John Sayers' Recording Studio Design Forum Archive

Hi all, long term forum lurker here. It's finally time for my own project to kick off.

I have started renting a unit on a rural industrial estate with intentions of building a two-room studio, the main use being recording drums for online tuition content and product demos/reviews. The unit is attached on both sides to two other units, one being an upholstery business, and the other being another recording studio (conventional band recording studio). The units are on the side of the main road into the industrial estate, so traffic is often passing by. My main concerns are achieving the necessary isolation between both studios (mine and next door) and cutting out road noise. Sound meter readings further below..

This is my first time undergoing any kind of studio design or construction like this, so I am a complete novice. I have done lots of research online as well as reading Rod's book (currently waiting to get it back from a friend to have a refresh on it).

The space itself is a healthy 6.3x10m with a high pitched roof, starting at 3.5m high, pitching up to 4.9m. It currently has a large roller door onto the road that will need sealing up. Here are a few pictures of the space as it stands now:
The current sound levels are as follows (all measured in dB, C weighted slow response):

Inside the Unit:

• Ambient noise - 53.1
  Drums playing measured directly next to kit - 113.6
  Drums playing measured from pedestrian door - 110.8
  Noise of a vehicle driving past - 78

In the adjacent studio

• Ambient Noise - 55
  Drums playing measured from control room - 63.2
  Drums playing measured from live room - 67.2

With these measurements in mind, if I can aim for a 10dB reduction between the two studios I think that would be an adequate isolation level for both. A similar reduction would be required for the road noise to my unit, but I'm less concerned about the bleed into the upholstery unit. Just to clarify, the two studio share the wall with the toilet block, upholstery unit attached on opposite side.

My proposed plans are best described on the attached Sketchup File. I plan to add mass to the party wall between studios as well as the road side front, then build a room inside a room, this room maintaining as much height as possible while clearing the original beams, as well as separating out the control room. The control room and live room will share a staggered stud wall, which will eventually include a flat roof over the control room (I need to brush up on Rod's book again before finishing the proposed control room design).
I couldn't get Sketchup file small enough to directly upload (even after a purge) so here is a Google Drive link for the file:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1nTJvL ... b-RSc3HUhc
I've grouped items sensibly as to be able to hide parts in the Outliner to see inside and access detail etc. In the current model, all exterior walls have additional plasterboard mass, but I question if this will be necessary.

I would like to keep the budget for this build below the £6k mark, I plan to do all of the labour myself with the assistance of some very kind friends that have offered their time, so this budget is for materials only. One thing that I've been made aware of that may make a small hole in this budget is moving the fuse boxes and electric meters, which I believe can only be carried out by the electricity distribution company, costing between £1-£1.5k. Is anyone able to shed any light on this?

This leads me to my questions:

1) The concrete slab is currently very uneven and the surface is heavily pitted, is my best bet levelling off the current floor and laying laminate flooring?

2) Will my current plan supply the required level of isolation? Do I have too much/too little mass? Will I require Green Glue?

3) The corner framing topic in the reference area helped me work out how to build my wall corners (although I haven't aligned the boards in the model correctly yet), but how do I acheive this in the 90 degree angles where the wall meets the ceiling?

4) Should I be planning to use different boards in the wall layers e.g. a board of OSB and 2 layers of plasterboard, instead of 3 layers of plasterboard?



Thanks in advance to all, the time you all take to reply to the requests on this forum is greatly appreciated by all!

Hi there " nickhart", and Welcome!!

The space itself is a healthy 6.3x10m with a high pitched roof, starting at 3.5m high, pitching up to 4.9m.

Nice! Bodes well for a great studio.

Drums playing measured directly next to kit - 113.6
Drums playing measured from live room - 67.2

So you are getting around 46 dB at present. You only measured with drums: do you also expect to have other loud instruments in there, such as bass guitar, electric guitar, or keyboards?

With these measurements in mind, if I can aim for a 10dB reduction between the two studios I think that would be an adequate isolation level for both.

In other words, you want to aim for about 56 dB isolation? Are you sure that will be enough? "Ambient noise = 55", and "drums = 67". Getting another 10 dB would mean that your drums will still be louder than ambient, and clearly audible. You need to be about 15 dB BELOW ambient to be inaudible. (Have you ever been in a cocktail party with dozens of people around you, talking, and high ambient sound, yet you can still pick out individual conversations of people quite a few feet away, even thou their voices are clearly LOWER than the ambient sound, since they are a part of creating it?).

A similar reduction would be required for the road noise to my unit,

What type of road noise? Any heavy vehicles, such as trucks, buses, farm equipment, even large motorbikes? Any vibration from that road, coming through the ground?

but I'm less concerned about the bleed into the upholstery unit.

What about bleed FROM them INTO your place? Do they use power tools? Staple guns? Nail guns? Power sheers? Do they have a compressor? What type of noise do they make?

I plan to add mass to the party wall between studios

That looks like a concrete block wall to me. It already has quite a bit of mass. How do you plan to add more? How much more?

The control room and live room will share a staggered stud wall,

Why staggered stud? Do you not need much isolation between the CR and LR? You do have the space to do it properly, so I'm not clear on why you would skimp here, to save an inch or two, and a few bits of lumbar.

which will eventually include a flat roof over the control room (I need to brush up on Rod's book again before finishing the proposed control room design).

It would definitely help to understand the complete concept if you include the CR in your model as well.

I've grouped items sensibly as to be able to hide parts in the Outliner to see inside and access detail etc.

It is MUCH better, and far more useful to assign those groups to layers, so you can manipulate them more easily. Also, make them into "components" not "groups".

In the current model, all exterior walls have additional plasterboard mass, but I question if this will be necessary.

The density of concrete is around 2400 kg/m3. The walls of a typical concrete block are around 40mm thick, and there's two walls on a block, so 80mm. The surface density is therefore around 190 kg/m2. That assumes they are hollow, not sand filled. If they are sand filled, the mass is much higher.

So your wall has a surface density of at least 190 kg/m2. The density of drywall (gypsum board, plaster board) is around 680 kg/m2. The surface density of a sheet of 12mm drywall is around 8 kg/m2. So if you add TWENTY-FOUR layers of drywall (in other words, 24 sheets thick), you would match the mass of the concrete blocks, which means you would have doubled the original mass, and therefore you would have gained around 5 dB isolation... Do the math, and see if this is cost effective. If you just add one or two layers of drywall, you'd be increasing the mass by maybe 4% to 8%, and the effect on isolation would be negligible.

I would like to keep the budget for this build below the £6k mark,

19 layers of drywall, plus all that framing, would probably put you a bit over!

You have a total floor area of 63 m2. Your budget implies that you plan to spend around £95/m2 of floor area. That doesn't see very realistic to me. You could easily blow a third of your entire budget just on the HVAC system (yes you DO need one). I'd suggest that you draw up a simple bill of materials, go price them at your local hardware store, and multiply the price of each by the number you need, add up all the totals, and see how you are doing. I think you'll find that you are rather short on budget.

I plan to do all of the labour myself with the assistance of some very kind friends that have offered their time, so this budget is for materials only.

What about renting the tools and equipment you will need? You will be working up to 4.9 m above the floor, so you will have to rent scaffolding for that part, plus you'll need safety harnesses for that. Don't skimp on safety! It's not a lot of extra money (scaffold rental isn't too expensive, neither is safety gear), but it all adds up, and you are on VERY tight budget.

One thing that I've been made aware of that may make a small hole in this budget is moving the fuse boxes and electric meters, which I believe can only be carried out by the electricity distribution company, costing between £1-£1.5k. Is anyone able to shed any light on this?

Not sure about the UK; but where I live you can so the internal work (on your side of the meter) with a qualified electrician, or maybe even do some of it yourself under the supervision of a qualified electrician, but you WILL need to pay the power company to move the meter. And they WILL rob you blind. Been there, done that, several times. And they WILL take longer than anticipated, and they WON'T work to your schedule: they'll pitch up when they feel like it, not when you need them there.... Just a word to the wise... Be prepared... Your estimate for the cost of moving the meter seems about right. That's what I would expect to pay, where I live.

Question: Do you NEED to move the meter box? Is there an alternative layout that would allow you to keep it where it is?

1) The concrete slab is currently very uneven and the surface is heavily pitted, is my best bet levelling off the current floor and laying laminate flooring?

Yes, you will likely need to level that, but since you are on a VERY tight budget, you probably won't be able to afford laminate. Just stay with plain concrete. Use self-leveling compound. You will probably need to rent a pressure washer to clean the existing slab properly, before you can level it.

2) Will my current plan supply the required level of isolation? Do I have too much/too little mass?

You'll have to do the math on that, because it's hard to figure out what the air gap will be, what the masses will be, and you didn't mention insulation. Also, without having the CR in there, it's impossible to say what the total isolation will be, since that's going to affect it. You didn't mention your plans for doors, windows, the HVAC system (yes you WILL need one), or the electrical system isolation, and all those play a part in total isolation. Sealing, too: sealing is critical. If you don't seal your rooms properly, you can easily lose a dozen dB of isolation... which could take you right back to where you started!

It is certainly possible to get 56 dB of isolation, and you could get even more with careful planning and some extra effort.

3) The corner framing topic in the reference area helped me work out how to build my wall corners (although I haven't aligned the boards in the model correctly yet), but how do I acheive this in the 90 degree angles where the wall meets the ceiling?

It depends on how you plan to build your walls, and your ceiling. There are different techniques. For example, if you build your walls conventionally, but your ceiling inside out, that's one technique, but if you do them both inside-out, that's a another technique, and doing them both conventionally is yet another technique. From the SKP file it seems you are planning to do it all conventionally?

However, there are several issues with your framing plan, among them:

1) You are showing only single top plates, but pretty much everywhere I've seen requires double top plates.
2) You are spanning the long way in many places, which implies using much larger lumber than spanning the short way.
3) You are using ordinary 2x4 lumber everywhere, but many of your ceiling spans are far too long for that, with a load of three layers of drywall
4) As above: You are using ordinary 2x4 lumber for your studs, but most places only allow that up to 10 feet or so (3m, roughly). You are going up to 4.8m in places, so you will likely need 2x6 lumber for that.
5) You are using an RSJ across the middle of the LR ceiling: have you accounted for that in your budget? Including the rental of the crane to get it raised? Did you check with your local building code to see if you are allowed to support an RSJ on timber studs? Did your structural engineer approve that? I'd be surprised if it is legal, especially when it is only supported on a single top plate over three 2x4 studs. That doesn't look right to me
6) You show drywall attached to the flanges of the RSJ: how do you plan to achieve that? You can't just nail it on! Nor can you glue it on, or screw it on.
7) The joints between all of your drywall layers line up exactly: you should stagger them by at least one stud / joist, to ensure good seals.
8 ) There are no headers above your doors, and no jack studs either. Those are load-bearing walls, and will need substantial structural support. I doubt that would ass inspection, and even if it did, I would still not do it that way. Over time, those doorways will sag, trash your isolation, and end up binding on your doors. Your door closers won't be able to handle that, so they wont seal properly, further trashing your isolation.
9) You don't have cripple studs at the ends of your window sills, and the framing dimensions seem deficient, considering the heavy glass load they will be carrying.
10) There are no trimmer studs in the window framing, yet those are load-bearing walls.
11) There's only one king and one jack stud on each side of your door frames: that won't be enough to support the very heavy doors that you will need. The framing will bend and twist as the doors are opened and closed
12) There are no noggins anywhere.

Those are the main issues. There's a few other minor things too, but those are the ones that are dangerous, illegal, or will bring you major grief down the road, if you do it like that.

So, there's great possibilities for that space, for sure, but your plan needs some correcting.


- Stuart -

Thanks for taking the time to write such a comprehensive answer Stuart!

You only measured with drums: do you also expect to have other loud instruments in there, such as bass guitar, electric guitar, or keyboards?

Maybe very occasionally, but will be predominantly a drum room.

You need to be about 15 dB BELOW ambient to be inaudible

So with this in mind, I'm aiming for an additional reduction of 27dB, creating overall reduction of 73dB. Is that not a little ambitious? I feel even if I don't quote make it as far as 'inaudible', 5dB or so above that still won't present any real problems to either of us.

Any heavy vehicles, such as trucks, buses, farm equipment, even large motorbikes? Any vibration from that road, coming through the ground?

There are some heavy vehicles and farm equipment on that road. A small amount of vibration does come through the ground, but not enough to spoil a drum recording in my eyes.

What about bleed FROM them INTO your place? Do they use power tools? Staple guns? Nail guns? Power sheers? Do they have a compressor?

Whenever they have been working next door, the loudest noise I heard was their radio.. no power tools, mostly sewing machine work luckily.

Why staggered stud?

You are 100% right here, I will change plans to independent walls.

So if you add TWENTY-FOUR layers of drywall (in other words, 24 sheets thick), you would match the mass of the concrete blocks, which means you would have doubled the original mass, and therefore you would have gained around 5 dB isolation... Do the math, and see if this is cost effective. If you just add one or two layers of drywall, you'd be increasing the mass by maybe 4% to 8%, and the effect on isolation would be negligible.

Well that saves the unnecessary effort, existing walls will stay as they are, which means leaving the electric meters where they currently are is now a much more feasible option

I think you'll find that you are rather short on budget.

I will do some of the maths on this. You're right though, I haven't factored for any kind of HVAC system at this point. Being in the UK, keeping cool is rarely a necessity, do cheaper systems exist that focus more on air cycling and humidity control rather than temperature control?

it's hard to figure out what the air gap will be, what the masses will be, and you didn't mention insulation. You didn't mention your plans for doors, windows, the HVAC system (yes you WILL need one), or the electrical system isolation, and all those play a part in total isolation.

You've highlighted that my plan is lacking detail (much of that detail in my head, some not considered yet!). I plan to put Rockwool between all of the studs, but currently have no plans for HVAC or exact electrical system locations.

It depends on how you plan to build your walls, and your ceiling. There are different techniques. For example, if you build your walls conventionally, but your ceiling inside out, that's one technique, but if you do them both inside-out, that's a another technique, and doing them both conventionally is yet another technique. From the SKP file it seems you are planning to do it all conventionally?

The current plan does have all walls built conventionally, I've been tempted by inside out walls, but am slightly concerned about the additional difficulties that may bring to a novice like myself, but upon writing that I feel that's the wrong attitude to have.

However, there are several issues with your framing plan, among them:

1) You are showing only single top plates, but pretty much everywhere I've seen requires double top plates.

What is the purpose of double top plates? Lack of knowledge on my part.

2) You are spanning the long way in many places, which implies using much larger lumber than spanning the short way.

Will re-orientate to correct this.

3) You are using ordinary 2x4 lumber everywhere, but many of your ceiling spans are far too long for that, with a load of three layers of drywall
4) As above: You are using ordinary 2x4 lumber for your studs, but most places only allow that up to 10 feet or so (3m, roughly). You are going up to 4.8m in places, so you will likely need 2x6 lumber for that.

Will update plans with 2x6 lumber where required.

5) You are using an RSJ across the middle of the LR ceiling: have you accounted for that in your budget? Including the rental of the crane to get it raised? Did you check with your local building code to see if you are allowed to support an RSJ on timber studs? Did your structural engineer approve that? I'd be surprised if it is legal, especially when it is only supported on a single top plate over three 2x4 studs. That doesn't look right to me

None of these plans have been checked by a structural engineer YET. The RSJ on studs was on the advice of a skilled carpenter friend of mine who recently fitted an RSJ in their house. If this isn't an option, I'm struggling to think of ways to support that vaulted ceiling without a pillar in the middle of the room?

6) You show drywall attached to the flanges of the RSJ: how do you plan to achieve that? You can't just nail it on! Nor can you glue it on, or screw it on.

The same carpenter friend of mine said he had seen this achieved through either wedging (yes literally wedging with the assistance of a strong adhesive) a piece of timber into the flange and fixing the drywall to that. If not that, he mentioned driving coach bolts through the RSJ.

7) The joints between all of your drywall layers line up exactly: you should stagger them by at least one stud / joist, to ensure good seals.

Will do

8 ) There are no headers above your doors, and no jack studs either. Those are load-bearing walls, and will need substantial structural support. I doubt that would ass inspection, and even if it did, I would still not do it that way.
9) You don't have cripple studs at the ends of your window sills, and the framing dimensions seem deficient, considering the heavy glass load they will be carrying.
10) There are no trimmer studs in the window framing, yet those are load-bearing walls.
11) There's only one king and one jack stud on each side of your door frames: that won't be enough to support the very heavy doors that you will need. The framing will bend and twist as the doors are opened and closed
12) There are no noggins anywhere.

Again, this is just my lack of knowledge, will update door/window frames to support more weight. Meant to add noggins before posting, completely forgot

Am I at a stage now where I should be getting advice from a structural engineer? Will I need to draw these plans up in a more 'professional' or industry standard manner for this?

A small update:

I've been making as much progress on design as I can so I'm able to take a full representation of the proposed plans to a structural engineer.
Hopefully I've addressed your framing queries Stuart, except the noggins, still on my to-do list!

The long live room wall has now been angled to allow access to the electric meters, removing the necessity to relocate them.
The far end of the live room has now been split off into an iso-booth, it felt like a much more efficient use of the space, it was an odd small end of the live room which I couldn't see much use for really.
My control room is taking shape, note that the control room ties directly into the original breezeblock structure for the rear two walls. These walls are shared with the previously mentioned upholstery unit and a field.. isolation from that isn't a big concern!

Here is a link to the updated model: https://drive.google.com/open?id=1neHBI ... RTeV0ty3-i

Next steps:
Multicore and mains socket locations
Lighting
HVAC system - or at least ventilation
Control Room Ceiling Cloud

So with this in mind, I'm aiming for an additional reduction of 27dB, creating overall reduction of 73dB. Is that not a little ambitious?

Yes! Very ambitious! That's beyond what you can realistically expect from a home studio build. 50 dB is about what a decently isolated room gets, and perhaps 60 if you really work hard at it. But 73 is more than ten times harder to do than 60...

I will do some of the maths on this. You're right though, I haven't factored for any kind of HVAC system at this point. Being in the UK, keeping cool is rarely a necessity, do cheaper systems exist that focus more on air cycling and humidity control rather than temperature control?

It's not just about cooling: it's about humidity control too. You need to keep the humidity in your studio under control, at around 40% RH roughly. The HVAC system can help to do that, since it removes latent heat (humidity) just as well as it removes sensible heat. Also, in the UK you might need heating, rather than cooling, when you first open up the studio in the morning, to get going for the day. Then you'll switch to dehumidifying/cooling later in the day, as things start warming up too much in there, from body heat, equipment, lights, hot pizzas... So you'll need a typical, ordinary, normal mini-split that does but heating and cooling, and is sized correctly for your room.

You've highlighted that my plan is lacking detail (much of that detail in my head, some not considered yet!). I plan to put Rockwool between all of the studs, but currently have no plans for HVAC or exact electrical system locations.

Take your time with both of those! HVAC design is a BIG subject. And electrical design isn't that complicated, but you can't do your electrical system the way electricians normally do it Studios are totally different, in that aspect.

What is the purpose of double top plates? Lack of knowledge on my part.

Stability. Structural integrity. The top plates support the ceiling load, and also keep the top of the wall stable, level, flat, etc. A single top plate can't take much weight before it starts bending, and even if there isn't much weight on it, it still could warp, twist, bend, or cup as time passes... especially if you are not controlling humidity properly. Plus: it's the law. I don't think I've ever seen any building code that allows single top plates on structural walls.

I'm struggling to think of ways to support that vaulted ceiling without a pillar in the middle of the room?

You could re-do the trusses, so that no support is needed.

Am I at a stage now where I should be getting advice from a structural engineer?

Probably not yet. Do the initial structural design first, complete, go over it a dozen times to make sure it does everything you want, then call the engineer to look at your plans, and at the physical building.

- Stuart -