Basement Drum Room In Townhouse

[merpmerp]

OK, here goes nothing! First off, it should be in my profile, but just in case, I'm in Emmaus, PA.

I had a townhouse built and asked the builder to frame out a room for me in the basement so I could build a sound reduced drum room.

They did do that, but because it was a framed room, they had to do everything to code.

I didn't know that beforehand. Because of that they added an air conditioning vent and a sprinkler head.

Also, because the other side of the basement had an egress window, they had to build it on the side connected to the neighbor ( I am in an end unit).

The room is 12 x 10 x 8. Below is the blueprint of the basement:

Lot 1 Fin Bsmt ProposedREV 1-5 (4)-page-001.jpg

The room is the space in the bottom right. The builder left a two inch gap between the framed wall and the concrete wall separating the town homes.

The space towards the rear is the sump pump room. That is about 3ft x 10ft. Two feet of that sticks out past the neighbors home. It is a bump with nothing directly to the right of that, if that makes sense.

The wall adjacent to that leads to the finished basement area and the wall between that and the next wall has a storage room with the HVAC in it.

Here are some sketch ups:

full basement 1.jpg

I have some more pictures. To make it easier to explain things and ask questions, I've started with the wall with the door (36") where you would walk in and called that Wall 1 and then went around the room to the right with Wall 2, Wall 3, and Wall 4.

Wall1.png

Wall 1 right side.jpg

wall 1 left side.jpg

Wall2.png

wall 2.jpg

Wall3.png

wall 3.jpg

Wall4.png

wall 4.jpg

room from above.png

ceiling 1.jpg

ceiling 2.jpg

Wall 3 and ceiling left side.jpg

I should mention, I've been with my wife twenty years and we moved from a house with no sound control. My concern is for my neighbors next door.

I gave my neighbor a decibel meter (BAFX 7730, I know, I know) and a walkie talkie and played my acoustics. Where it was about 110 in my room he was showing 65. Then, I played my electronic set and turned it down until he really couldn't hear it and it was 65db in the room.

My goal is to be able to play the acoustics without bothering my neighbor. I should mention, besides the electronic set, I also have RTOM Black Holes to reduce the sound of the acoustics as well as low volume cymbals. Just for the sake of my ears, I would probably be playing them most of the time, but there would be instances when I want to play the acoustics with real cymbals outright.

Also, I occasionally would like to have a guitarist come over and play, but I would most likely be using the electronic in that case just for volume control.

I know the room has many challenges. I guess I'll start with general questions and then with specific questions with each area of the room.

I was going to go with two layers of 5/8 drywall with green glue in between all around the room as well as on the wall in storage/HVAC room and the wall in the sump pump room. I was also going to go with RISC1 clips and resilliant channel.

My question on that was, do the clips actually make a difference? I have a friend in the carpenters union in NYC and he said they use resilliant channel but screw them directly into the studs. He did say they wonder if the resilliant channel is actually doing anything.

Oh, I was also going to use Roxul safe n sound all around.

Wall 1:
Wall 1 is the wall with the door with the finished basement on the other side. You can see there is a chase above along side that wall.

Will a soffit need to be built there? Am I able to put Roxul safe n sound in the framing of the soffit?

There is also a beam and a pole there. The pole is so close to the framing, I don't think resilliant channel would fit there, posibbly not even the sheet rock.

Is it possible to box around that, or should a second wall with a second door be built there? Or could just a second wall be built for that section of the wall but keep the one door?

I do plan on adding a solid core door and would reinforce the door jam if that was going to be the door that was going to be replaced.

There is only one layer of drywall on the basement side.

Wall 2
This wall has the storage area and HVAC on the other side of it. No specific questions but if there is somethng additional you think I should do there that would be great.

Wall 3
This is where I have the most concern. This is the wall between myself and my neighbor. Above the framing there is about a 12" gap between the framing and floor above. I think that is where the sound is going through to them. What, if anything could I do to reinforce that area after the drywall and insulation were up?

Wall 4
This is the wall with the sump pump room behind it. I will be putting a solid core door as well. Is there anything else I should be doing there.

As far as the ceiling is concerned, you can see there is a lot going on there.

Will adding drywall to the space between the joists help reduce sound there?

I had a stuctural engineer look at the ceiling and he said we had 14" joists which make it stronger and I should have no problem adding anything there.

Also, I know the sprinkler head needs to be lowered and I will call the company that installed that to have them do that. I think the drywall shouldn't touch it but it should be calked. Is that correct?

For the air conditioner vent, which I can close, I was going to have my contractor ( I forgot to mention I had a contractor) make a box that would be able to clip onto the celing when I needed it and compress around it with some weather stripping. I would only need to do that if I was playing the acoustics.

Regarding the air conditioning, I know we would have air coming in, but it would have nowhere to go. I was thinking of adding a small vent going out to the HVAC storage area and then having a baffle box there. Is that something that makes sense? Would it be better to cross that later, or take care of it now?

I saw in another post someone mentionng about boxing in the ducts in the ceiling. If I'm more concerned about the neighbors, and not the rest of the house, would I need to do that?

Another thing regarding the ceiling is installing the insulation. The joists are those trusses that have gaps in them. I don't think I would be able to get the insulation to stay up. If we put attached plywood to the sides of the joists and then installed the insulation, would that be alright?

The floor is cement. From what I've read it is best to just leave that. Is that correct?

Regarding the electical boxes, should I put putty around them or move them to the front of the wall using Legrand (I think that's it) outlets? I'm worried there might not be enough extra wire to move them all out.

My budget for this is $2000 but I can push it to $3000 if necessary.

Do you think I'll be able to get where I want to be without desturbing the neighbors?

Thank you for all of your help and for this forum. It's much appreciated.

[merpmerp]

Merpmerp again.

I forgot to add, those ducts going up the wall near the neighbors side have a lot of gaps between the duct and the wall they are going through.

I know those should be filled in, but I don't know what to fill them in with. I'm sure those ducts get hot and I don't want to cause a dangerous condition.

What, if anything, can I use to fill in those gaps?

Thank you

[Soundman2020]

Hi "merpmerp". Welcome!

so I could build a sound reduced drum room.

First things first: How much isolation do you need, in decibels? In other words: get an SPL meter, play your kit hard and fast in that room, measure the level, then go outside and keep walking away from the house until you can0t hear the drums any more. Measure that level. The difference between the two is how much isolation you need, in total.

The room is 12 x 10 x 8. Below is the blueprint of the basement:

OK, but that's before isolation: the final size will be smaller.

The space towards the rear is the sump pump room.

How loud is the pump? Have you tested that? Where does it drain to? That's a potential flanking path. Is the pump mounted on proper isolation mounts?

the wall between that and the next wall has a storage room with the HVAC in it.

Not sure I understand: you have storage inside your wall?
Is that HVAC just for your drum booth, or for the entire house?

Here are some sketch ups:

Nice SketchUp skills!

Where it was about 110 in my room he was showing 65.

Did you have the meter set to "C" weighting and "Slow"? In any case, you are getting around 45 dB of isolation right now, which isn't too bad. But clearly not good enough. Just pulling numbers out of the air here, since there isn't enough information to go on, I would guess that you need another 20 dB of isolation to get the level down to LEGAL levels (check your local noise regulations, to find out what the level is), which might or might not be enough to satisfy your neighbor. So your total isolation would need to be around 65 dB. That's pretty steep! That's getting close to the limit of what can be accomplished in a typical home studio.

... I played my electronic set and turned it down until he really couldn't hear it and it was 65db in the room.

65 in YOUR room, but how loud where he was? That's the key number we need. When you had 65 in your room, what number did he have?

I was going to go with two layers of 5/8 drywall with green glue in between all around the room as well as on the wall in storage/HVAC room and the wall in the sump pump room. I was also going to go with RISC1 clips and resilliant channel.

Why? If you use RSIC clips, then why do you also want resilient channel? As far as I know, that's not a supported or recommended combination, and I would suspect that it is unsafe. RC is meant to be mounted directly to studs, and RSIC clips are meant to be used with hat channel. You can't combine both systems.

In any case, I doubt that is going to be enough to get the level you are probably needing.

I have a friend in the carpenters union in NYC and he said they use resilliant channel but screw them directly into the studs.

Right! Because that's the CORRECT way to use RC! IT was not designed to go on RSIC clips, and I'm not even sure it would fit....

He did say they wonder if the resilliant channel is actually doing anything.

If done CORRECTLY, then it will work, but most drywallers and carpenters don't have a clue how to install it correctly. They install it as though it were hat channel, then wonder why it doesn't work. But even when it does work correctly, it still won't give you the amount of isolation you need. Hat channel on RSIC would be slightly better, but still not enough.

I was also going to use Roxul safe n sound all around.

That's one option, yes. There are others.

Wall 1 is the wall with the door with the finished basement on the other side. You can see there is a chase above along side that wall.

I see an HVAC plenum, but I don't see a chase. Where is the chase? Behind the plenum?

Will a soffit need to be built there?

You have two choices here, neither optimal: 1) Get the plenum moved to where it should have been installed originally, between the truss members (don't you love it when contractors pull stunts like this to save time and money?)... 2) Leave it where it is, and build a soffit around it. #1 costs a lot of money, and takes a lot of time, but allows you to use the entire room with no ugly boxes hanging from the ceiling. #2 is less costly but still not easy to pull off, and DOES leave you with an ugly box hanging from the ceiling, and right where your acoustic treatment should be...

Am I able to put Roxul safe n sound in the framing of the soffit?

It's not a question of whether you CAN, but a question of how much can you get in there without compressing it? Yes, fill that soffit entirely.

There is also a beam and a pole there. The pole is so close to the framing, I don't think resilliant channel would fit there, posibbly not even the sheet rock.

Another reason why you would not be able to use RC, or clips with hat channel. You don't have a lot of options here: you are going to need to re-do this space as a proper "room-within-a-room".

Is it possible to box around that, or should a second wall with a second door be built there? Or could just a second wall be built for that section of the wall but keep the one door?

You need a second wall, but NOT just on that wall: on ALL walls. And since you need two walls, you need two doors.

I do plan on adding a solid core door and would reinforce the door jam if that was going to be the door that was going to be replaced.

Acoustic-rated sliding doors are very expensive. Have you quoted that? When you do, you might change your mind!

There is only one layer of drywall on the basement side.

That will need beefing up. If you have full access to the side where the drywall is, with no obstructions, then add another layer of 5/8" drywall over that, with Green Glue in between (Green Glue is nothing at all like construction glue: it is an acoustics product, and isn't actually glue at all, despite the name.)

This wall has the storage area and HVAC on the other side of it. No specific questions but if there is somethng additional you think I should do there that would be great.

Beef it up. Do the math to see how much extra mass you will need.

Above the framing there is about a 12" gap between the framing and floor above.

Is that the wall that was built "two inches away from the concrete wall"? If so, that's a potential three-leaf system. If that wall is not load-bearing (structural), then I would consider removing it. It's a wast of space, and would make your isolation worse, not better.

Will adding drywall to the space between the joists help reduce sound there?

Probably not, because it looks like there are multiple penetrations going through that floor. It would also be extremely hard to even get up there, with the HVAC plenum and ducts, plus all the other stuff. I suspect that you don't have a lot of choice here, and will need to do a 3-leaf ceiling, which implies that your final visible ceiling is going to be very low. Not so good for drums.

Also, I know the sprinkler head needs to be lowered and I will call the company that installed that to have them do that. I think the drywall shouldn't touch it but it should be calked. Is that correct?

It's not just a matter of lowering it: it also needs to be moved onto a flexible acoustically isolated coupling, so that it cannot transmit sound into the rest of the house.

For the air conditioner vent, which I can close, I was going to have my contractor ( I forgot to mention I had a contractor) make a box that would be able to clip onto the celing when I needed it and compress around it with some weather stripping. I would only need to do that if I was playing the acoustics.

Sorry, but that's not going to work. You need very high isolation, so a little clip-on box is not going to do anything. You need one proper silencer box on the suppl duct, and one on the return duct. This is what typical home-studio silencers look like:

http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewt ... 0&start=45
http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewt ... 9&start=74
http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewt ... 42&start=5
http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewt ... 61&start=0
http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewt ... 5&start=98
http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewt ... &start=157
http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewt ... =2&t=13821
http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewt ... 8&start=44
http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewt ... 2&start=16

Not all of those are done correctly, but they do give you an idea. And those are not really big enough for what you need.

Regarding the air conditioning, I know we would have air coming in, but it would have nowhere to go. I was thinking of adding a small vent going out to the HVAC storage area and then having a baffle box there. Is that something that makes sense? Would it be better to cross that later, or take care of it now?

Your entire HVAC system must be fully completed and tested before you build any part of your studio, because once the studio is in place, you will have no way at all of getting to it.

Yes, you do need a silencer box on the return duct, (not "vent": it's a proper "duct" that you need). Actually, you need two silencer boxes on EACH duct. One where the duct goes through the inner leaf, and one where it goes through the outer leaf. Two ducts, so four silencer boxes.

I saw in another post someone mentionng about boxing in the ducts in the ceiling. If I'm more concerned about the neighbors, and not the rest of the house, would I need to do that?

In order to isolate to the very high levels that you need, your drum booth must be absolutely sealed air.tight, twice over, with very massive, fully decoupled walls around it (and ceiling). With such a structure, even a tiny hole, gap, or crack can greatly reduce the total isolation. The reason is simple: if there is any place where air can get through, then sound can get through too. Your total isolation is only as good as the weakest part. If you build most of the room for 60 dB isolation, except the door, for example, which you only built for 40, then your TOTAL isolation is close to 40.

I don't think I would be able to get the insulation to stay up.

Then use packing straps, canvas straps, wood slats, plastic strips, string, rope, or whatever else you need to hold it in place!

The floor is cement. From what I've read it is best to just leave that. Is that correct?

Regarding the electical boxes, should I put putty around them or move them to the front of the wall using Legrand (I think that's it) outlets? I'm worried there might not be enough extra wire to move them all out.

You can have just ONE single penetration through your wall for the electrical feed, and that has to be done very carefully. Once the power feed gets inside the room, you distribute around to the places where it is needed INSIDE the room, using surface-mount raceways, such as Legrand. Your electrical code might insist that you need a breaker box inside the room as well, with individual circuits for lights, plugs, HVAC, etc. Your electrician can tell you about that, when you get him to come quote you for doing all this extra work (taking out the current system, and re-doing it correctly, within the inner-leaf).

My budget for this is $2000 but I can push it to $3000 if necessary.

I wish I had read that first! You are missing a zero off those numbers. There is no way on this planet that you will get 65 dB isolation for a drum room, on a budget of 3k. Sorry. It's not going to happen. You will have to GREATLY reduce your goals, and warn you neighbor that he's still going to be hearing you, I think. Or increase your budget.

Do you think I'll be able to get where I want to be without desturbing the neighbors?

On a 2k budget? No. On a 15k budget? Maybe. On a 30k budget? Certainly.



You might want to take a look at this thread (below) from a few years back, from a forum member in Greece who also wanted to build a drum room in his basement, just like yours. That thread is an eye opener! Some of it does not apply to you, but the actual techniques and materials he used in the end certainly do. Well worth the read.... He had similar goals to what you do, and he did achieve them in the end:

http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewt ... =2&t=17363


- Stuart -

[merpmerp]

Hi "merpmerp". Welcome!

Thank you Stuart, and thanks for the quick reply!

so I could build a sound reduced drum room.

First things first: How much isolation do you need, in decibels? In other words: get an SPL meter, play your kit hard and fast in that room, measure the level, then go outside and keep walking away from the house until you can0t hear the drums any more. Measure that level. The difference between the two is how much isolation you need, in total.

You will see that I did that below with my neighbor. It really doesn't matter outside. I am on an end unit on a corner. I really don't have anyone close to me except for the attached neighbor. The numbers were 110 in the drum room while he was showing 65.

The room is 12 x 10 x 8. Below is the blueprint of the basement:

OK, but that's before isolation: the final size will be smaller.

Yes, I realize that.

How loud is the pump? Have you tested that? Where does it drain to? That's a potential flanking path. Is the pump mounted on proper isolation mounts?

I think I've heard the pump once in the year that we've been here. I don't think it goes off much. It drains out back about 12 ft. No, I don't think it's mounted on isolation mounts.

the wall between that and the next wall has a storage room with the HVAC in it.

]Not sure I understand: you have storage inside your wall? Is that HVAC just for your drum booth, or for the entire house?

I should have been more clear. Wall 2 has the storage/HVAC room on the opposite side of it. The HVAC is for the whole house.

Nice SketchUp skills!

Wish I could take credit, I paid someone on Fiverr.

Did you have the meter set to "C" weighting and "Slow"? In any case, you are getting around 45 dB of isolation right now, which isn't too bad. But clearly not good enough. Just pulling numbers out of the air here, since there isn't enough information to go on, I would guess that you need another 20 dB of isolation to get the level down to LEGAL levels (check your local noise regulations, to find out what the level is), which might or might not be enough to satisfy your neighbor. So your total isolation would need to be around 65 dB. That's pretty steep! That's getting close to the limit of what can be accomplished in a typical home studio.

Can we just stick with just needing 45 db of isolation. I don't need to worry about any legal issues and the neighbor is actually a nice guy that doesn't complain, but I don't want them to have to hear anything if they don't have to.

... I played my electronic set and turned it down until he really couldn't hear it and it was 65db in the room.

65 in YOUR room, but how loud where he was? That's the key number we need. When you had 65 in your room, what number did he have?

Well, he didn't have the meter at the time. Basically, it was when he couldn't hear it anymore. So, when I was 65, I guess you can say he was zero.

I was going to go with two layers of 5/8 drywall with green glue in between all around the room as well as on the wall in storage/HVAC room and the wall in the sump pump room. I was also going to go with RISC1 clips and resilliant channel.

Why? If you use RSIC clips, then why do you also want resilient channel? As far as I know, that's not a supported or recommended combination, and I would suspect that it is unsafe. RC is meant to be mounted directly to studs, and RSIC clips are meant to be used with hat channel. You can't combine both systems.

In any case, I doubt that is going to be enough to get the level you are probably needing.

Sorry about that, yes, I mixed up what I read in the Gervais book. I was going to go with RISC1 clips and hat channel.

I was also going to use Roxul safe n sound all around.

That's one option, yes. There are others.

Would that be OK or would you recommend something different.

Wall 1 is the wall with the door with the finished basement on the other side. You can see there is a chase above along side that wall.

I see an HVAC plenum, but I don't see a chase. Where is the chase? Behind the plenum?

Yes, sorry, that is a plenum.

Will a soffit need to be built there?

You have two choices here, neither optimal: 1) Get the plenum moved to where it should have been installed originally, between the truss members (don't you love it when contractors pull stunts like this to save time and money?)... 2) Leave it where it is, and build a soffit around it. #1 costs a lot of money, and takes a lot of time, but allows you to use the entire room with no ugly boxes hanging from the ceiling. #2 is less costly but still not easy to pull off, and DOES leave you with an ugly box hanging from the ceiling, and right where your acoustic treatment should be...

I'll have to go with #2. If the HVAC is in the other room and the soffit runs perpendicular to the soffit, how would they run it between the truss members?

[/uote]Am I able to put Roxul safe n sound in the framing of the soffit?

It's not a question of whether you CAN, but a question of how much can you get in there without compressing it? Yes, fill that soffit entirely.

[/quote]

OK

There is also a beam and a pole there. The pole is so close to the framing, I don't think resilliant channel would fit there, possibly not even the sheet rock.

Another reason why you would not be able to use RC, or clips with hat channel. You don't have a lot of options here: you are going to need to re-do this space as a proper "room-within-a-room".

I was under the impression that this already a room within a room with the framing against the concrete wall, the space in the sump pump room, the space in the HVAC room, and the space in the basement.

Is it possible to box around that, or should a second wall with a second door be built there? Or could just a second wall be built for that section of the wall but keep the one door?

You need a second wall, but NOT just on that wall: on ALL walls. And since you need two walls, you need two doors.

I do plan on adding a solid core door and would reinforce the door jam if that was going to be the door that was going to be replaced.

Acoustic-rated sliding doors are very expensive. Have you quoted that? When you do, you might change your mind!

I think you might have misread that. I was referring to a solid core door, not a sliding door.

There is only one layer of drywall on the basement side.

That will need beefing up. If you have full access to the side where the drywall is, with no obstructions, then add another layer of 5/8" drywall over that, with Green Glue in between (Green Glue is nothing at all like construction glue: it is an acoustics product, and isn't actually glue at all, despite the name.)

Yes, I have access to that.

This wall has the storage area and HVAC on the other side of it. No specific questions but if there is somethng additional you think I should do there that would be great.

Beef it up. Do the math to see how much extra mass you will need.[/quote]

Above the framing there is about a 12" gap between the framing and floor above.

Is that the wall that was built "two inches away from the concrete wall"? If so, that's a potential three-leaf system. If that wall is not load-bearing (structural), then I would consider removing it. It's a wast of space, and would make your isolation worse, not better.

OK, if that frame was used to isolate the ceiling, wouldn't that still be just a two leaf system (I'll elaborate below).

Will adding drywall to the space between the joists help reduce sound there?

Probably not, because it looks like there are multiple penetrations going through that floor. It would also be extremely hard to even get up there, with the HVAC plenum and ducts, plus all the other stuff. I suspect that you don't have a lot of choice here, and will need to do a 3-leaf ceiling, which implies that your final visible ceiling is going to be very low. Not so good for drums.

Also, I know the sprinkler head needs to be lowered and I will call the company that installed that to have them do that. I think the drywall shouldn't touch it but it should be calked. Is that correct?

It's not just a matter of lowering it: it also needs to be moved onto a flexible acoustically isolated coupling, so that it cannot transmit sound into the rest of the house.

Can you show an example of that?

For the air conditioner vent, which I can close, I was going to have my contractor ( I forgot to mention I had a contractor) make a box that would be able to clip onto the celing when I needed it and compress around it with some weather stripping. I would only need to do that if I was playing the acoustics.

Sorry, but that's not going to work. You need very high isolation, so a little clip-on box is not going to do anything. You need one proper silencer box on the suppl duct, and one on the return duct. This is what typical home-studio silencers look like:

http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewt ... 0&start=45
http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewt ... 9&start=74
http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewt ... 42&start=5
http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewt ... 61&start=0
http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewt ... 5&start=98
http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewt ... &start=157
http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewt ... =2&t=13821
http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewt ... 8&start=44
http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewt ... 2&start=16

Not all of those are done correctly, but they do give you an idea. And those are not really big enough for what you need.

Regarding the air conditioning, I know we would have air coming in, but it would have nowhere to go. I was thinking of adding a small vent going out to the HVAC storage area and then having a baffle box there. Is that something that makes sense? Would it be better to cross that later, or take care of it now?

Your entire HVAC system must be fully completed and tested before you build any part of your studio, because once the studio is in place, you will have no way at all of getting to it.

Yes, you do need a silencer box on the return duct, (not "vent": it's a proper "duct" that you need). Actually, you need two silencer boxes on EACH duct. One where the duct goes through the inner leaf, and one where it goes through the outer leaf. Two ducts, so four silencer boxes.

OK, we can do that. I should mention, I was only talking about cutting off the a/c coming out when/if I was playing the acoustics. I figured cover it up with a box with green glue and insulation with the vent closed and it would be ok. I could always open the door after a certain period of time.

I saw in another post someone mentionng about boxing in the ducts in the ceiling. If I'm more concerned about the neighbors, and not the rest of the house, would I need to do that?

In order to isolate to the very high levels that you need, your drum booth must be absolutely sealed air-tight, twice over, with very massive, fully decoupled walls around it (and ceiling). With such a structure, even a tiny hole, gap, or crack can greatly reduce the total isolation. The reason is simple: if there is any place where air can get through, then sound can get through too. Your total isolation is only as good as the weakest part. If you build most of the room for 60 dB isolation, except the door, for example, which you only built for 40, then your TOTAL isolation is close to 40.

[/quote]

I don't think I would be able to get the insulation to stay up.

Then use packing straps, canvas straps, wood slats, plastic strips, string, rope, or whatever else you need to hold it in place!

Would putting the plywood on the trusses be an option? That was my idea. My contractor is pretty smart, I'm sure he'll take something that you said and do that.

Regarding the electical boxes, should I put putty around them or move them to the front of the wall using Legrand (I think that's it) outlets? I'm worried there might not be enough extra wire to move them all out.

You can have just ONE single penetration through your wall for the electrical feed, and that has to be done very carefully. Once the power feed gets inside the room, you distribute around to the places where it is needed INSIDE the room, using surface-mount raceways, such as Legrand. Your electrical code might insist that you need a breaker box inside the room as well, with individual circuits for lights, plugs, HVAC, etc. Your electrician can tell you about that, when you get him to come quote you for doing all this extra work (taking out the current system, and re-doing it correctly, within the inner-leaf).

Luckily my step son is a licensed electrician!

My budget for this is $2000 but I can push it to $3000 if necessary.

I wish I had read that first! You are missing a zero off those numbers. There is no way on this planet that you will get 65 dB isolation for a drum room, on a budget of 3k. Sorry. It's not going to happen. You will have to GREATLY reduce your goals, and warn you neighbor that he's still going to be hearing you, I think. Or increase your budget.[/quote][/quote]

Do you think I'll be able to get where I want to be without disturbing the neighbors? On a 2k budget?

No. On a 15k budget? Maybe. On a 30k budget? Certainly.

You might want to take a look at this thread (below) from a few years back, from a forum member in Greece who also wanted to build a drum room in his basement, just like yours. That thread is an eye opener! Some of it does not apply to you, but the actual techniques and materials he used in the end certainly do. Well worth the read.... He had similar goals to what you do, and he did achieve them in the end:

Yes, I did read it last year and I read it again. Hey at least I'm not talking about a floating floor!

http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewt ... =2&t=17363




Stuart, I think I've responded to your comments (I'm not too good with the quoting, hopefully you were able to follow), now I'll add some additional thoughts.

OK, I don't think I have it as bad as Spiro in the example you gave. As I mentioned above, I was at 110 when my neighbor was at 65. You did say "In any case, you are getting around 45 dB of isolation right now, which isn't too bad." I want to give you some information about my town house.

It was only built last year and it is very efficient as far as energy (gas and electric) is concerned. It has also been very good soundwise between the neighbors. We don't know when they're home and they don't know when we're home. We were worried they could here our TV and/or the dogs barking when we're not home. It turns out they don't hear anything. My neighbor was concerned we would hear their TV as his wife plays it very loud and we don't. I went outside one night and I could hear their TV in the front of the house, but when I went back inside I didn't hear anything.

When my wife is on the treadmill in the finished basement part she has the TV up loud and it hasn't been an issue.

But OK, let me accept the fact that I can't play the acoustics. Right now I have been playing the electronic set with headphones. The electronic are full sized acoustic drums that I converted to electronic so I at least get the same muscle movements. I have had a guitar player come over, I moved the electronic set to the basement part with an amp and we played about as loud as the television when my wife is on the treadmill and there were no issues with the neighbor.

I would like to at least be able to do that in the drum room ( play the electronic set with the amp and have a guitarist be able to play). I also mentioned the low volume pads (RTOMS) I have along with the low volume cymbals without disturbing the neighbors.

I think doing what I was planning on doing will at least help in that respect. Do you think that would be the case? Also, I think I could probably save about $500 by just going with the resilient channel and not using the clips. Since I mentioned the low volume playing I'll most likely be doing would that be ok, or would you suggest going for the additional db reduction?

Oh, when I said $2K to $3K, I was just referring to parts, not labor. My contractor is very reasonable and as I mentioned, my step son is an electrician.

Thanks again for all of your help!

[merpmerp]

Foundation.jpg

Stuart,

I have attached a couple of pictures. I wanted to show the foundation so you see the cement for both townhomes and the little space in between them (that is the real issue, I think).

Also, I took a close up of a duct going upstairs. What can I put in that little space between the duct and the ceiling/floor that would be safe?

Thank you,

Mark

Foundation.jpg

Duct.jpg

[Gregwor]

If done CORRECTLY, then it will work, but most drywallers and carpenters don't have a clue how to install it correctly.

Exactly. One drywall screw going too deep near the framing and it's game over.

Hat channel on RSIC would be slightly better, but still not enough.

For the level of isolation you need, there's no way you're going to achieve it without doing a complete room in a room construction. It would be crazy to spend ANY money building a purpose built room that fails to isolate enough in the end. And you can't just add another layer of this or that to make it better later.

I was also going to use Roxul safe n sound all around.

You could save some money and use Owens Corning or Johns Manville R-24 insulation instead of Safe n Sound. Both are roughly the correct density. The Fibreglass is easy to literally just grab and rip to the correct thickness. Plus it's easy to cut. Just make sure you wear safety equipment when working with it. There was about 3 minutes I was working with it recently without safety glasses on -- I've been to eye specialists and my eye ball is scratched up badly and doesn't seem to be healing. It's causing a lot of pain when I close my eyes. Be safe out there!

Will a soffit need to be built there?

Anywhere there is shared mechanical (water lines, duct work, gas lines) you need to box it in. The box must have at least the same surface density as the rest of your walls. Typically, MDF is easy to work with and to achieve the same surface density as other materials such as OSB or drywall, MDF is thinner. You see though, your trunk is hanging so low that there is no way to frame up a soffit/box to cover it up and still be able to have your door as tall as it is. In my opinion, the only way you can make this work is to move that trunk up into the truss.

I'll have to go with #2. If the HVAC is in the other room and the soffit runs perpendicular to the soffit, how would they run it between the truss members?

The trunk can be routed up into the truss and can be run as round duct. If the truss prevents you from having the correct cross sectional area you require in a single run, you can run two ducts in parallel.

Am I able to put Roxul safe n sound in the framing of the soffit?

You need to do your best to completely fill any cavities with insulation. This is very important.

There is also a beam and a pole there. The pole is so close to the framing, I don't think resilliant channel would fit there, possibly not even the sheet rock.

RC won't give you the isolation you need so I'm not even going to address this question as it doesn't pertain to a game plan that will work for you.

You don't have a lot of options here: you are going to need to re-do this space as a proper "room-within-a-room".

Stuart nailed it here... obviously. He's the boss.

I was under the impression that this already a room within a room with the framing against the concrete wall, the space in the sump pump room, the space in the HVAC room, and the space in the basement.

Unfortunately it is not. A room in a room only shares the floor with it's surrounding structure. Furthermore, it's outer leaf needs to be completely sealed. Also, the inner leaf needs to be completely sealed. Any penetrations to or from either leaf needs to be sealed and decoupled. Yours is just a partitioned room in a basement no different than a regular bedroom. What you need to do is treat your existing room as your outer leaf. Seal and box off any mechanical. Then, build a room in there with it's own ceiling, walls and doors. Also, you need to get fresh air in a stale air out without that duct work passing sound in or out of your room. This is achieved with silencer boxes joined to one another (the outer leaf silencer to your inner leaf silencer) with a flexible connection. Flex duct works here.

Is it possible to box around that, or should a second wall with a second door be built there? Or could just a second wall be built for that section of the wall but keep the one door?

See my last comment.

do plan on adding a solid core door and would reinforce the door jam if that was going to be the door that was going to be replaced.

You need two doors. One for your outer leaf and one for your inner leaf. Typically a solid core door is beefed up by adding two smaller dimensioned sheets of MDF to it. This adds the required mass and the "steps" to allow two seals like a bank vault to exist.

There is only one layer of drywall on the basement side.

And probably it is ultralight 1/2" drywall because that's what contractors typically use these days. Unfortunately ultralight drywall is almost exactly half the weight of old school fire core drywall. Isolation is achieved by two main things: mass and a decoupled air gap. That's it. So, as you can see, thick heavy drywall is needed. Since you have easy access to the other side of the drywall in your basement, you'd be best off to rip off the drywall and put up two sheets of fire core 5/8" drywall with green glue between them. Be sure to apply sealant to the studs before you put up the first layer of drywall. Seal all seams, then put Green Glue Compound on and put the second layer up. You can mud and paint that one. If your calculations show you need more mass than two layers of drywall, then add a third or whatever else you need to get your required mass.

I'm not too good with the quoting, hopefully you were able to follow)

It's pretty easy. Highlight and copy (cmd+C or control+C) whatever text you want to quote. Then hit the quote button at the top of the reply window and then hit paste (cmd+V or control+V).

You can always hit the preview instead of submit button at the bottom of the reply window to see if you screwed any quoting up. Fix it up before you hit submit.

It was only built last year and it is very efficient as far as energy (gas and electric) is concerned.

I with this mattered in regards to sound isolation but it really doesn't at all. Referring to what I wrote above, mass and decoupled space between inner and outer leaf is all that matters... along with a good seal of course.

It has also been very good soundwise between the neighbors. We don't know when they're home and they don't know when we're home. We were worried they could here our TV and/or the dogs barking when we're not home. It turns out they don't hear anything. My neighbor was concerned we would hear their TV as his wife plays it very loud and we don't. I went outside one night and I could hear their TV in the front of the house, but when I went back inside I didn't hear anything.

When my wife is on the treadmill in the finished basement part she has the TV up loud and it hasn't been an issue.

None of the things you mentioned have low frequency information such as kick drum or bass guitar. Those are the frequencies that will get through the thickest and heaviest of walls. Think about when a car drives by with a big stereo system. You can't hear cymbals. You only hear the subs.

I think doing what I was planning on doing will at least help in that respect. Do you think that would be the case? Also, I think I could probably save about $500 by just going with the resilient channel and not using the clips. Since I mentioned the low volume playing I'll most likely be doing would that be ok, or would you suggest going for the additional db reduction?

Since RC still has a mechanical connection, low problematic frequencies are not isolated much at all. That's why we are telling you that this will not give you the isolation you require. Yes, RC and the like will help with television isolation because those little speakers in TV's don't reproduce low frequencies much. But drums and guitar that isn't high pass filtered are a different story.

Oh, when I said $2K to $3K, I was just referring to parts, not labor. My contractor is very reasonable and as I mentioned, my step son is an electrician.

I still don't think this is enough money for parts. Maybe play your electric kit and tell the guitar player to buy a digital amp (Kemper, Axefx, Helix) and jam with headphones until you save a bunch more money.

I don't want to be the bad guy here. We only want to help you NOT waste money!

Greg

[merpmerp]

Greg,
Thanks for the information. Don't worry, you're not the bad guy!

It's not a matter of money, it's convincing the wife. Also, I have to look at as will it be practical to play the acoustics in a room that size.

It looks like I have two options:

Option 1 - Acoustic Drums

Do the room within a room.

With this option, I don't see how it is going to be so much more money when all we're really doing is adding wood (forgetting the duct work issue right now).

I understand the issue with the second door being smaller. I knew that when I first saw the builder finish with construction. I can duck if I have to so no problem there. There are four ducts coming out of that plenum and going upstairs. There's no way I'm going to be able to move that around ( I mean, yes, I know it's possible, but I can tell you it's not going to happen).

But OK, let's say we at least frame out four new walls. Can you let me know what would be doing for the ceiling? Would I be creating a completely new ceiling not even touching the current ceiling, or would that ceiling still involved?

Option 2 - Using the electronic set and the acoustic set with low volume cymbals and pads (RTOMS)

There's still noise here from hitting the pads but it's reduced dramatically, but when I played double bass on the acoustic set with a Remo silent stroke pad I asked the neighbor if he could hear it. This was before I had the decibel meter. He said it sounded like a washing machines spin cycle and rated it a 3 out of 10 on his side.

OK, I still want to finish the room though.

Are you saying, in this instance, that there is no difference between just slapping on one layer of drywall compared to adding insulation possibly RC and two layers of drywall with green glue in between?

If not, and remember this is just for option two, what about framing out the interior room, having the A/C vent come into it and then adding a vent out, plus moving the electrical into it?

Thank you.

PS John Manville is what the builder used. They put R13 on the walls in that room. I'll take that down and replace it, but since I have it, would it be good to add it just to supplement instead of just throwing it away?

[Gregwor]

With this option, I don't see how it is going to be so much more money when all we're really doing is adding wood (forgetting the duct work issue right now).

The ceiling joists are quite expensive as you probably can't just use dimensional 2x6's from your local hardware store (maybe you can -- you have to ask a structural engineer). Typically you need to use LVL studs. With those studs, to maintain the maximum height and achieve the best acoustics, you should build your ceiling inside out. That means more framing material (regular 2x4's) to frame up the modules.

Now, you're right that the cost of iso clips and hat channel versus the extra wood required would probably be equal to one another. And that is why it's so much smarter to just do the room in a room construction. The only real price difference would be adding a second door and 2 more silencer boxes.

The doors aren't too much money though. You can usually find a solid core door slab (without holes in it) for around $100 US. Then the MDF to beef it up would also be a lot less than $100. You can get crazy good seals (like 4731) and do a door for like $50. After that, you can find knock off super heavy duty hinges for like $20. An automatic door closer for around $100. The wood to build a jamb is pretty cheap. The only other thing would be an automatic door bottom and that can also run around $100. So for around $400 you can have a crazy awesome door.

Can you let me know what would be doing for the ceiling? Would I be creating a completely new ceiling not even touching the current ceiling, or would that ceiling still involved?

Let's assume you can use 25 1/2" on center joist spacing (that will allow you to fit 24" wide material between). Using 2x8 LVL stud with say a 1 1/2" gap between the existing joists and your new ceiling, that will put your ceiling 1 1/2" + 7 1/4" = 8 3/4" lower than it is now (visually). Acoustically, your ceiling is likely to be only 1 1/2" + say 1/2" OSB + two layers of 5/8" drywall = 3 1/4" lower than it is right now.. which is amazing.

So, you'd build your inner room walls 8 3/4" lower than the existing floor joists. Then, you'd put your 2x8" LVL on top of those walls. Then you'd slide your 24" wide modules up in between the LVL. If you use the search feature on the forum and type inside out ceiling you'll probably see a lot of pictures of this.

The new ceiling is not involved at all. It cannot be. The ONLY spot this inner room (walls and ceiling) touch anything is the concrete floor.

Are you saying, in this instance, that there is no difference between just slapping on one layer of drywall compared to adding insulation possibly RC and two layers of drywall with green glue in between?

Certainly there will be an improvement. But I wouldn't say a huge improvement. Maybe (I'm not promising anything here) if you were to add the insulation ISO CLIPS AND HAT CHANNEL, proper sealing everywhere and two layers of fire rated 5/8" drywall with green glue in between, your neighbor might say your silent stroke pad double bass playing would bother him 1 out of 10 instead of 3 out of 10.

If not, and remember this is just for option two, what about framing out the interior room, having the A/C vent come into it and then adding a vent out, plus moving the electrical into it?

If you want any improvement in isolation, you need silencer boxes on your duct work. Think of it this way: you like to sing as loud as you can in your car with the windows down and you don't want people to hear you do it. So you suggest getting thicker windows and steel on your car. Heck, you suggest even filling your doors with insulation! If you don't roll your windows up, it won't change anything, will it? So, right now in your real life situation, having your duct work the way it is is no different than having your windows rolled down. You need to stop the sound from going through your duct work.

PS John Manville is what the builder used. They put R13 on the walls in that room. I'll take that down and replace it, but since I have it, would it be good to add it just to supplement instead of just throwing it away?

Call Johns Manville and ask them what the density of their R13 is. It is their white fluffy fibreglass?

Greg

[merpmerp]

Greg,

Thanks for all of the information. I am going to have my contractor take a look at everything as I'm sure he understands a lot more the items you're referring to.

I did pull up a thread on the inside out ceiling:

https://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/view ... ng#p148527

I understand the concept, but I don't understand how, after building everything on the floor you would get it up on the four walls? That looks like it would be a lot of weight.

I have a few additional questions:

1. I'm not sure where you are considering starting this parallel to Wall 1 (that's where the door is as well as the plenum). Would it be starting a few inches in with just a low ceiling and lower door, or further in to avoid the whole plenum, low door situation? I worry about the room being too narrow if it is moved in past the plenum.

2. Stuart said to take down the framing on Wall 3 (the cement wall) because it would lead to a three leaf system. If we did not, how would we put up the insulation on that wall, or would it not matter because it is cement?

3. Wall 4 has a doorway leading to the sump pump. I guess I would need a door on that side too. Or, if on the second question we were starting Wall 1 further in, I guess we could walk around the inner room to get inside, but again, that is losing a lot of space.

Also, the insulation is not the white puffy kind. You can see it in the pictures.

Thanks again for your help!

[Gregwor]

Thanks for all of the information. I am going to have my contractor take a look at everything as I'm sure he understands a lot more the items you're referring to.

I would highly recommend you study as much you can and ask us as many questions as it takes to fully understand the concepts. I've personally dealt with lots of contractors who say they understand the end goal and the steps to get there, but then they screw up the most obvious things. You need to understand all of this so that you can oversee the build and know what to look for to ensure there are no screw ups!

I understand the concept, but I don't understand how, after building everything on the floor you would get it up on the four walls? That looks like it would be a lot of weight.

Build the walls, anchor them together and seal the crap out of them. Then raise your joists and set them on top of your walls. Screw and seal them. Then put your rim board up. Screw and seal it. Build your modules on the ground. Lift one at a time into place and screw/seal them. I'd recommend designing and building the modules such that you can do the perimeter modules first and the center of the room modules last. That will allow you to get modules to slide up and in over top of the wall top plates.

A drywall lift sure would help get the modules up into place as they will be pretty heavy with all of that sheathing on them!

1. I'm not sure where you are considering starting this parallel to Wall 1 (that's where the door is as well as the plenum). Would it be starting a few inches in with just a low ceiling and lower door, or further in to avoid the whole plenum, low door situation? I worry about the room being too narrow if it is moved in past the plenum.

You need at least 1" between the outer leaf framing and your inner leaf wall. I'd recommend you build your entire inner leaf inside out. That will save you the most space in the end! So, between the outer leaf framing and your inner leaf drywall, leave 1".

If you don't move that plenum, I'm afraid that the door will be very short! The ceiling can raise up where there is no mechanical hanging below.

Also, remember, you will have to box in that plenum with 1" MDF as well. So the inside out ceiling will have to be 1" below that plenum box!

2. Stuart said to take down the framing on Wall 3 (the cement wall) because it would lead to a three leaf system. If we did not, how would we put up the insulation on that wall, or would it not matter because it is cement?

Depending on how much space is between the foundation and the wall, your options will change. You need insulation there, yes. So, you could tear that part of the frost wall down, put insulation up and then frame up an inside out wall to stand there. That would be your inner leaf wall. So, again doing this will give you a bigger room!

3. Wall 4 has a doorway leading to the sump pump. I guess I would need a door on that side too. Or, if on the second question we were starting Wall 1 further in, I guess we could walk around the inner room to get inside, but again, that is losing a lot of space.

Yeah, you'd need 2 doors to get into that room as well. If you can afford to lose storage space, you could try and make that sump pump room smaller and open up the space for your studio room!

Greg

[merpmerp]

I would highly recommend you study as much you can and ask us as many questions as it takes to fully understand the concepts. I've personally dealt with lots of contractors who say they understand the end goal and the steps to get there, but then they screw up the most obvious things. You need to understand all of this so that you can oversee the build and know what to look for to ensure there are no screw ups!

OK, I will do that.

That will allow you to get modules to slide up and in over top of the wall top plates.

I'm assuming this would be from inside the new room as there would be no room to do it from the outside. Is that correct?

So, you could tear that part of the frost wall down, put insulation up and then frame up an inside out wall to stand there. That would be your inner leaf wall.

How does the insulation stay up with no framing?

You said you would build the whole inner leaf from the inside out. That sounds like the inside wouldn't have walls, it would have insulation. Is that correct? I don't think so, but that is what I'm picturing with you saying that.

Doing it this way, does this mean I wouldn't use clips and hat channel, or no RC channel at all?

Regarding the unfinished ceiling in the outer room, what would I be doing there?


Thank you

[Gregwor]

I'm assuming this would be from inside the new room as there would be no room to do it from the outside. Is that correct?

How does the insulation stay up with no framing?

You could tie it to the back side of the inside out wall as you stand it up. You could use lag bolts with fender washers to hold it up.

Maybe some one else has some ideas for that?

You said you would build the whole inner leaf from the inside out. That sounds like the inside wouldn't have walls, it would have insulation. Is that correct? I don't think so, but that is what I'm picturing with you saying that.

That's correct. Or maybe you just want empty stud bays depending on how you want to acoustically treat it.

Doing it this way, does this mean I wouldn't use clips and hat channel, or no RC channel at all?

Just drywall on studs. Nothing special.

Regarding the unfinished ceiling in the outer room, what would I be doing there?

For a great acoustic environment, you want a hard floor and a soft ceiling. So, you'd fill the entire ceiling with insulation. In some situations you may want to bring back some high frequency content at which point you would cover some areas of the insulation with something like plastic. But in a small room there's a good chance it will just remain insulation.

Greg

[merpmerp]

You could tie it to the back side of the inside out wall as you stand it up. You could use lag bolts with fender washers to hold it up.

Maybe some one else has some ideas for that?

I'm sure my contractor will know. I say contractor because that is what I see on here, but he pretty much does everything and is very knowledgeable. He is a friend as well. He knows what I want to do. When I first showed him the room a year ago and mentioned getting a solid core door to replace the current one, he mentioned strengthening the door jam.

When I said everything needs to be airtight, he asked about the A/C and said we have air coming in but no way for it to get out so he is aware of these things.

That's correct. Or maybe you just want empty stud bays depending on how you want to acoustically treat it.

I'm really tired of looking at the studs and insulation as it is now. Maybe I lose a little space and don't build the walls inside out. Building it inside out, wouldn't that leave drywall facing the insulation on the outer leaf. I thought it was best to have the two layers of insulation facing each other?

Just drywall on studs. Nothing special.

With the green glue in between?

For a great acoustic environment, you want a hard floor and a soft ceiling. So, you'd fill the entire ceiling with insulation. In some situations you may want to bring back some high frequency content at which point you would cover some areas of the insulation with something like plastic. But in a small room there's a good chance it will just remain insulation.

We're talking about the current ceiling that is there now, correct? I'm more concerned about the sound traveling than the acoustic environment right now.

Regarding the A/C vent, where would the silencer box go, on top of the inner room ceiling or in the inner room? How much space is that going to need and will that effect the height?

Also, regarding the sprinkler head, can I leave that on the outside and not worry about it?

Thank you

[Gregwor]

I'm sure my contractor will know. I say contractor because that is what I see on here, but he pretty much does everything and is very knowledgeable. He is a friend as well. He knows what I want to do. When I first showed him the room a year ago and mentioned getting a solid core door to replace the current one, he mentioned strengthening the door jam.

When I said everything needs to be airtight, he asked about the A/C and said we have air coming in but no way for it to get out so he is aware of these things.

The things he pointed out are common construction details. If he knew anything about building studios he would have talked about the mass of the door, the through-hole handle, an automatic door closer, and automatic door bottom and seals. Regarding the A/C, he would have mentioned insertion loss, CFM, air velocity, latent and sensible loads along with the concerns of the other exposed mechanical trashing your isolation.

I'm not trying to talk down your friend and overwhelm you with the details. I'm being realistic and point out the importance of having your 3D model complete before you start building your room. I'm also pointing out that even though he tells you that he will do something that will work, it very well may in a typical home, but this is a studio room and in order for it to succeed, it must break the standard construction rules and go above and beyond. Going above and beyond is for safety and unfortunately if you cut one corner, all of your hard work goes down the toilet.

The transmission loss part of the build is pretty straight forward - don't have any leaks. Seal everything. Maintain your mass. Put insulation and mass around anything that could transmit your sound to your outer leaf. That is any mechanical stuff. Windows and doors need to match or beat your wall and ceiling mass. They need to be sealed like crazy.

The insertion loss part of the build is more difficult. You need to custom design and build silencer boxes. Along with the silencer box design comes the HVAC design. If you want a functioning recording room, you need low velocity air flow. If you just want a jam room and don't care about the wind and turbulence, then you can ignore the velocity factor. But no matter what, you need to make sure you stay alive with the correct amount of fresh air. You also need to make sure you don't sweat or freeze to death. That's where your latent and sensible calculations come into play. Finding the spots for your silencer boxes determines the dimensions and overall designs of the boxes.

I'm really tired of looking at the studs and insulation as it is now. Maybe I lose a little space and don't build the walls inside out. Building it inside out, wouldn't that leave drywall facing the insulation on the outer leaf. I thought it was best to have the two layers of insulation facing each other?

Inside out would mean that the drywall would be touching the insulation between your inner leaf and outer leaf. One or two layers of insulation doesn't matter. What matters is how thick the gap filled with insulation is. That along with the surface density of your drywall are the only two parts of the MSM equation that determine the amount of isolation you will achieve.

I'm sick of looking at my unfinished studio too. Use that frustration to drive you to finish your build. Once it's done, you can have beautiful looking fabric and wood or whatever you want on the walls. The key to a usable room is one that sounds great AND provides the isolation you need in order to play music in it.

With the green glue in between?

If you visit Green Glue's website, you can see how to properly use the material. It is applied between your layers of drywall.

We're talking about the current ceiling that is there now, correct?

No, I'm referring to your inner leaf inside out ceiling. You'd fill the spaces between the joists with insulation.

I'm more concerned about the sound traveling than the acoustic environment right now.

As much as I appreciate your willingness to strive for isolation, you need to realize how useless a horrible drywall only sounding room is. Basic room treatment is easy and makes a world of difference. Building your room inside out will make it so much easier to get a great sounding room.

Regarding the A/C vent, where would the silencer box go, on top of the inner room ceiling or in the inner room? How much space is that going to need and will that effect the height?

You need FOUR silencer boxes for your room. On both your inner and outer leaf you need a silencer box for both your supply and return ducts.

They can go in different places depending on where you have the space. You could have your outer leaf boxes outside your outer leaf. You could have your inner leaf boxes inside your inner leaf. You could have all four between your inner and outer leaf or any combination of the above. Just realize that these are large and if your inner leaf boxes end up inside your inner leaf, they will eat up valuable space in your room that will make your cubic area smaller and ultimately make your room sound worse acoustically.

I'd personally investigate placing as many as I could in your sump pump room area if possible. Also, it's a good idea to keep them up in the ceiling or between walls vertically as the are less intrusive then.

Also, regarding the sprinkler head, can I leave that on the outside and not worry about it?

If you legally cannot remove it, then follow Stuart's instructions above. He explained how he has dealt with it in the past.

I'm glad you're asking all these questions instead of just relying on your friend to just build it based on his experience. We want you to have a functioning space that you can enjoy for years to come!

Greg

[merpmerp]

The things he pointed out are common construction details. If he knew anything about building studios he would have talked about the mass of the door, the through-hole handle, an automatic door closer, and automatic door bottom and seals. Regarding the A/C, he would have mentioned insertion loss, CFM, air velocity, latent and sensible loads along with the concerns of the other exposed mechanical trashing your isolation.

I'm being realistic and point out the importance of having your 3D model complete before you start building your room.

How am I doing that?

We didn't get too into it, this was right after I moved in and just started having some work done. He has never done it before and knows I am researching and will have no issue doing what needs to be done.

Inside out would mean that the drywall would be touching the insulation between your inner leaf and outer leaf. One or two layers of insulation doesn't matter. What matters is how thick the gap filled with insulation is. That along with the surface density of your drywall are the only two parts of the MSM equation that determine the amount of isolation you will achieve.

I'm sick of looking at my unfinished studio too. Use that frustration to drive you to finish your build. Once it's done, you can have beautiful looking fabric and wood or whatever you want on the walls. The key to a usable room is one that sounds great AND provides the isolation you need in order to play music in it.

Are there any examples that you know of that I can look at? If I put up wood, doesn't that turn it into a three leaf system?

If you visit Green Glue's website, you can see how to properly use the material. It is applied between your layers of drywall.

Yes, I've seen many videos on it. I just wanted to confirm if I would be using it or not.

No, I'm referring to your inner leaf inside out ceiling. You'd fill the spaces between the joists with insulation.

OK, what about the outer leaf? What am I doing with that? That has no insulation or anything in it right now. Am I just putting insulation in it, putting insulation and drywall, doing nothing, or something completely different?

As much as I appreciate your willingness to strive for isolation, you need to realize how useless a horrible drywall only sounding room is. Basic room treatment is easy and makes a world of difference. Building your room inside out will make it so much easier to get a great sounding room

.

Unfortunately I know how bad a drywall only sounding room is from my last house! I just need to know what to put up.

You need FOUR silencer boxes for your room. On both your inner and outer leaf you need a silencer box for both your supply and return ducts.

They can go in different places depending on where you have the space. You could have your outer leaf boxes outside your outer leaf. You could have your inner leaf boxes inside your inner leaf. You could have all four between your inner and outer leaf or any combination of the above. Just realize that these are large and if your inner leaf boxes end up inside your inner leaf, they will eat up valuable space in your room that will make your cubic area smaller and ultimately make your room sound worse acoustically.

I'd personally investigate placing as many as I could in your sump pump room area if possible. Also, it's a good idea to keep them up in the ceiling or between walls vertically as the are less intrusive then.

OK, I also have room, and more of it on the opposite side in the HVAC room. The A/C went is currently in the middle of the room in the ceiling. If the first box is on the outer leaf in the sump pump room, how am I getting it from the A/C vent to that box? Am I using additional duct work? I would assume so, I just want to make sure you're not referring to moving that vent.

f you legally cannot remove it, then follow Stuart's instructions above. He explained how he has dealt with it in the past.

It does need to stay and I would not want to remove it but where it is right now, it would not interfere with the inner leaf ceiling. Couldn't I just leaf it as is if that is the case?

I'm glad you're asking all these questions instead of just relying on your friend to just build it based on his experience.

He's got no experience with this type of build (room within a room) but knowing how he works I'm confident he will do whatever needs to be done to make sure it is done right.

We want you to have a functioning space that you can enjoy for years to come!

Thank you! So do I!