John Sayers' Recording Studio Design Forum Archive

Im a tv composer. I track lots of guitars and vocals in my studio. I just converted my garage, and have a Mass air Mass soundproof room on one side. The inside to outside sound transferrance is very satisfyingly minimal to none. No more traffic and dogs ruining my takes, or neighbors getting treated to my vocals haha!

Now - Ive got the room, and I want to treat it. The dimensions are
:
w= 12.2 feet
H- 7 feet 9 inches
L = 16.7

Ive got 4 vats of left over roxul, 5 4 by 2 foot 703 panels, currently in the mix area.

I want to build a few diffusers, and some bass traps, and a cool cloud.

Links?
Ideas?
Im open to anything

So this is a live room only? Do you mix as well or just track? If you mix, where do you mix? Is this a dual purpose (mix and track) room?

Greg

Yes I track and mix in here. Its cluttered, as I'm doing a few projects, for live work, and tv work. I work pretty much every day and in every imaginable capacity. Building road racks with band members, composing for tv. Its been a massive step up to have a separate structure enable me to move and expand what I do. I followed many of the steps I have found here on this forum, and in the recommended book "build it like the pro's". I came in right around what I could actually afford, around 11 grand in the us.

As far as treatment goes, it certainly would benefit from some bass trapping, and some diffusion. Its obviously not super well treated in here, I certainly hear things pop up - even more noticeable without external road noise, dogs, rain, and the "is it even on" efficiency of this mini split. Its raining pretty hard right now as I type this, and you would never have any idea in here. Every now and then the roofing contractor next door has a large truck pull up, and you can hear some low frequencies sneak in. That's all isolation tho - which i've certainly achieved. Now I'm looking at treatment over the next few months, Im curious to what others might think, or links ro creative ideas.

The white receptacle over the mix position is ac for a future cloud, with its own 15 amp breaker. Id like to have some kind of lighting in the yet to be built cloud, something fun. =-)

Well, I'm not entirely convinced that you read enough on this forum. If you did, you would have built your ceiling using John's inside out technique. That would improve your acoustics dramatically. Also, rip out your rug. Rug basically affects the acoustic response of your room in the exact opposite of what your room needs.

If you're tracking and mixing, you'll need to using variable acoustic devices. If you read the Handbook Of Acoustics, there is a chapter devoted to the devices and you can get ideas about what you're able to make.

You might achieve the best results by treating your room as a great mixing room. You can read the ITU-R BS.1116-3 on the later chapters to see what the end goal is for your room. While treating the back half of your room, you could keep the variable acoustics in mind.

Lastly, your speakers look too far away from your front wall. Use the search feature on this forum and search SBIR. You'll quickly see how you should position your speakers to fix SBIR problems!

Greg

Great points!

the speakers are definitely too far from the wall right now, I'm still getting in and out from behind the desk, and doing a lot of listening and adjusting. Getting to know what the strengths and weaknesses actually are.

Rug - glue down office rug - it was free and got me in under budget! Easy to replace. The room was built with a baby on the way and me having a deadline to get the studio out of the house, so the baby can have my old studio. We are due this month.

Ill check out that book thanks for the tip!

HI there " thedukewestern". Welcome!

w= 12.2 feet
H- 7 feet 9 inches
L = 16.7

The floor area is fine, but the ceiling is very low. Rooms with low ceilings are very challenging to treat, acoustically, and won't ever sound fantastic. Why did you do the ceiling so low?

But this is confusing:

"I track lots of guitars and vocals in my studio."
...
"currently in the mix area."

So do you have TWO rooms, one for tracking and the other for mixing? Or do you just have one room where you are trying to do both? Are you aware that the acoustic response needed for a tracking room is VERY different from the acoustic response needed for a control room? You cannot have a single set of treatment that works well for both: If you want to use the same room for tracking and also for mixing, you need variable acoustic devices that can change the response of the room.

I want to build a few diffusers, and some bass traps, and a cool cloud.

I'm not sure that you'll be able to use numeric-based diffusers in that room: it is just barely big enough for that, but borderline. I don't normally use numeric diffusers unless the room is about 18 or 20 feet long. That's where they start to be usable, and useful. You may have other options, though.

Links?
Ideas?
Im open to anything

There's not much to go on in your post! And the purpose of the forum is not to be a free design service. The purpose of the forum is to help YOU design and build your room, not to do the job for you for free. In other words, you are supposed to come up with a basic design for your room treatment, then show it here so we can help you improve it. Right now, you are just saying "Here's my room: fix it." That's not how the forum works. If you don't want to do the design yourself (for example, if you don't have the time or the desire to spend months learning about acoustics), then hire a designer to do the design for you. And if you DO want to learn enough to do it yourself, then I'd suggest "Master Handbook of Acoustics" by F. Alton Everest (that's sort of the Bible for acoustics). That will give you the background in acoustics that you need to be able to design your treatment that you need.

What I can give you for free, is this (assuming this is a control room and you only want basic, low-cost treatment):
- First, strip the room completely until it is bare.
- Now set up the geometry for your speakers and mix position correctly: Get your speakers up tightly against the front wall except for a 4" gap where you will insert a panel of OC-703. Get the speaker height correct, such that the acoustic axis is about 48" above the floor, or maybe a little higher (depends on speaker, room, desk, etc.).
- Get your mix position where it should be, about 72 inches from the front wall. Angle the speakers inwards so they are both aiming at a point about 16" behind your head.
- With nothing but the speakers and a chair where the mix position will be, do a REW test of the empty room, like this: http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewt ... =3&t=21122 .
- Get a smaller desk, that does not raise things up above the actual work surface: those video screens are in a terrible location there. Get them lower. Have NOTHING on your desk that rises up higher than a few inches.
- Put 24" Superchunk bass traps in your front corners, floor to ceiling. Do another REW test.
- Put 36" Superchunk bass traps in your rear corners, floor to ceiling. Do another REW test.
- Cover the rest of the rear wall with 6" of suitable insulation, covered about 50% with wood slats, but not at ear height nor within about 18" either way. Do another REW test.
- Put 6" deep OC-703 panels at the first reflection points on the side walls. Do another REW test.
- Put suitable poly-cylindrial diffusers (with true catenary curve shape) on the side walls, a little further back than the mix position. Do another REW test.
- Build a suitable hard-backed cloud and hang it mid way between the mix position and the speakers. Angle it correctly. Do another REW test.
- Add more treatment as determined by the progression of REW tests, in the remaining area of the side walls, the remaining area on the ceiling, and the front wall between the speakers.

That's the basics. If you want the room to be the best it can be, then make it into an RFZ design with soffit-mounted speakers, hangers across the rear wall, and diffusion where possible.

Of course, all of that assumes that you want it to be a control room primarily: it does not take into account the variable acoustic treatment devices that you will need if you also want to track in there.

To see how the process for tuning a room normally goes, take a look at this thread: http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewt ... =2&t=21368 That's a room, which we are currently tuning and will be completed soon. To see how it can turn out when taken to extremes, here's another thread: http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewt ... =2&t=20471

- Stuart -

Hi Stuart. Thanks for the reply. You wrote me a great and well thought out synopsis a few years back. Thank you. I've actually been a member of the forum for a few years, donated upon joining as well as a result. Yes I'm aware that tracking and mixing have different acoustic needs. This is primarily a composition room, which means I have to wear every possible hat to get the job done regardless of what the needs are. I write and produce tv cues. Im a strong singer and guitarist, so those two sources tend to be what gets the most live microphone action.

As far as the dimensions, this is a garage conversion, and this was the available space, and with the baby coming it was this or nothing - so I chose this.

Thank you so much for the threads and links.

David

These are fantastic tips. thank you.

I noticed you asked me some questions above:
1) Yes - this is only 1 room. I track and mix in here my compositions for all different types of media.


After a year of rock solid work, I'm back in treatment mode this spring. I've been exploring REW, taking measurements with and without equipment in the room, and getting used to using that software.
Thank you for recomending it.


My question today: I have quite a few vats of leftover safe n sound, and hope to build the superchunk bass traps outlined above. However, I've heard chatter here and there about not putting roxul and/ or owens corning in an inhabitable environment, most notably this video. Claiming that regardless of what fabric resides over these types of products, they inevitably make it into the atmostphere and into our lungs, where the human body cannot remove it.

https://youtu.be/g4Nb2EhxvgM

Are we just watching an alarmist message?

Does anyone here have any insight into this?

However, I've heard chatter here and there about not putting roxul and/ or owens corning in an inhabitable environment, most notably this video.

First off, the guy in that video is famously known as a scam artist in the acoustics world.

Are we just watching an alarmist message?

I'm sure there is some merit to the claims but in my opinion, you should be more worried about what you're eating than some insulation screwing up your body. I haven't heard of any famous recording engineers dying from the insulation they've had in their studios since the 1970's... have you?

Does anyone here have any insight into this?

Don't ever waste any of your time or brain power watching any "Acoustic Fields" videos. Furthermore, don't let your friends or colleagues watch it either.

That's my opinion!

Greg

Gregwor wrote: I'm sure there is some merit to the claims but in my opinion, you should be more worried about what you're eating than some insulation screwing up your body. I haven't heard of any famous recording engineers dying from the insulation they've had in their studios since the 1970's... have you?

Don't ever waste any of your time or brain power watching any "Acoustic Fields" videos. Furthermore, don't let your friends or colleagues watch it either.
Greg

Glad I asked haha! I don't have much brainpower left...

Well - asbestos, which he points out in the beginning of the video, is actually harmless UNTILL it is disturbed. I have this vision of moving gear in and out and smacking into panels and bass traps, being the only thing that could happen short of an earthquake tremor.

Moving on, who is selling acoustic fabric these days? Can you recomend a united states vendor?

Moving on, who is selling acoustic fabric these days? Can you recomend a united states vendor?

This stuff is expensive but top notch! Give them a call or email to find out if there is a place near you that sells the stuff.
https://www.guilfordofmaine.com/contact

Otherwise, I'd recommend going to your local fabric store (a quick google search should reveal one near by) and try to find a fabric that you can easily breathe through.

Greg

Thank you Gregwor that's exactly what I was looking for.

Per Stuarts suggestion above, Id like to start with superchunk bass traps. I've seen quite a few different takes on these, I found this link online http://www.ayoung.ca/basstraps.php where the writer also recommends forgoing them and instead using flat panel broadband absorbers with ports in the sides to allow for bass frequency entry along the wall side of the panel. I've also seen versions of these traps in this forum with black trash bag material over the insulation, in order to 1) improve fiber leakage prevention, and 2) act as a high pass. (not totally sold on that one)

None of these concepts confuse me, however, I'd prefer to only do this once as this room is pretty much what I do for a living at this point. Can you provide any insight into the best bang for the buck design on this style trap?

Superchunks are great. These are built similar to the link that you posted --> except that guy made them too small in my opinion. The wider they are, the better. His triangles are too small.

Another option is to use wide batts of rigid fiberglass such as OC703 and then completely fill the insides of the void with fluffy pink insulation.

I believe both work great. Just make them as wide as you can (remember, the wider they are, the deeper the corner is!)

Here's how I would do it. This way will allow you to have a nice 3'10" wide trap. You could piece together the 1'11" left overs to trap a different corner. Greg