Studio in Azeitão - Portugal (Part II)

[Duarte_Vader]

Hi Guys

After design my studio it's time to build it!
The studio will be build in two separate rooms in my basement.
This is the design:

salas.JPG

I've a doubt about the insulation. I've a wall that will need 27 cm of mineral wool. It's because the existent wall have a frame. How can I handle with this? Full filled with mineral wool or can I build another brick wall attached to the existing, eliminating the existing frame?

frame.JPG

The hardware store near me suggested these dampers (is that the correct name for it???) to the ceiling. What you think?
It can handle with two or three gypsum board?

pivot.JPG

http://pontoplaca.pt/wp-content/uploads ... 360-47.pdf

To build the wall framing this is the correct way of do it, like I saw on a post?
http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/downl ... p?id=43509
http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/downl ... p?id=43510

[Gregwor]

After design my studio it's time to build it!

After your design is 100% done, then you build it. Your design looks very very far from done. Have you figured out your HVAC and electrical? You don't have any acoustic treatment drawn. Your soffit looks 1% done and I could be wrong because I'm just looking at it, but it looks like it won't work. It looks like you are not obtaining an RFZ sphere around your head.

I've a doubt about the insulation. I've a wall that will need 27 cm of mineral wool. It's because the existent wall have a frame. How can I handle with this? Full filled with mineral wool or can I build another brick wall attached to the existing, eliminating the existing frame?

Fill it with mineral wool and then build your inner leaf in front of it, not touching the existing stuff at all.

The hardware store near me suggested these dampers (is that the correct name for it???) to the ceiling. What you think?
It can handle with two or three gypsum board?

Don't use this and certainly don't listen to anyone at a hardware store unless they are a studio designer. Build it using tried and true easy/cheap methods. Frame your inner leaf walls and rest your inner leaf ceiling joists on top of the inner leaf walls. Done. Simple.

Greg

[Duarte_Vader]

Don't use this and certainly don't listen to anyone at a hardware store unless they are a studio designer. Build it using tried and true easy/cheap methods. Frame your inner leaf walls and rest your inner leaf ceiling joists on top of the inner leaf walls. Done. Simple.

Sounds very simple to do it. Do you have photos of it?

Fill it with mineral wool and then build your inner leaf in front of it, not touching the existing stuff at all.

After your design is 100% done, then you build it.

Ok, I know that... But I've a great opportunity to have help from a guy who works with drywall to help me this summer. The focus is only the new walls, and off course HVAC and electrical. I'll draw it.

Your soffit looks 1% done and I could be wrong because I'm just looking at it, but it looks like it won't work. It looks like you are not obtaining an RFZ sphere around your head.

It's not drawn at all. Only the front wall.
Could you check my raytracing:
http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/downl ... p?id=65871
http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/downl ... p?id=65872

[Gregwor]

Do you have photos of it?

There are probably 100's of threads on the forum with SketchUp drawings as well as real life pictures of this. I'm sure you can find a bunch of pics

Could you check my raytracing:

Looks great

Greg

[Duarte_Vader]

There are probably 100's of threads on the forum with SketchUp drawings as well as real life pictures of this. I'm sure you can find a bunch of pics

Thanks Greg!
I don't find any with steel frame, only wood frame, but I found this video:
https://youtu.be/rCWlakmLgpc
It's something like this? It can handle with two or three gypsum board?

About HVAC... (I'm doing the maths for this)
For now I don't have money to get a mini slipt system to each room, but in this post (http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewt ... 04&start=0) you said you used a inline fan. It's possible to me? How it's works? In the future it's possible to upgrade to a air conditioner system?
I'm thinking of getting fresh air thru the garage for the 3 rooms. I have enough space to have silencer boxes.
To Vocal Booth it's almost 16m far, to Live Room 19m far. It's possible do it this?

By the way, tomorrow I'll start with the electrical work. I don't have any electricity on basement so this is the first step to be possible work.

[Gregwor]

I don't find any with steel frame, only wood frame, but I found this video:
https://youtu.be/rCWlakmLgpc
It's something like this? It can handle with two or three gypsum board?

This video shows the guy attaching a second ceiling onto existing walls. This is not a decoupled ceiling and will not work for what you need. You need to rest your inner leaf ceiling on top of your inner leaf walls. Your inner leaf walls and ceiling cannot touch your outer leaf anywhere.

For now I don't have money to get a mini slipt system to each room, but in this post (http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewt ... 04&start=0) you said you used a inline fan.

Darren will have a minisplit system (compressor and condenser) but for fresh air he needs something to move the air. If he is okay dumping conditioned air outside of his house he can use a simple inline fan. If he wants to avoid dumping conditioned air outside he can get an HRV. It all depends on his budget. Since the fan would be accessible, he can quite easily upgrade the fan to an HRV in the future.

It's possible to me? How it's works? In the future it's possible to upgrade to a air conditioner system?

If you're running a ductless mini split system your silencer boxes and fan/HRV are kind of independent of your mini split. I'm sure you could easily install a minisplit in the future as long as your minisplit lines will be run in an accessible area. You would have to cut holes in your inner and outer leaf sheathing in order to run the lines so as long as you prepare for it and are aware of what is required to do this then you're fine.

To Vocal Booth it's almost 16m far, to Live Room 19m far. It's possible do it this?

For zoned ductless mini split, you just need to run all of the lines to and from the compressor to each condenser. As for the ducted portion (your fresh and stale air), that isn't too far as long as you design it as such. Calculate your static pressure (check near the top of the stickies in the design forum for a calculator I posted to do this) and as long as the fan in your HRV or your inline fan can operate at the desired CFM under the static pressure imposed by your system, you're good to go!

Greg

[Duarte_Vader]

It's something like this? With the drywall ceiling screwed to this structure? The drywall from ceiling will be in touch with drywall from walls, correct?

Sem Título.png

I found some internet photos. It's very difficult to found with steel framing...

[Soundman2020]

I found some internet photos. It's very difficult to found with steel framing...

Very true! I have only ever done one studio design with steel framing... first and last time. Never again. I just use wood now. Steel has some advantages, yes, but wood is just so much easier.

Is there a reason why you want to do your place with steel framing, rather than wood? It's going to be VERY complicated to frame around those beams that run across your live room, using steel. It won't be simple with wood either, but it will be lot simpler than with steel!

By the way, I noticed that you have not corrected that yet on your SketchUp plans: you really should model that properly, to make sure you don't run into problems when it comes time to build it. Working around structural members like those beams can be tricky, so it pays to have it all worked out in 3D in advance; that way, there are no surprises when you start framing it in real life...

- Stuart -

[Duarte_Vader]

Is there a reason why you want to do your place with steel framing, rather than wood?

Drywall construction is a relatively new in Portugal. Is used more in reforms than in new buildings and always with steel framing. Works with wood is almost a job for a craftsman and is very expensive.
The steel for all the studio will cost about 400€. It's very cheap.
And I will have a help from a professional, for free!

When I began this journey I saw this thread and I was thinking do my studio with the same materials. Could it work for my walls and ceiling?
http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewt ... =2&t=17363

By the way, I noticed that you have not corrected that yet on your SketchUp plans:

I know but at the moment neither the ceiling is solved...

Sorry to be a pain in the ass, but at the moment I've about three months to have my control room ready to rock!

[Soundman2020]

When I began this journey I saw this thread and I was thinking do my studio with the same materials. Could it work for my walls and ceiling?

Ahh yes! The famous and wonderful Beeros thread! I love that thread.

You can certainly use steel framing for the walls, if you want: It does work. It's just not as easy as wood.

The problem will arise at the ceiling: If you want to have steel joists for your ceiling, and you want those to rest on the tops of your inner leaf walls, and you want an inside-out ceiling, then you are going to run into problems with getting the mass continuity to work out: How do you get the drywall on the ceiling and the drywall on the walls to meet? And if you DON'T tie your wall tops together with the ceiling framing, then how do you hold the wall tops in place? They can't just flop around up there, with no lateral support... You would need to add sway braces to keep them in place.

And if you wanted to do your ceiling like Beeros did his, then that MIGHT be possible (assuming that you do use sway braces for your wall tops...)... But.... Do you have a concrete ceiling above your room, like he does? If so, and if you design it correctly, you could use the same type of acoustic isolator to hang your ceiling. But you can't guess here! You would have to get someone to do the math, check the loads on the isolators to make sure that the springs are tensioned just the right amount.

More than that, I can't really help you with steel framing. I never use it, so I don't know it well. I always do wood framing, and I can help you a lot with that! No problem! But I'm not familiar with steel framing, so there's not much more that I can tell you about how to use it for a studio...

And if you DO decide to do steel framing, it's going to be very complicated to frame around those beams! I already said that, but it's worth saying again. You really, really should model all of that in Sketchup, very carefully. And also your HVAC! It' very important to have a full, complete, extensive model that covers every aspect of your studio, BEFORE you start building. You don't have that yet...


- Stuart -

[Duarte_Vader]

After two weeks on the road and back home, I had an opportunity to bring an structural engineer to see my basement.
In his opinion my ceiling don't support the springs and the inner ceiling. The inner ceiling weight of live room+vocal booth will be more than a ton... 3 layers of drywall with 13,2kg/m2 over 27m2.
So, I think my sollution is framming in wood resting the ceiling in inner walls like Greg said. It's more expensive but safe!
I will design again and post new project in wood including HVAC.

[Duarte_Vader]

I did some new tests with my structural engineer and we have some important doubts for you.
We are very concerned about the weight of the ceiling. 3 layers of drywall with 13,2kg/m2 over 27m2.
This is a kind of construction new for us. In Portugal we build everything with concrete and bricks!

So:
The existent ceiling is a concrete slab with 25 cm. With the tests it isolates circa 40 dBC to the above floor. Of course I have vibration.
I really need 3 layers of drywall on the inner ceiling?
My goal is isolate 60dBC.
I think I need to use 3 layers because one of the walls are very thin. Only a 11cm brick. It isolate about 25 dBC. The rest of walls are thick and more important are underground.
Greg said I have to have the same mass on every inner walls and ceilling, but the existent walls and ceiling don't have the same mass.
Can you help us on this? This is my MSM Transmission Loss Calculator with calculation of the 11 cm brickwall.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... 1543869474

[Gregwor]

So, when I said you need to have similar mass on all of the walls, I don't mean you need to have exactly the same mass. What I meant is that you cannot have any wall/ceiling/floor that is less mass than your calculation requires. Imagine a super isolated room and then have a small hole in that wall. The sound will escape through that hole. Having a wall that has less surface density than the rest would result in that wall being your weak link. So in conclusion, your wall/ceiling/floor that has the least amount of surface density will ultimately determine your maximum transmission loss.

Greg