New Vocal Booth Build

[mchit]

Sorry about that. I’ll try to clarify.

For 5/4 the only stuff immediately available nearby is cedar decking. That was why we framed it to build with 2x6 for the door frame instead. Unfortunately, in my own stupidity, we didn’t leave enough space to frame both sides (I have 31.5in instead of the 33 I’ll need). Would it work to remove one of the two 2x4 studs on the non-hinge side (they’re doubled up on both sides)?

I also recently realized that there’s a sawmill a little ways out of town where I can get 5/4 if needed. But at this point, it seems to make more sense to go with 6/4 due to measurement issues (if I take out a stud). I can get 6/4 pine there, which I used for the window (picture included). Would that work? I’ll also check if they have hardwood and go with that instead if they do.

In happier news, the window was completed yesterday! Still need to trim it out, but hey! Both panes are installed.

Thanks again for all the help.

Matt

[mchit]

If this helps, here is what I am thinking re: the door. I replaced it in the sketchup file. I'll use 6/4 on the sides and 1x6 on the top and bottom. The door opening is 1/8in wider than the door itself and 1/4in taller. There is also 1/8in give on either side of the frame to allow for plumbing/leveling, etc... Is that enough wiggle room? I could go down to 5/4, but that could leave me with 3/8 or more of an inch on either side. Though I could do backer rod and caulk if we went that route.

Sorry for the complication!

Matt

PS. I saved the sketchup as 2015. Let me know if it doesn't work for some reason.

[Gregwor]

That lumber size will work for sure. But what are you doing about seals for the doors? You don't have any of that drawn on your skp.

Greg

[mchit]

That lumber size will work for sure. But what are you doing about seals for the doors? You don't have any of that drawn on your skp.

The 6/4 I assume? And pulling out the one stud should be fine?

As for seals, I have the K type that Rod recommends (as per your suggestion in February, I got a bunch from the distributor in London, ON). I'll be using that along with stops.

I'm trying to figure out exactly how much I need to add to the door based on the rest of the booth. It is a solid core 1 3/8. I will add 3/4 OSB or Plywood, but am trying to see whether or not I also need the sheet lead. I'm gonna ask the local roofing company about getting some lead flashing from them and pricing it out. Think it's needed?

Thanks so much!

Matt

[Gregwor]

The 6/4 I assume? And pulling out the one stud should be fine?

I think you'll be fine because the 3 studs are still on the hinge side. As long as you have noggins other either side of the door you'll be good.

I'm gonna ask the local roofing company about getting some lead flashing from them and pricing it out. Think it's needed?

Personally, I don't think so. If you add up the surface density of your door materials, it is more than enough. The seals, automatic door closer and NOT putting a through door handle on will be the key to your success.

Greg

[mchit]

I think you'll be fine because the 3 studs are still on the hinge side. As long as you have noggins other either side of the door you'll be good.

Great! Figured that would be the case, but wanted to check.

Personally, I don't think so. If you add up the surface density of your door materials, it is more than enough. The seals, automatic door closer and NOT putting a through door handle on will be the key to your success.

Awesome!

One more question. Everything I’m reading about general door hanging says you should put long screws through the top hinges (like 3in) for heavy doors. That can’t really be done into double drywall though. I assume I need to recess the door in this case so I can hit the stud? Or is it fine to double hinge at top with this door weight (likely around 100-120lbs with just the door and ply) And use 1 1/2in screws?

Thanks!

Matt

[Gregwor]

One more question. Everything I’m reading about general door hanging says you should put long screws through the top hinges (like 3in) for heavy doors. That can’t really be done into double drywall though. I assume I need to recess the door in this case so I can hit the stud? Or is it fine to double hinge at top with this door weight (likely around 100-120lbs with just the door and ply) And use 1 1/2in screws?

I'm slightly confused here. Your door jamb (hardwood) should match up to your wall door frame and the hinges will mount to the door jamb. The reason you're using the hardwood jamb is to handle the weight of the door.

This might help you with your hinges:

"Normally, the hinge spacing for four hinges would be one hinge 5" from the top and one 11" from the bottom, with the other two evenly spaced between them. In this case, however, she suggested moving the uppermost center hinge closer to the top, as the top hinges bear most of the torque."

Here is a door I helped build. It's slightly open but you can see the hinge spacing and that the jamb is more than strong enough to hold the door true and sturdy.

Test Fit.jpeg

Greg

[mchit]

I'm slightly confused here. Your door jamb (hardwood) should match up to your wall door frame and the hinges will mount to the door jamb. The reason you're using the hardwood jamb is to handle the weight of the door.

Ahh dang! I didn't know about the hardwood until after I had purchased the door jamb wood. Rod doesn't mention it in the book, and seems to suggest that pine is fine. Your post last week was the first mention I saw of it, and at that point, I had the wood bought. I have 1 3/8in pine for the sides of the frame and 3/4in for the top and bottom. I double checked with both the sawmill and door company in town, and they both told me that those pine boards would be more than strong enough to hold the door with the commercial hinges. So I bought it the other week and have already spent the hours chiseling the hinge mortises. Can't return it, and can't really afford to buy more wood at this point given that the booth is already over budget and COVID has stopped most of my work.

Regarding the long screws though, the sawmill, the door company, and the hardware store said that any heavy doors, irrelevant of jamb material, need to have long hinge screws in the top hinge going directly into the studs for stability and to keep the door from sagging. Because of the double drywall thickness, the hinge plates don't go far enough back that the screws will hit the studs. In order to do so, I would need to recess the door (unless I want it opening to the inside, which would suck in the small space).

I guess what I really need to know is if the double hinge at the top into 1 3/8 thick pine will hold the door fine without long hinge screws into the studs (since the jamb itself will be screwed in). And if I have to recess the door jamb back 10/8in to meet the door frame, will that affect soundproofing, assuming it's all still airtight? I feel like that option will be more difficult to achieve as there will be more pieces to add.

Does this all make sense? Sorry if I'm being confusing. I threw a couple pictures up to hopefully help clarify (of the hinge spots on the jamb and the drywall depth). I also put up a pic of a quick dry fit in the frame.

This might help you with your hinges:

"Normally, the hinge spacing for four hinges would be one hinge 5" from the top and one 11" from the bottom, with the other two evenly spaced between them. In this case, however, she suggested moving the uppermost center hinge closer to the top, as the top hinges bear most of the torque."

Yeah, I did almost exactly that, except my bottom hinge is 5in from the bottom as that was what I had been told (though now that I'm reading further up, I'm not sure why they told me that, lol!). Hopefully it works! I have the top doubled. 5in from the top and then a few inches lower. I have 4 commercial ball bearing hinges. Not cheap! Haha.

Here is a door I helped build. It's slightly open but you can see the hinge spacing and that the jamb is more than strong enough to hold the door true and sturdy.

That looks great! Thanks for that.

Two other question re: doors.

1) For the stops, Rod says to use 3/4 pine, which I have. He doesn't, however, say how far back to set them to account for the weatherstripping. How far do you usually set them back from where the door sits? I'm assuming 1/2in, which allows for some compression of the weatherstripping? I will be using a door closer, so no handle or strike.

2) For the 3/4 plywood I'm gonna put on the door, do I just screw it on, or do I glue it first and then screw it? Or something else? I searched the forum, but couldn't find an explicit answer. Probably didn't search with the right criteria?

Thanks again! I really do appreciate all the help!

Matt

[mchit]

Two other question re: doors.

1) For the stops, Rod says to use 3/4 pine, which I have. He doesn't, however, say how far back to set them to account for the weatherstripping. How far do you usually set them back from where the door sits? I'm assuming 1/2in, which allows for some compression of the weatherstripping? I will be using a door closer, so no handle or strike.

Looks like I found a partial answer directly from Rod here: https://www.gearslutz.com/board/studio- ... sucks.html

He says that he staples the rubber in place when the door is shut, and the installs the stop over it. Is this what you do as well, or something different? If the same, do you do this with the door in the wall, or laying on the ground in the jamb? Thanks!

2) For the 3/4 plywood I'm gonna put on the door, do I just screw it on, or do I glue it first and then screw it? Or something else? I searched the forum, but couldn't find an explicit answer. Probably didn't search with the right criteria?

After some more thinking, I'm assuming I should both wood glue and screw the piece of plywood? To prevent air leaks?

Thanks again!

Matt

[Gregwor]

I guess what I really need to know is if the double hinge at the top into 1 3/8 thick pine will hold the door fine without long hinge screws into the studs (since the jamb itself will be screwed in).

I can't give you a confident answer to this. But I can say that pine is not very strong compared to a great hardwood!

And if I have to recess the door jamb back 10/8in to meet the door frame, will that affect soundproofing, assuming it's all still airtight? I feel like that option will be more difficult to achieve as there will be more pieces to add.

That would be fine. Looking at your pictures, you can see that there wouldn't be a void for surface density anywhere.

I have 4 commercial ball bearing hinges. Not cheap! Hah

For sure! I found the Hager equivalent of the Stanley hinges were a fraction of the price!

1) For the stops, Rod says to use 3/4 pine, which I have. He doesn't, however, say how far back to set them to account for the weatherstripping. How far do you usually set them back from where the door sits? I'm assuming 1/2in, which allows for some compression of the weatherstripping? I will be using a door closer, so no handle or strike.

Here is a copy/paste of my door stop notes:
-------------------------------------
If the worst comes to the worst, you can always take off the seals, rabbet the jamb and/or door edge a bit with a router, and put the seals back on again. The idea is that they need to be slightly compressed, but only to about 15% or 20% of their nominal thickness, max.



Rod Gervais wrote this regarding mounting the rubber to the jambs:

“look at the door details - you don't use glue to hold it in place -

Staples to temp set it work just fine - and then it's the wood stops that lock it into place. “



1) From the drawings in your book (pages 94 & 96), it looks like the stops are cut or notched to hold the rubber, is this true?

2) To replace the rubber, you need to remove the stops?

Yup - sure nuff would - but - seeing as this faces no weather - no sun - and has nothing rubbing it in its length - - I don't forsee you having to ever replace the rubber in your lifetime........


Forget the home owners special - go to a real lumber yard to find good 5/4 stock material.

As far as the rubber goes - I don't think you can ever get it to lay down flat against the jamb (at the door itsef) and still lock it in tight to the jamb.



nothing in the world could be easier.

Go inside the room and have someone hold the door so that it is closed flush with the jamb.

Just slightly snug up the rubber to the door and staple it into position.

Onces you get it going you should be able to stretch it ever so slightly and set it into position every 3 feet or so.......

Miter the corners and fit them snugly together.

Once you have them all rough set - check for final fitting adjustments and then staple them about every 4 to 6" to hold them in place.

Do a final fit check by opening and closing the door a couple of times.

Once final adjustments are made - install the rabbetted trim - using 6d nails when fastening through the rubber and 8d nails on the outside - nail @ 8" o.c. both edges in 3/4" on the thick side and 1/2" in on the rabbetted side. Again - make sure that the door is being held completely closed (but not more than (TIP OF THE DAY) if you want perfect accuracy - but don't want to trust that to the person on the other side of the door - then just have them nail 2 temp wooden cross pieces into the door jamb at roughly 1/3" spacings on the door - this will ensure no movement of the door itself.

When installing the trim take care to assure that you are (again) setting the trim to just apply a very gentle even pressure of the rubber against the door - too much pressure will cause for difficulty in proper closing of the door assembly.

repeat the operation for the 2nd gasket.

Rod
-------------------------------------

2) For the 3/4 plywood I'm gonna put on the door, do I just screw it on, or do I glue it first and then screw it? Or something else? I searched the forum, but couldn't find an explicit answer. Probably didn't search with the right criteria?

Roll a nice layer of wood glue on it. Use a bunch of clamps and cauls (I made my own using my jointer out of scrap wood). I also put in a handful of wood screws in.

Greg

[mchit]

Haha, looks like you were replying to my message as I was! Thanks Greg. This info is great!

I can't give you a confident answer to this. But I can say that pine is not very strong compared to a great hardwood!

Truth!

That would be fine. Looking at your pictures, you can see that there wouldn't be a void for surface density anywhere.

Great! In that case, I may recess the door back 3/4 of an inch or so to make sure the hinge screws can bite into the studs. Then I'll just trim it out.

For sure! I found the Hager equivalent of the Stanley hinges were a fraction of the price!

I couldn't find them anywhere. The local guy had the Stanley ones, so I eventually just bit the bullet and coughed up $20/hinge.

Here is a copy/paste of my door stop notes:
-------------------------------------
If the worst comes to the worst, you can always take off the seals, rabbet the jamb and/or door edge a bit with a router, and put the seals back on again. The idea is that they need to be slightly compressed, but only to about 15% or 20% of their nominal thickness, max.



Rod Gervais wrote this regarding mounting the rubber to the jambs:

“look at the door details - you don't use glue to hold it in place -

Staples to temp set it work just fine - and then it's the wood stops that lock it into place. “



1) From the drawings in your book (pages 94 & 96), it looks like the stops are cut or notched to hold the rubber, is this true?

2) To replace the rubber, you need to remove the stops?

Yup - sure nuff would - but - seeing as this faces no weather - no sun - and has nothing rubbing it in its length - - I don't forsee you having to ever replace the rubber in your lifetime........


Forget the home owners special - go to a real lumber yard to find good 5/4 stock material.

As far as the rubber goes - I don't think you can ever get it to lay down flat against the jamb (at the door itsef) and still lock it in tight to the jamb.



nothing in the world could be easier.

Go inside the room and have someone hold the door so that it is closed flush with the jamb.

Just slightly snug up the rubber to the door and staple it into position.

Onces you get it going you should be able to stretch it ever so slightly and set it into position every 3 feet or so.......

Miter the corners and fit them snugly together.

Once you have them all rough set - check for final fitting adjustments and then staple them about every 4 to 6" to hold them in place.

Do a final fit check by opening and closing the door a couple of times.

Once final adjustments are made - install the rabbetted trim - using 6d nails when fastening through the rubber and 8d nails on the outside - nail @ 8" o.c. both edges in 3/4" on the thick side and 1/2" in on the rabbetted side. Again - make sure that the door is being held completely closed (but not more than (TIP OF THE DAY) if you want perfect accuracy - but don't want to trust that to the person on the other side of the door - then just have them nail 2 temp wooden cross pieces into the door jamb at roughly 1/3" spacings on the door - this will ensure no movement of the door itself.

When installing the trim take care to assure that you are (again) setting the trim to just apply a very gentle even pressure of the rubber against the door - too much pressure will cause for difficulty in proper closing of the door assembly.

repeat the operation for the 2nd gasket.

Rod

This is great stuff. Thanks so much! So he does notch/rabbet the doorstops then. Hrm. I don't have a way to do that here. Gotta figure it out. Haha. In the meantime, I'll put up the door and throw in a temp stop so I at least have a place to work in.

Roll a nice layer of wood glue on it. Use a bunch of clamps and cauls (I made my own using my jointer out of scrap wood). I also put in a handful of wood screws in.

Perfect! I actually built a workbench (pic attached) from booth scraps! (Yay for "free"!) yesterday, so I will have somewhere to lay the door when clamping.

Thanks again for all your help Greg. Hope you're doing well!

Matt

[mchit]

So, I put up the door today, after purchasing everything I needed for it. Unfortunately, the door isn't sitting quite right. I managed to get it to shut without touching any sides, but it won't fully close. The hinge side is too tight. I tried slipping some cardboard behind the hinges (as some sites were suggesting), but it didn't help either. I don't think I chiseled too deep, as they sit flush, but clearly the door is pressing before the hinges.

Any suggestions? It all fit well when I dry fit it before hanging.

At this point, I thinking of just calling the door company in town to see what they suggest. I'm not sure what to do with it and don't wanna screw it up, given how expensive the parts are.

Any help would be much appreciated! Thanks so much. Pictures are attached.

Matt

[Gregwor]

You can totally manipulate how the door fits by adjusting how the hinges fit into the jamb. Use some wooden shims/wedges to push out the hinges (or the front, back, top, or bottom of them). A little playing with that should get you into the right spot! The only other thing I would suggest is measuring your jamb corner to corner to see if it is true and rectangular. I believe you should have about an 1/8th of an inch around the entire door slab between it and the jamb.

Greg

[mchit]

You can totally manipulate how the door fits by adjusting how the hinges fit into the jamb. Use some wooden shims/wedges to push out the hinges (or the front, back, top, or bottom of them). A little playing with that should get you into the right spot! The only other thing I would suggest is measuring your jamb corner to corner to see if it is true and rectangular. I believe you should have about an 1/8th of an inch around the entire door slab between it and the jamb.

Thanks! I ended up manipulating them with some shimming and minor jamb adjustments. The door now sits about 2-3mm off of flush with the jamb, without anything holding it. Given how little pressure is needed to hold it flush, I think the door closer should do the rest of the job. To get any close would likely require taking the whole thing apart given how tightly it fits in certain places. Any reason not to leave it as is and caulk and install the weatherstripping, caulk, and closer? Pics attached.

Thanks again!

Matt

[Gregwor]

I think that looks good from what I can see! Good work!

Greg