Small-ish CR and booth design and build
Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 3:28 pm
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A World of Experience
https://johnlsayersarchive.com/
You don't want to tick off these businesses or you'll find yourself in a heap of trouble.Directly either side of me is a photography studio and furniture storage/design.
Amps, specifically bass amps are REALLY loud throughout buildings. Also, if you're tracking vocals, you will definitely want to keep external sounds from getting into your vocal recordings.I want to build a small booth for tracking vocals mainly but also smaller solo instruments and amps too (not big enough for drum kit).
I'm glad you understand the importance of isolation. However, with a room that size, I doubt you're going to be able to achieve the isolation you need within your budget.My noise escaping is an issue as is external noise coming in.
This is awesome. Because maybe you don't need to build your rooms so extreme and you CAN fit it into your budget. Time will tell.I'm getting a sound meter from a friend in the next few days to test the noise.
Okay, I understand your willing to accept potentially poor acoustic response from your rooms. I don't understand why you want to dump thousands of dollars and clearly commit to a lease agreement for a place that doesn't do it's job as a studio though. Are you sure building in a commercial location is the right move for you with a $5000 AUS budget? Isolation doesn't come cheap, or fast. So you need a booth that is isolated and doesn't sound horrible. That means you need a decent sized booth. If you're mixing electronic music, you're going to have some pretty crazy low cycle information being played at least at times, really loudly. That means that in order to keep your neighboring businesses happy, your control room also needs good isolation. Then, wanting a control that is "relatively flat" comes some quite extremely expensive building material (wood, insulation and fabric). Unless your Owens Corning 703 is dirt cheap where you live, I can tell you right now that you would probably need to blow your entire budget just on acoustic treatment 703, let alone for insulation between your walls. Then, HVAC (which realistically could eat up half to 3/4 of your budget alone), studs, engineered joists, drywall, electrical, windows, doors, seals, caulk, Green Glue compound, mud, tape, paint, trim, fabric, tools, probably engineer stamps, permits, business license.Obviously trying to do it as cheap as possible and not expecting 100% perfect results. I want a booth which is isolated from outside noise and a control room that is relatively flat for mixing. My noise escaping is an issue as is external noise coming in.
Okay, a brick wall is good (other than the fact that you'll probably have to seal it), but the other 3 walls will need beef up. That's a long and pretty expensive job. Chances are they used lightweight 1/2" gyprock. You might as well consider that as not even being there. From the description you gave us about your intended studio usage, you're going to need good isolation. That type of transmission loss only comes in the form of a room in a room construction. MSM systems ideally have similar mass on both leaves. Now, that means you'll need 2 layers of 5/8" heavy fire rated gypsum on your neighboring walls. So, you'll have to cut chunks and apply them between the exising wall studs to the existing 1/2" lightweight (assuming here) gypsum. You'll have GG compound between each layer and you'll seal every seam on each layer. You'll use cleats to hold these in place. You never mentioned what the ceiling was made of short of "The ceiling is exposed metal beams/insulation." I'm honestly not trying to be a jerk here, but you failed to tell us what the sheathing is, and THAT's the important detail we need to know. If it's just light tin, you'll need to address that and it won't be cheap or easy. THEN, you can start worrying about your rooms. You'll build your rooms in this completed hermetically sealed shell.One of the short walls is brick, the other 3 walls are just gyprock with no insulation to the next room.
Well, that's one good piece of news. You don't have to do ANYTHING to the floor.The floor is concrete.
So I'll recap here because the description you just gave won't work.I'm hoping I can build 4 walls into the room with wood studs, double layer 16mm Fyrcheck Gyprock (green glue in-between) and insulation (not sure which to use yet). Then build the booth into one end of the room approx 1.2m deep x the full width of room (pretty much following THIS )
Well, you COULD start beefing up the walls as I said above so that you have a solid sealed outer leaf to build in, but other than that, without a solid 100% complete SketchUp design, you'd be crazy to start building anything else.I get the room in 2 weeks - and want to build ASAP. I have a carpenter friend who will help me, he has a plasterer that can help, and there's an in-house sparky for electrics.
Okay, you don't want to soffit mount due to ease of design/build/time. Sure. Soffit mounting is the best thing you can do for a control room, but you've already stated that you're okay with it not being awesome. In this quote you also state that isolation is very important. That is the biggest expense, but any decent studio needs good isolation. "Still early days of the plan, but that's what I've come up with so far. I don't want to go soffit mounting speakers - I want to keep it as basic as possible - isolate the noise coming in/going out
It seems as though you are under the impression that you can build a room with decent isolation and as long as you have "good dimensions" you don't have to worry too much about things like acoustic treatment devices or soffit mounting your speakers. I hate to tell you, but that's not the way it works. Over and over and over, the dimension myth has been debunked on the forum. Sure, there are some horrible room dimensions that exist (like the perfect cube for example), but there is not magical room dimension that just sounds good. Every single room in the world will have nodes and a modal response. The basic rule of thumb is that bigger rooms sound better because they have more modes. Now, getting back to my point that before you build, you need a completed SketchUp design -- you need to design your rooms based off of things like:make dimensions good so as to avoid as many standing waves/nodes as possible and treat with wall/ceiling mounted traps, clouds and treatment later.
From what I can tell from your post, you either need to spend tens of thousands on hiring a pro like John to design your space, or you need to put on the brakes, work out of your living quarters and study this forum and some books to learn the basics so you can design it yourself. It will give you time to save up more money so you can actually afford to build a functional studio space.Budget = under $5k AUD
It all depends on things like where your electrics are coming in from? Where's existing HVAC? Where will your HVAC duct work and silencers go? Things like that. Those are the important factors, not node and modes and turds and birds.- What will be the best size/place to build the vocal booth wall? Compromise between room nodes etc for both spaces?
Same answer as the last question.- Which orientation would be better for my actual desk and setup? Facing the booth or facing the side wall?
Leave it as concrete.- What should I do with the floor in the booth? I've read around this site that concrete is fine generally - but should I be isolating the booth floor from the main floor?
You welcomed me to criticize, so I did. I hope I didn't crush your dreams. This forum is to do exactly as I did - give you things to think about and consider. Make you realize that you probably should plan everything out and learn more by spending hundreds of hours reading the forum and books before you go and sign up to a lease you can't afford because you don't have the money to even build out the space to make money! So, in short, everything I wrote that may have come across as mean, wasn't. I wrote it because I care and I want to help. There was no point in me telling you every single detail about studio design and building in my answer because that's what the forum and books are for.Any other general comments or criticism welcomed.
OK, so this is going to be a three-room studio: a control room, plus a vocal booth, plus an iso booth. Is that correct?I want to build a small booth for tracking vocals mainly but also smaller solo instruments and amps too (not big enough for drum kit). The room will mainly be used for mixing and production of electronic music.
How loud? You will need to measure that, since the most basic part of studio design commences with good isolation. So you will need a sound level meter (not expensive: maybe US$ 100 or so for a good one), set it ti "C" weighting and "Slow" response, then stand in your room while the other places are all making noise, and measure the level in your room. Walk around, and measure at several places. Then go back and measure again at some other time, when there is nobody else around, and it is really quiet. Then make a third measurement at any place you feel like, where you judge that it is very, very quiet: silent enough to be able to mix accurately, even on very soft, gentle tracks. Report those three measurements here, and we'll help you figure out how much isolation you need. Everything else in your entire studio build follows on from that point. The isolation need defines the largest possible size and probably also the shape of your rooms, so you do need to have that in place first.The rest of the shared warehouse is full of rehearsal rooms, other recording studios, (visual) art studios, photography studios and even furniture storage and design. Directly either side of me is a photography studio and furniture storage/design. The rehearsal rooms are the loudest obviously - but they have been designed and built well and are not too noisy.
I'm sure you do, but that would be a big, BIG mistake. This is not what you want to hear, I'm certain, but it is the plain, solid, harsh truth: you won't be able to build anything for many weeks, likely months. The single most important thing you will need to do (after figuring out your isolation number), is to spend the time to design your entire studio properly, in every single aspect, before you even buy a single 2x4, sheet of drywall, or bag of nails. You have to design it fully, completely, entirely, including the structural part, the layout, the geometry, the sight lines, the traffic paths, the positions of doors and windows, which way the doors open, what they might bump into when they do open, the locations of the speakers and the mix position and the client couch, the acoustic treatment in each room, the HVAC system, the electrical system, the sealing, and a thousand other things. If you aren't already experienced in construction, then you'll need to spend time learning how to lay out your framing, what size framing to use at each point, how to place king studs, jack studs, and cripple studs around doors and windows, where to put noggins, what load and deflection you want for your ceiling, what type of wood you need and how big it must be to safely span the distances across your rooms with the load you will be hanging from it, HVAC flow rates, flow velocities, static pressure, sensible heat load, latent heat load, BTU ratings, etc. etc. If you aren't already experienced with acoustics, you'll have to learn all about that too, involving things such as Mass Law, MSM equations, baffle step response, coefficients of absorption, coefficients of diffusion, edge diffraction, reflections at different frequencies, modal response, SBIR, power balance, and a thousand other things. Once you know all of that, then you can actually sit down and start designing the studio. We strongly recommend using the SketchUp design software, which you will also have to learn (if you don't already know it). And once the design is entirely complete, in all aspects, THEN you can call up your carpenter and get him started.and want to build ASAP.
Excellent! But you might want to get your own, as you will nee it regularly during the build, and afterwards, for room tuning. The cost of a good sound level meter is a miniscule tiny fraction of what the build is going to cost, so it's worth getting your own.I'm getting a sound meter from a friend in the next few days to test the noise.
Do your best to estimate what you think this will cost you, at the absolute maximum. Multiply that by a random number between 2 and 10. Add in a "fudge factor" of somewhere between 120% and 500%. Adjust by a safety margin of about 1.5 to 5.73. Open any newspaper to the financial pages, point at any number on that page randomly, and add that number to your total. Dived that by a small fraction between 0.2 and 0.4. Call your local Pizza Hut and ask for a quote of a thousand pizzas, and add that. Also call your local brewery and ask for a quote of a hundreds cases of their best beer. Add that too. Finally, add in another hundred bucks for the cost of the sound level meter, and that's it! You have your total real cost! Simple!Obviously trying to do it as cheap as possible
You should be! You are planning to spend many thousands of dollars here, so it would be wise to expect that it will get you the best possible results that fit the budget!and not expecting 100% perfect results.
Implies lots of mass, implies heavy building materials, and the structure to hold it up, and a lot of sealing, and HVAC so the artists can stay alive and comfortable inside, and thick, heavy glass for the windows, and thick heavy doors, which in turn implies heavy duty hinges, and a heavy duty door closer, plus lighting, plus audio snake, video screen connection, Internet connection, electrical power, all of which must breach the isolation barrier without trashing your isolation....I want a booth which is isolated from outside noise
"flat" in what sense? Most people think of "flat frequency response" as being the most important goal to aim for in a control room, but they are wrong. It's important, yes, but flat time-domain response, and flat phase response are far, far more important. I can build you a room that has flat frequency response but sounds terrible and would be no use at all for mixing. And I can build you another room that has very much "un-flat" frequency response yet is really good for mixing. It's good to have flat frequency response if you can get it, but it's not the most important measurement.and a control room that is relatively flat for mixing.
That would be decent if it was just a control room, all by itself. As you'll see in BS.1116.3, the minimum recommended size for a control room is 20 m2 floor area: yours is 26m2, which would be nice for a control room. But putting a control room AND a vocal booth AND an iso booth in that space is cutting it very fine!The room is 6.98m long x 3.77m wide.
Correct, but you are forgetting the ceiling! You need a new ceiling up there, on top of your walls, to complete the isolation shell. And your existing ceiling is going to need some major work to make it usable for good isolation.I'm hoping I can build 4 walls into the room with wood studs, double layer 16mm Fyrcheck Gyprock (green glue in-between) and insulation
That won't work. You need to isolate the booth all by itself, not have it as part of the control room. If you try to have them together, your isolation is limited by Mass Law. Not very good. So you would need another 2 x 0.15 m to account for those isolation walls, meaning that your control room can be a maximum of 6.68 - 1.2 - 0.3 long. = 5.18 long x 3.47 wide = 17.97 m2. Borderline, and you don't yet have an iso booth!Then build the booth into one end of the room approx 1.2m deep x the full width of room
It's possible, yes, but it complicates treatment considerably when you have a room that gets narrower towards the back, especially for bass frequencies.For the ceiling I'm hoping to start at the 3m height at the edge of the vocal booth and follow the angle up of the existing roof for the 1.2m of the booth, then angle down to meet the other end at 3m.
I though you said that you wanted the room to be as flat as possible for mixing? So why do you not want to do the single most important, most effective thing that will help to get your room flat?I don't want to go soffit mounting speakers -
That would be the exact WRONG thing to do, and is impossible anyway. This is a common misconception, so let me explain: Room ratios is a whole major subject in studio design. It works like this: The walls of your studio create natural resonances in the air space between them, inside the room. (This is totally different from the MSM resonance of the walls themselves: this is all about what happens INSIDE the ROOM, not what happens inside the walls. Two totally different things.)make dimensions good so as to avoid as many standing waves/nodes as possible
I think you mean "modes" not "nodes", but for a vocal booth there's no need to worry about modes anyway: it is just too small to have any useful modes low down, so your only real option with a small booth is to treat the hell out of it, until it is very dead. When choosing the dimensions for a vocal booth, a much more important aspect than modes, is comfort! The booth has to be large enough that the talent does not feel "hemmed in", or claustrophobic, and has enough space to set up the mic, music stand, stool, and whatever else he/she might need, in a comfortable arrangement, and still be able to open the door without moving any of it. So the biggest factor in determining booth size, is ergonomics, not modal response. On the other hand, if making the booth bigger also makes the CR smaller, then you have a major paradox to resolve! Do you want the best possible CR dimensions, for the best possible acoustics in there? Or do you want a great space for the talent to perform, so they can give it there best in an inviting booth with good vibe? You can make the vocal room small and cramped, so the won't perform so well, in order to get a great control room. Or you can shrink the control room so the talent is happy, but mangling the CR acoustics, without any hope of being able to fix it...- What will be the best size/place to build the vocal booth wall? Compromise between room nodes etc for both spaces?
Haas time. That's the key factor. You want the mix position far enough from the rear wall that all of your reflections from that rear wall fall outside the Haas time. For a large room, that's not a problem, and you can probably set up facing either way. But for a small room it IS a problem, and your only hope is to set up the room length-wise, with the speakers pointing down the longest axis. You want that rear wall as far behind you as you can get it, but you CANNOT push the desk forward to do that, since that would put your head in a bad spot, acoustically, and require a toe-in angle on the speakers that squishes up the sweet spot, and stretches your sound-stage too wide, and messes up your frequency response and time-domain response...- Which orientation would be better for my actual desk and setup? Facing the booth or facing the side wall?
Probably not necessary if you have a good slab-on-grade floor. You would only need to worry about that if you are getting major vibration in that slab, such as perhaps impact noise from a drum kit in the rehearsal space, or some type of machinery in the building (pump, HVAC motor, elevator, etc.)- What should I do with the floor in the booth? I've read around this site that concrete is fine generally - but should I be isolating the booth floor from the main floor?