John Sayers' Recording Studio Design Forum Archive

I am looking for some help on determining dimensions for a vocal booth that I will build inside the room.

H = 94" (7'10") to the drop ceiling

do not plan on doing any special construction to the exterior walls.

I will be building this myself and would like to stay away from angled walls and what not unless absolutely necessary.

As far as the floor of the vocal booth is concerned, can this be built straight on the concrete floor? Just lay my preferred flooring on top of the concrete per recommended manufacture spec? Or do I need to build a raised floor and try to isolate the booth even further?

Please help as I would like to get started on this project as soon as possible.

Gregwor wrote:I'd rotate your control room so that you are looking to the right of the picture. That way, your firing your speakers down the longer length of the room. I'd ditch the closet (it sounds like you're okay with that idea) and have the entrance to your ISO room straight in front of you. That way, you can maintain good sight lines to the singer through doors with glass in them.

Thanks for such a detailed response! The roation is a good suggestion, Only concern I have is that I was planning on using a large tv as a second monitor which would be placed above my desk and current monitor. If i did this with the booth directly in front of me then I would be blocking the view into the booth with the TV. I may just have to ditch the tv idea.

I am looking for some help on determining dimensions for a vocal booth that I will build inside the room.

This can be any size you want it to be as long as you don't have similar dimensions within 5% of one another. A small booth is never going to sound amazing, so maybe try to get a great control room size happening and see what dimensions that leaves for your ISO room.

Thanks, the 5% rule should help me narrow it down.

H = 94" (7'10") to the drop ceiling

What is above the dropped ceiling tile? How much room do you have up there? You need to have room for your HVAC silencers. If there isn't enough room for the silencers there, you might have to have an area to the side for them (like where you have the closet right now)

There are pipes and other infrastructure above ( I may have some clearance to put hvac silencers above at certain points though, I will have to look into this. How much additional clearance do you think I will need for this? I could do it on the side if necessary, just wouldn't look as pleasing to the eye. Also, do you have any good references for which fans to use, and what size fans depending on vocal booth size?

do not plan on doing any special construction to the exterior walls.

What are the exterior walls made out of? You may want to do an inside out room, but if your walls are concrete, you're going to have to make sure you build the wall far enough away from the exterior wall to allow for a low enough resonant frequency to provide you with the necessary transmission loss.

I will be building this myself and would like to stay away from angled walls and what not unless absolutely necessary.

That is no problem! You will probably have to build some 45 degree corner traps though!

Glad to hear I can get by with a simple construction. I absolutely plan on building bass traps for the corners!

As far as the floor of the vocal booth is concerned, can this be built straight on the concrete floor? Just lay my preferred flooring on top of the concrete per recommended manufacture spec? Or do I need to build a raised floor and try to isolate the booth even further?

Hard surfaces, specifically concrete, is the best material you can have for a floor! As little/thin underlay as you can in order to avoid creating a resonant chamber under the floor. Raising the floor will do nothing for you other than cause you more headache. Concrete floor = awesome. Build your walls on the concrete and you'll be set.

Awesome!

Please help as I would like to get started on this project as soon as possible.

I'd consider the project started as soon as you drew that sketch and posted on here. However, before you screw or nail any wood together, learn how to use a 3D modelling program (we all recommend SketchUp Make here on the forum) and design your space 110%. That way, you'll know exactly how big everything needs to be and where to put it. Finding room for HVAC is always a major issue in every build. Calculating everything to make that ventilation work takes some time, moreover calculating the sizes of your boxes to fit within the space you have available. If you don't do this, your room will suffer. I know you're anxious to get hammering in nails, but I assure you, you will probably end up finishing at the same time if you start now and make major mistakes along the way compared to planning it out (like every professional builder does in the world) and hopefully making no mistakes.

I have downloaded the sketch up online and will try to get a rough sketch going

What's your budget for the room?
This is an actual office building shared with other tenants?
Are you only ever going to be recording vocals and no other instruments?
Do you have access to the space right now?
If so, have you set up a speaker in the room and taken measurements outside your room to see how much isolation exists as is?
Do you have sound limitations placed on you by law?

Im honestly trying to build this as cheap as possible without suffering quality/isolation of the vocal booth build. Im Hoping I can keep it between 1-3k. Not sure how realistic that is, (I will find out as I create a more detailed plan), but I am only going to need to pay for materials to construct the booth, and treat the room. I am hoping that this space I am renting will be a stepping stone to a new and improved location in 2-5 years. So I am not trying to invest heavily into the space, I am not looking for a cutting edge, top of the line, studio build, I am just tyring to have it be functional and be able to create an accurate mix. I will be using it more as a project studio, to record vocals over beats I have produced (or others have produced). I am not going to be soundproofing the control room as I am not concerned with noise in and out of the main room. I am only concerned with isolating the vocal booth. I don't plan on tracking instruments inside the booth, just vocals. The construction of the exterior walls, i'm assuming, is one sheet of drywall on each side of a wooden framed wall. I was told by the owner that after 4pm there is no noise issue and that I do not need to worry about soundproofing the space. Before 4pm I will just use headphones if I need to mix or track. I do have access to the space now, my lease officially starts May 1st, but I dont plan on taking measurements outside the room as this will not be a concern.

You really should download and learn the basics of SketchUp Make and draw up your plan. Once you have a layout that you're happy with and no one on here has complaints about, calculate your HVAC needs and find room for your silencers. From there, figure out all of the fine details like (what doors are you going to buy or build, what will you use for glass, silica calculations, door seals, door hinges, door closers, ceiling joists, insulation, duct connectors, inline duct fans, lights, smoke/fire alarms, security, electrical (lights on one leg, outlets on another leg), control room type (LEDE, RFZ, etc, etc), speaker placement/mounting (sorbothane calculations, speaker ventilation), acoustic treatment (this will determine furniture placement as you will probably need 15+ inches worth of hangers/insulation on your rear wall), do ray tracing, low voltage wiring (how you will ensure you'll maintain your isolation while getting audio and digital lines into/out of the ISO room), etc, etc
As I'm sure you can see, if you just start building, you'll miss one of these things and then have to undo and change the build. It will then cost you more time and money in the end. Plan it down to every fine detail, then build.

I will try to use sketchup for the final build, I will probably post some more rough sketches free hand or other quick computer aided sketch until I am ready to do a final model for construction purposes if that is ok with everyone here. Could you provide me a rough sketch of the 15+ inches of hangers/isolation you are referring to on the rear wall. How would that look if I rotated the layout as you suggested. Im having a hard time visualizing that.
Greg

If i did this with the booth directly in front of me then I would be blocking the view into the booth with the TV. I may just have to ditch the tv idea.

How much additional clearance do you think I will need for this? I could do it on the side if necessary, just wouldn't look as pleasing to the eye. Also, do you have any good references for which fans to use, and what size fans depending on vocal booth size?

Im Hoping I can keep it between 1-3k.

Could you provide me a rough sketch of the 15+ inches of hangers/isolation you are referring to on the rear wall.

I will try to use sketchup for the final build

Gregwor wrote:

If i did this with the booth directly in front of me then I would be blocking the view into the booth with the TV. I may just have to ditch the tv idea.

I'd recommend orienting your screens side by side and if you are wanting producers or other musicians to see what you're doing, use video over cat6 adaptors. Personally, I have screens set up for musicians (in the booth or live room... and even in the control room) and it's helped so much. Being able to communicate bar numbers and not have to explain where they're off time has taken away so much frustration and saved so much time.
Thanks for the tip

How much additional clearance do you think I will need for this? I could do it on the side if necessary, just wouldn't look as pleasing to the eye. Also, do you have any good references for which fans to use, and what size fans depending on vocal booth size?

I haven't run the numbers, but let's say you're supplying your vocal booth with 4" round duct, you'll probably going to need 9-10" of height (assuming you can have pancake style silencers up there. For inline fans, it all comes down to how many CFM you need to push/pull through. Once you figure out those numbers (get your room layout, you'll then know your size. Aim for at least 6 air changes per hour and air velocity equal to or slower than 300 feet per minute), you can figure out what fan you need.
Ok thanks, I will revisit this after I get a sketchup model going

Im Hoping I can keep it between 1-3k.

I understand you not wanting to invest tons into a rental spot that you see as temporary. But with that budget, it probably won't look sexy! Once you SketchUp your design, you'll be able to call around and get pricing for things like glass and door material so that you can get a better idea of what materials will cost.
I may have to scale back on the "sexiness" level depending on how the numbers look

Could you provide me a rough sketch of the 15+ inches of hangers/isolation you are referring to on the rear wall.

Here on John's recording manual, there are some sketches of them!
http://johnlsayers.com/Recmanual/Titles/Acoustics2.htm
It might be cheaper to just use batts of Owens Corning R24 on your back wall as homasote (the stuff the insulation is wrapped around on the hangers) is pretty expensive stuff. You'll just need to have partitions as the R24 will compress itself and change it's density/performance.
Thanks for the link. Initially, I was just planning on building corner bass traps floor to ceiling. Is the entire wall with hangers necessary?

I will try to use sketchup for the final build

Don't try. Do. And start now. No more hand drawings. Force yourself to learn the stuff
It took me wayyy to long to do this, and it is not perfect, bare with me as I try to figure out how to use this program. I have attached a rough sketch of the room, and threw in the sketchup model of the vocal booth from this forum. I will not be using this exact plan as shown, but will modify it to fit my needs. My first question is, when I build my inside-out booth can I construct it as shown (right up against the wall) ? Or do i need to have air gap between booth and control room walls. Can I leave the control room walls as is if I am not concerned with sound traveling in/out of the control room?
Greg

I may have to scale back on the "sexiness" level depending on how the numbers look

Is the entire wall with hangers necessary?

It took me wayyy to long to do this, and it is not perfect, bare with me as I try to figure out how to use this program. I have attached a rough sketch of the room, and threw in the sketchup model of the vocal booth from this forum. I will not be using this exact plan as shown, but will modify it to fit my needs.

My first question is, when I build my inside-out booth can I construct it as shown (right up against the wall) ? Or do i need to have air gap between booth and control room walls. Can I leave the control room walls as is if I am not concerned with sound traveling in/out of the control room?

I'd rotate your control room so that you are looking to the right of the picture.

There is also what looks like a split A/C unit on the wall which I will be placing the couch against.

Im hoping someone could give me an optimal design/layout (dimensions) I could use for this space. I am not sure how large i should make the booth,

and how large to keep the control room based on my room dimensions.

would like to keep the construction as simple as possible as I will be building this myself and would like to stay away from angled walls and what not unless absolutely necessary.

As far as the floor of the vocal booth is concerned, can this be built straight on the concrete floor?

Just lay my preferred flooring on top of the concrete per recommended manufacture spec

Or do I need to build a raised floor and try to isolate the booth even further?

My first question is, when I build my inside-out booth can I construct it as shown (right up against the wall) ? Or do i need to have air gap between booth and control room walls. Can I leave the control room walls as is if I am not concerned with sound traveling in/out of the control room?

Soundman2020 wrote:

I'd rotate your control room so that you are looking to the right of the picture.

Definitely! That's a really nice sized room: Low ceiling, unfortunately, but around 400 ft2 floor area, so it would be possible to have the room oriented "sideways" (the way you show it in your diagram), but you would not be able to use diffusion in the rear wall with only 15' length to play with. On the other hand, if you rotate it as Greg suggested, there's PLENTY of room to the back of the room to be able to use diffusion. You can have deep bass trapping AND diffusion with that orientation. You can even get the couch into a much better acoustic location, well away from the rear wall, so your client / the producer / musicians / WAGs, etc will be able to hear the mix from the couch with much smoother response, closer to what you will be hearing at the mix position.

What is the minimum length of the room needed to use a diffusor? This will help me determine which orientation Id like to go with, and whether I want to use diffusion or not.

There is also what looks like a split A/C unit on the wall which I will be placing the couch against.

It might be better if you can get that moved to the middle of the rear wall (assuming you do rotate the orientation). If not, then that's OK too.

Yeah,I won't be moving this

Im hoping someone could give me an optimal design/layout (dimensions) I could use for this space. I am not sure how large i should make the booth,

Basically, as large as possible! Small rooms sound "boxy", and there's nothing you can do to fix that. The boxy sound will be in your mics, since it is ingrained into the actual acoustic response of the booth, and cannot be treated. It can be damped a little, but then the booth sounds dead and unpleasant. Larger booths have less of that problem. The larger it is, the better is sounds. The talent will also appreciate a larger, more spacious, airy booth to perform in. And you do have lots of space there to play with, so make it nice.

and how large to keep the control room based on my room dimensions.

I'd suggest that you use your available dimensions and adjust the length of the control room section to get a good modal response (room ratio), while trying to make the booth as big as possible. Juggle the two, until you have a large iso booth and a good room ratio for the CR.

would like to keep the construction as simple as possible as I will be building this myself and would like to stay away from angled walls and what not unless absolutely necessary.

Absolutely NOT necessary! It's a myth that rooms must have angled walls. They can be angled if you want, or if the room design calls for them, but there is no NEED to angle them. So that's goo news, I guess!

As far as the floor of the vocal booth is concerned, can this be built straight on the concrete floor?

Yes. In fact, the concrete floor IS the floor of the booth! You might perhaps want to put down laminate flooring to make it look nicer, but nothing more than that.

Just lay my preferred flooring on top of the concrete per recommended manufacture spec

Correct. Assuming it is laminate flooring, and that the concrete slab is already smooth, flat and level, then you'll just need the right underlay and the laminate. That goes in fast and easy.

Or do I need to build a raised floor and try to isolate the booth even further?

Only if you want to make your life miserable and trash your isolation! Here's why: http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewt ... f=2&t=8173

I just noticed that your low ceiling is a DROP ceiling, so your first order of business should be to get rid of that: it's no use to you for either the control room or the booth.

I was hoping I could keep the drop ceiling as I am not concerned with noise entering and exiting the control room. It would save me money, time, and energy to leave it in place. If I do keep it as is (drop ceiling) would it still be necessary to construct a wall between the vocal booth and control room? What If I just built an inside out vocal booth on the far end of the room? How much sound isolation do you think I would be able to achieve? I'm only looking to keep noise out of the microphone while recording. Would like to be able to playback audio through monitors in control room while tracking vocals. Worse case scenario, I turn the volume down while tracking to a low level. and turn it up for playback.

My first question is, when I build my inside-out booth can I construct it as shown (right up against the wall) ? Or do i need to have air gap between booth and control room walls. Can I leave the control room walls as is if I am not concerned with sound traveling in/out of the control room?

If that were my space, I would build a simple stud wall across the far end of the room, to divide off the vocal booth space, then build the booth within that space. The concept here is plain old "room in a room" construction. That "wall across the far end" completes the missing side of the outer-leaf, then build the booth itself as a simple stud frame (four walls plus ceiling) with drywall on only ONE side of the framing: Bingo! You have a well isolated 2-leaf MSM isolation system. However, since you don't know how those other three walls are built, and they are probably already typical stud-framed office walls (from what you say), then you'll probably need to increase the mass on those (by adding an extra layer of 5/8" drywall on top of what is already there, and sealing it all up air tight), leaving a larger air gap than normal, then also adding extra mass to the walls of your inner leaf. That way, you compensate for any possible 3-leaf issues.

I was hoping to save on costs by not doing the MSM room in room design. I don't plan on adding mass to the exterior walls. There are open office space and open storage space on all 4 sides of the room (the front of the room, and the two sides have other office space/common area on the other side of them, and the rear wall has storage area behind it) I was hoping to be able to just construct the inside out vocal booth inside the preexisting room, isolate it the best I can by proper construction methods and just make sure the vocal booth was ventilated properly. The main room has a drop ceiling and is not airtight to begin with so I wouldn't need to worry about extra ventilation there... I only plan on treating the control room for sound absorption and do not plan on sound proofing the control room.

- Stuart -

What is the minimum length of the room needed to use a diffusor? This will help me determine which orientation Id like to go with, and whether I want to use diffusion or not.

If I do keep it as is (drop ceiling) would it still be necessary to construct a wall between the vocal booth and control room?

What If I just built an inside out vocal booth on the far end of the room?

How much sound isolation do you think I would be able to achieve?

I was hoping to save on costs by not doing the MSM room in room design. I don't plan on adding mass to the exterior walls. There are open office space and open storage space on all 4 sides of the room (the front of the room, and the two sides have other office space/common area on the other side of them, and the rear wall has storage area behind it) I was hoping to be able to just construct the inside out vocal booth inside the preexisting room, isolate it the best I can by proper construction methods and just make sure the vocal booth was ventilated properly.

The main room has a drop ceiling and is not airtight to begin with so I wouldn't need to worry about extra ventilation there... I only plan on treating the control room for sound absorption and do not plan on sound proofing the control room.

Based on my plan above, would constructing the wall between the two still be necessary?

Since I have a drop ceiling, wouldnt that defeat the purpose of creating the wall to separate the two (sound would just travel over the wall?

At any rate, I've attached a very rough draft (not to scale, and dimensions are not planned yet).

The green wall has drywall on both sides. Would this be the correct way to build the two rooms?

1) Are these dimensions for the control room reasonable or is there a room l x w that would be more favorable design? I'd like to keep existing drop ceiling of 94" in control room

2) I have the vocal booth drawn out as a 6 x 10 booth (1 " between front and rear framing = 6" air gap between drywall) Should I extend the length longer than 10 feet?

The vocal booth will not be inside out as previously mentioned, but instead will be standard MAM design with 2 drywall layers with gg in b/w

I am also thinking about just installing a solid core door (no window to booth), and using video and monitor to see artist in vocal booth instead.

3) there is about a 15" soffit in the front of the room. I was thinking about removing the interior drywall and using that area to put the bass trap hangers. If the space in between is less than 15" can i still use smaller hangers to achieve similar effect with taming the low end?

4) If I remove the drywall as mentioned in step 3, would my new length extend to the drywall on the other side of the soffit (basically include the soffit area as part of the length of the control room?)