form of two sided hinged panels, one side absorptive for a drier sound and the other side reflective/diffusing for a more lively sound. You'll definitely want a reflective, hard floor and you'll want ample ceiling treatment in the form of absorptive clouds or angled reflective/diffusing panels. large (2' - 3' or more) bass trapping in all the corners will be beneficial, and bass trapping on the ceiling too if you can. There's a few different ways of building bass traps depending on how much space you are willing to sacrifice and how low down you want to absorb. Usually the modal frequencies of the room are the main frequencies to focus on.

How sure are you that you do not require much sound isolation in terms of sound coming in/out of the space? I ask because this really cannot be something that you change later... there isn't anything you can stick on the walls to magically soundproof a space and the soundproofing aspect of the design needs to be the first thing to be built.

Your plan of using 3" open cell foam, OC and MLV is not going to provide much sound isolation at all, to the point where the MLV is a waste of money. It won't make much difference at all, especially in a "sandwich". The open cell foam may be good for thermal insulation but is useless for blocking sound, and in fact all insulation no matter how dense or thick will not block sound alone. I know you may not need much isolation, but, just in case you decide that you do need it or are planning to do it later here's a typical assembly for doing so...

Outside world - Cladding - drywall - OSB - Studs - insulated airgap (low density "fluffy stuff") - studs - OSB - drywall - drywall - acoustic treatment - internal room.

That's just one of many examples. The amount of mass layers (e.g. drywall, OSB etc) and the size of the insulated airgap between these layers is dependant on how much sound reduction you need and how low down the frequency spectrum you need that level of isolation. Typically these walls/ceiling assemblies take up 1' or more of space, and that's before the acoustic treatment, and however you build the walls walls you must also match with equivalent mass/airgap on the ceiling/roof. On top of that, all layers need to be completely sealed air tight with no gaps, cracks or holes whatsoever. This means your nana wall is a potential problem since you want to have large opening windows and doors, but that can be overcome if designed correctly. And it should be built on a concrete slab directly in the ground.

Now, if you do not need to do all that and are happy with a simple residential style build then it will make things a hell of a lot easier and cheaper, and it means you will have more space and money for acoustic treatment inside the space itself. But, I would hate for you to build it and then decide later on that actually you do need it to be isolated. As long as aeroplanes, wind, rain, thunder, wildlife, occasional car noise etc are not going to ever be an issue and you will never annoy anyone nearby then it is not needed.

Those are my thoughts for now,
Paul
Paul
Leostriple
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Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2018 1:14 am

Re: Ceiling Type & Design

Post by Leostriple »

Can’t thank you enough, Paul. This is one-in-a-million mentorship. I’ll heed to your all of your advice and start beefing up my sound proofing while incorporating sound clouds and other suggested treatments in the design. The “MLV camp” would lead you to believe their material would insulate an atomic explosion. I appreciate you taking me to school on this. As of your email, I’m also planning on adding isolation clips with hat channel.

To drill into your questions:

Are those dimensions set in stone or can they be changed?
We’re flexible at this stage given I’m in the conceptual stage. We can adjust.

Does that mean you're hoping to convert some of the space into a control room in the future?
This studio is for friends and family right now. I don’t see a personal need to create a separate control room for our foreseeable needs. This may change as my son gets older when he’s ultimately driving the studio strategy (Assuming my fatherly obligations have been satisfied). Seba is heading into third grade, and I’m building this with a “Room-to-grow” mindset.

One last architectural question please that I’m still foggy on: Is there a specific ceiling type that tends to serve as a “best-in-class” design standard for music studios. I’ve seen all types here in Memphis. Sun Studio is fairly simple, STAX and Ardent couldn’t be more different, and Royal is its on thing. But all have produced absolutely legendary records. All this being said, if you had to pick one ceiling type to put on paper, then what would it be, please?

Thanks again, Paul.
Paulus87
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Re: Ceiling Type & Design

Post by Paulus87 »

There is no standard, especially for a tracking room. I like high flat ceilings with absorbent/diffusive treatments because providing you have no height constraints it offers the biggest amount of volume. Cathedral ceilings are also fine. As this is not a control room it can have some character.

Paul
Paul
Leostriple
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Re: Ceiling Type & Design

Post by Leostriple »

Thank you Paul. Your time and consideration are greatly appreciated. One last question please...

You've convinced me to drop my plan for three inches of open cell foam. As such, should I simply back fill that same space with additional rock wool? We'll be using 2x6's for framing. Again, thank you Sir.
Paulus87
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Location: Wales, UK

Re: Ceiling Type & Design

Post by Paulus87 »

You're welcome.

Are you building a room within a room or single stud walls all the way round with boards on both sides of the studs?

Either way yes, total fill the cavity with cheap fluffy insulation. It doesn't need to be Rockwool (there is no significant increase in sound reduction by using Rockwool) but you can use it if you already have it.

Paul
Paul
DanDan
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Re: Ceiling Type & Design

Post by DanDan »

Small passing caveat. The hard foam insulations have no acoustic benefit, but are three times better thermally.
A recent client of mine asked a builder for a single room studio space. It is a disaster, freezing cold. So you might consider bigger airgaps with both types of insulation in there I guess.
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