John Sayers' Recording Studio Design Forum Archive

EDIT - I am restarting this thread. This post has the current pictures/ideas of what I am planning.

Dear All,

I am in the process of planning the rebuild of a studio space I have owned for many years. I am a semi-professional audio engineer and producer who is also a recovering attorney. I am finally extricating myself from law and going into music full-time. I have a very cheap space in a commercial building about 30 minutes outside of New York City. It is not the ideal space for a studio, but it is very conveniently located in a great area, and I have had a pretty decent amount of success there. My business is mostly post-production work and creating original music for myself and various commercial and private use clients. I do record bands and other groups, as well, but it is, so far, a smaller part of my business. I can get pretty loud, but I am not a 3 Marshall stacks all the way up kind of guy.

I was working with the wonderful Stuart, but our schedules didn't mesh, so I am striking out on my own, based on his input, what I have read on this site and elsewhere.

About the space:

1. It is on the third floor of an old 1920s office building with 8 inch concrete and steel outer walls and floors/ceilings.

2. I have only one neighbor on the floor, on the other side of what is proposed as my machine room/lounge.

3. The ceilings are ~10 feet high, with three concrete-clad steel support beams that come down to about ~8.75 feet.

4. There is forced air HVAC. The unit is on the other side of the floor from me. I already have the appropriate incoming air baffles in place, and it's just a matter of re-routing the ducts, moving return baffles, etc.

5. The existing construction is all inside-out rooms within a room, with double 5/8" sheetrock on the outside (green glue between layers) and 3.5" rock wool insulation on the inside between 2x4 studs. For the treatment of the walls, I have varying areas of simple burlap covering the insulation along with Helmholtz resonators and diffusion, plus bass trapping in corners. I plan to have the same construction techniques in the rebuilt space (likely re-using a lot of materials.

6. You will note that there are windows is the space. They all face outside and there are no neighbors close to these windows. I currently have four of them in the live room visible with a two-window system. I am willing to listen to suggestions if people think they are a problem, but I really like them.


In any event, screenshots of my current Sketchup model are below, as well as the model itself. The revised layout has a larger control room than I currently have, a modest live room and a smallish iso room (which will need a lot of 703, I am guessing) as well as a small machine room/lounge.

Please bear in mind that I am HORRIBLE at Sketchup, and there may be areas that look like there are parallel, asymmetrical or unconnected walls, etc. Please trust that my building knowledge (and that of my contractors) is better than my Sketchup knowledge. I also put musicians, amps, consoles and couches, etc. in various rooms to indicate their purpose, so I hope it all makes sense.

I am wondering about the following, aside from general comments/criticism:

1. Is the control room big enough?

2. Does the shape of the live room present an issue?

3. Is the iso room just too small? Would it be better just to keep that space open? It will be used mainly for amps that are too loud for the live room. I really like having an iso room.

4. Is having lights (glass) in the doors of the iso room a bad idea? I like that it allows people in the lounge to see into the studio, but I am not sure if reflection issues are worth it.

5. You will see I only have a single leaf between the iso room and the live room, with an acoustic door. Should I go two leaves here?

6. I am planning on using acoustic doors in critical areas, between live room and control room, between live room and outside hallway and on both sides of the iso room. If anyone knows of a good source in the U.S., I would appreciate it.

Thanks in advance for any ideas!

Steve

Link to Sketchup model: https://drive.google.com/open?id=1wlK-2 ... uKt7CGT5B9

Photos:

Hi there "sk806", and Welcome!

I think the best part of your post, is this: "who is also a recovering attorney". It's good to know that the illness is not terminal, and it is possible to recover back to being a normal person again!

OK, more seriously: About your floor system, what you describe is basically a light-weight floating floor, so you might find this interesting: http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewt ... f=2&t=8173

my existing layout provides for a very small control room

Right. That is small. That's about half the recommended minimum size. Your new layout is much better.

The construction is all inside-out rooms within a room, with double sheetrock on the outside (green glue between layers) and 3" rock wool insulation on the inside between 2x4 studs.

... and also insulation in the wall cavities, I hope! In between the two leaves?

I just got frustrated with trying to angle the walls in Layout on a MacBook.

Try "SketchUp"... It's what most forum members use for their designs. It's free, but don't get the version called "SketchUp Free": that's a really lousy web-based app that's no use to anybody. Rather, get the "SketchUp Make 2017" version, which is still free, and much better.

OK, about your control room: I would suggest trying to flip it 180° so that it faces the two iso booths. It looks like there might be conflicts with door locations like that, so you might need to so some major surgery to make that work, but it just makes sense to have your CR facing the booths, with glass in between, for best sight-lines, visual communication, etc. It makes tracking sessions go so much more smoothly. There's also the issue that the rear wall of the control room always needs tons of treatment, so if you leave the room facing the way you have it now, you'd have big problems trying to do that while also keeping those doors.

You did say your drawing isn't to scale and isn't necessarily accurate, so there might be work-arounds to fix that, but I have a feeling that flipping the room and adjusting the door locations would probably be the best solution.

I am particularly worried about the shape and dimensions of the live room in the proposed version, and would welcome input as to its suitability.

It's long and thin! I've seen worse. It can be usable, acoustically, with treatment, but it might not be so practical for bands recording in there.

Have you considered a layout based on the "corner control room" concept?

- Stuart -

Thanks, Stuart. I will definitely look into the corner control idea, as well as flipping the control room 180. Yes, there is insulation in the wall cavities. I’ll check out the other links you posted, as well. Hopefully, I will have a revised layout in sketch up soon. Thanks again!

Steve

I have updated the floorpan to reflect Stuart's comments, above. It is still just a very rough Layout floor plan, as I don't want to dive into Sketchup before I have some idea that I am going in the right direction. In this version, I have the control room facing the existing iso rooms, with doors lined up for line of sight into these rooms. The "live room" (really a big iso room) does not have line of sight from where the console would be, so I likely will use CCTV cameras (which I already have).

Here is a link to the new plan:

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1SO6sd ... rJJUwPXvZ1

So, my questions are:

1. Is this layout generally OK?

2. Should I angle the front walls of the existing iso rooms so that they are parallel to the control room walls, and the same for the wall between the big iso/live room and the control room?

3. Are the placement of the doors at the front of the control room problematic in terms of early reflections, since this layout doesn't allow for soffit mounting?

4. I know I will need to make the big iso/live room into less of a rectangle, any ideas?

5. Anything else?

Thanks in advance for any input.


Steve

Are you a Studio Webware SPAMMER? I AM So I got banned and blocked. Because my life sucks.
If not you can get suggestions from the Studio SPAMware.
Either yes, you have an idea about rebuilding. Studio Designer sis a major player in the space and is used by about as many firms. All the software tracks were associated with costs, including taxes and freight, and reflect changes in real time those allowing a designer to quickly generate client purchasing orders, invoices, and proposals. And it also creates a shared perception to move ahead within a less amount of time.

Uh...I don’t think I’m webware.

Anyway, I’ll assume that’s spam. Thanks again in advance for any input. I want to get started on the Sketchup model, so just need to know if the floor plan looks ok to chase the model on.

Steve

Keep this layout for reference even though I see some obvious mistakes in it. But try drawing a corner control room layout like Stuart suggested. It could result in allowing you to ditch that vocal booth and have a good drum room that isn't so small!

Remember, the back of your control room needs an insane amount of absorption on it (like 2 feet thick). Also, consider soffit mounting your speakers and design the inner room treatment to provide a reflection free listening position. These are all details missing in your current design.

Lastly, you don't need that super deep sound lock in your hallway. You need the same depth as the rest of your design only.

Greg

Thanks, Greg. Working on the SketchUp version of the corner control room now. Will post shortly.



Steve

Hi All,

I have made a Sketchup model of a corner control room design for my studio rebuild. I stink at Sketchup, but hopefully the ideas come across. This model only shows the heavy construction, not the acoustic treatments (resonators, bass traps, etc.) or even the flooring, yet. I had trouble with putting doors and windows through walls, so please assume that things will be properly constructed and not be a patchwork like in the model. Also, I forgot to delete the sheetrock from the bass trap in the back of the control room.

I just want to know what people think about the general layout. I tried to get line-of-sight to all areas, as well as keeping doors from being in each other's way. Any input is greatly appreciated. A screenshot is below, as well as a link to the sketch file. Thanks in advance for any help.

Steve




Link to .skp file: https://drive.google.com/open?id=1SngwL ... 4-VmYz_HQE

I like this idea the best. Try to move some things so that you have room to soffit mount your speakers (you need depth here). Also, remember that the bigger the control room is, the better it will be. That means adding depth to your front wall. Also, you will have to ray trace, but you probably can angle your side walls to maximize your room volume and probably help with your reflection free area around your head.

Here is a corner design that ended up being amazing: Here is the thread for the treatment of that room:
http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewt ... =2&t=21368

Hopefully that helps!

Greg

It does help. Thanks, Greg! I will tinker with the model and see what I can do. I really appreciate the help.

Best,

Steve

OK, so I have reworked the control room to include soffit mounts. I have Focal Twins for my main speakers right now, and they are in the model, but I'm not sure they are good for soffit mounting, so I likely will get something else for the mains. In any event, I have the framing for the control room in the model, and I assume that I will need to add bass trapping (OC 703 hangers?). I have been reading through the Frank's studio thread, as suggested, and it looks a bit daunting, but I am plowing through it.

I realize now that I shouldn't use dynamic components all over the place, as they slow things down in Sketchup, so I'll likely redo the model to make it simpler. Also, it's tough to get everything lined up properly, so the sketch model might not be exact in terms of the actual framing and angles, etc.

My questions right now are:

1. Does the layout of the control room look OK in terms of volume, framing to allow bass trapping, speaker position, etc.?

2. The ceiling of the control room will be inside-out double sheetrock (green glue in between) with rock wool insulation on the inside between the studs. Do I need more absorption there, or is the rock wool enough?

3. Given the room's dimensions, what am I looking at in terms of bass traps and other treatments? Something along the lines of the Frank's studio thread, or can it be simpler? I know this is a big question, so broad strokes is fine.

Any input greatly appreciated.

Steve

OK, so I have reworked the control room to include soffit mounts.

This is looking at lot more usable! You aren't complaining so I'm guessing you're liking the idea too?

I have Focal Twins for my main speakers right now, and they are in the model, but I'm not sure they are good for soffit mounting, so I likely will get something else for the mains.

Those are nice, but they are large width-wise. If you really like those speakers, maybe check the dispersion charts for them to see if you could mount the vertically. If you looks at Franks thread you'll see the boxes he mounted his speakers in. They are probably made out of ~1" MDF. Then there needs to be space around those speaker boxes for thick insulation. I'd suggest researching the dimensions of your biggest dream speakers and build your soffits large enough to accommodate them with boxes around them and insulation around a very strong frame/baffle.

In any event, I have the framing for the control room in the model, and I assume that I will need to add bass trapping (OC 703 hangers?). I have been reading through the Frank's studio thread, as suggested, and it looks a bit daunting, but I am plowing through it.

Maximum bass trapping, yes.

Also, it's tough to get everything lined up properly, so the sketch model might not be exact in terms of the actual framing and angles, etc.

Look into changing your axis on components within Sketchup. It could make all those angled components piece together easier. Also, inferencing in SketchUp is critical for well.... everything. Google it if you don't know about it yet!

1. Does the layout of the control room look OK in terms of volume, framing to allow bass trapping, speaker position, etc.?

Bigger the better. Find space wherever you can! Speaker position, etc. You just need to make sure your RFZ works out well while making sure you have allocated room for bass trapping and other treatment. Stuart designed Franks room and he has mentioned several times that it breaks a lot of rules in terms of the classic 38% from the front wall listening position and things like that. You might want to reach out to him to see if he can provide you with some guidelines to ensure your room kicks butt in the end.

2. The ceiling of the control room will be inside-out double sheetrock (green glue in between) with rock wool insulation on the inside between the studs. Do I need more absorption there, or is the rock wool enough?

As you'll see in Franks thread, it's all about installing one piece of treatment at a time and seeing what you need next. Appropriate type of insulation in the inside out ceiling is for sure going to be great. You just might have to retain some high end or something depending on how your acoustic measurements turn out!

3. Given the room's dimensions, what am I looking at in terms of bass traps and other treatments? Something along the lines of the Frank's studio thread, or can it be simpler? I know this is a big question, so broad strokes is fine.

Stuart is a treatment wizard so yes, you COULD implement some gnarly devices like he designed for Frank, but the basic guidelines for any control room will apply to yours as well (maximum bass trapping being the case here along with a lot of absorption on your back wall). The rear wall is so very critical in your case because your room length looks well below the specified distance to obtain the required Initial Time Delay Gap.

You're doing great and I hope you see the progress WE see in your design. The design is the most important stage of the process so keep working hard on it. It will pay off. Thanks for listening to the advice you've received!

Greg

Thanks for giving the advice! I am perfectly willing to admit that all of this is quite beyond me, but it is fascinating to learn. I will take the time to look through all of your suggestions, and incorporate them into my new model. I will also reach out to Stuart and see what his availability is for design and consulting. I plan to work on the new model a great deal over the next couple of days and will have something up soon-ish. Again, thanks so much for all your help!

Best,

Steve

Hello All,

I completely redid the Sketchup model for my studio rebuild. I went to the space and checked all dimensions and noted some architectural features that I had forgotten about (beams, column, etc.), so this is as close to exact dimensions as I can get. I also, thanks to Greg, I figured out how inferencing works in Sketchup, so everything is lined up "fairly well." This model reflects what I propose to do for the initial framing. I realize that door jack studs, headers, etc. aren't in the model, so please assume the framing will be done properly.

I know this is frowned upon here, but all rooms in the model are on lightly "floated" floors (2x4s with rock wool, two layers of particle board all on neoprene u-boats). I ask about this in my questions, below.



My questions for now are:

1. Should I splay the side walls of the control room (with the doors) further out? Right now they are parallel to the walls of the adjoining rooms.

2. Is the double front wall of the control room an issue? I had two "humps" showing after I added the soffit mount areas, so I put the outer wall in there, as I kind of like the way it looks as you come into the studio. I can hide the humps with cloth if it is an issue.

3. You will notice that the model doesn't have the soffit mounts properly framed. I am reading up on the two popular soffit mount threads, John's and Barefoot's, so I am still learning. Based on what I've read so far, I think might need to make the soffit areas thicker, based on the size of the speakers I plan to use (Neumann KH310s) and the need for the boxes and insulation around them. Any input regarding the space I would need behind, based on these speakers (10H x 15.125W X 11.5D), would be appreciated. I don't think I will go bigger than these speakers in the future, as the room is quite small.

4. I read through the thread regarding floating floors, but I believe, from experience, that they have a huge effect on sound transmission in this particular building. I don't know why, but they apparently do. When I first obtained this space, at the building's owner's insistence, I hired a structural engineer, and he signed off on all weight and code issues assuming floated floors for all rooms. I then built the two of the exact same room (2 roughly 13L x 10W x 8.5H rooms) one with a floated floor and one without, and the difference was quite profound when walking around the building with someone banging on the drums or playing an amp cranked way the hell up. I kept the un-floated one as a lounge and machine room. I am willing to be convinced that this difference will not be achieved with different sized rooms, in different places, etc., but I would like to keep the floors. Am I just plain wrong? Does it matter, if the weight and code aren't issues?

Thank again for all the help.

Steve