Floor plan Cube of Doom

[threedog72]

Decided to convert my work space into really bad acoustic practice / recording space. Room is 10.5' x 10' x 8', yeah I know. It's the best spot for me.

Guitar/Bass and keyboard at some point.

Live in a inline 4 plex. Main goal is isolation as only one wall will need full covering of Rockwool to keep sound in and neighbor noise out. The walls between spaces are definitely insulated as I only get muffled voices short of them yelling at each other. Hopefully I have enough posts to link my floor design later.

I've uploaded a floor plan of more or less what I have. Not the best but you can get the idea. If you're looking at Studio3, that wall borders my neighbor to the west. That's the only wall I feel needs floor to ceiling isolation as it only faces their kitchen area. I don't need to hear them or them hear me playing at fairly normal levels. I'm thinking of creating a 5" deep wall of Rockwool 2 x 2" sections with a 1" gap in between each section of insulation. What do you think? The wall with the window faces a backyard area, the wall in front of my desk faces my bathroom then kitchen and the wall on the right with the doors faces my bedroom and closet in studio room. I added 2 floor to ceiling traps in from of the isolation wall (their dimensions will be decided as I go along and they look like ass on the plan as I couldn't get a full triangle so just assume they're correct).

The wall with the window and closet door I think are a bit of a quandary as they're not fully across from each other so adding non reflection surfaces might be tricky. My desk will pretty much need to be close to the wall so I was thinking behind the monitors adding a trap of sort assuming they're ported. As well as possibly a cloud above as the room doesn't have a fan only a light fixture (size cloud not to sure about.

[Soundman2020]

Hi. Please read the forum rules for posting (click here). You seem to be missing a couple of things!

only one wall will need full covering of Rockwool to keep sound in and neighbor noise out

No it wont. That's a common myth: Insulation by itself does nothing at all to isolate, and you cannot isolate a room only one side, in exactly the same way that you cannot build a fish tank by putting glass on only one side of the frame...

The walls between spaces are definitely insulated as I only get muffled voices short of them yelling at each other.

Then the walls are not providing very much isolation at all! Not even 30 dB. There's something wrong with the they are built. You should look into that first, fix it, then worry about how to get the additional isolation that you need.

That's the only wall I feel needs floor to ceiling isolation as it only faces their kitchen area. I don't need to hear them or them hear me playing at fairly normal levels. I'm thinking of creating a 5" deep wall of Rockwool 2 x 2" sections with a 1" gap in between each section of insulation. What do you think?

What I think is that it would help to make your room sound a lot better inside, but it would do nothing at all to stop sound getting through the wall.

Think of it this way: if you spill water some place you didn't want it in your kitchen or bathroom, then you can use a sponge to mop it up, and that works very well. But if you take that same sponge and hold it across the end of the tap, then turn the tap on, the sponge does nothing at all to stop the water getting through. That's exactly how insulation works with sound: it's great for "mopping up sound some place you didn't want it", but does not stop sound getting through the wall.

I've uploaded a floor plan of more or less what I have.

Your room is oriented in the wrong direction. You don't have symmetry like that, and your speakers are firing along the short axis, not the long axis. Rotate the orientation 90°, so you are facing the window, and take the door off the closet. Fill the closet with insulation for bass trapping, or better still, remove that entire closet wall, which would extend the room quite a bit.

I was thinking behind the monitors adding a trap of sort assuming they're ported.

Not necessary, probably. What speakers are you using? Are they rear-ported or not?



- Stuart -

[threedog72]

No it wont. That's a common myth: Insulation by itself does nothing at all to isolate, and you cannot isolate a room only one side, in exactly the same way that you cannot build a fish tank by putting glass on only one side of the frame...

I was under the assumption that mass equaled better isolation. That's what I've been reading/watching etc. But I do get what you're saying though. In my case only the neighbor wall side and maybe the window side need some type of isolation treatment.

Then the walls are not providing very much isolation at all! Not even 30 dB. There's something wrong with the they are built. You should look into that first, fix it, then worry about how to get the additional isolation that you need.

Not really much I can do as it's just a wall between apartments.

I think is that it would help to make your room sound a lot better inside, but it would do nothing at all to stop sound getting through the wall.[

Think of it this way: if you spill water some place you didn't want it in your kitchen or bathroom, then you can use a sponge to mop it up, and that works very well. But if you take that same sponge and hold it across the end of the tap, then turn the tap on, the sponge does nothing at all to stop the water getting through. That's exactly how insulation works with sound: it's great for "mopping up sound some place you didn't want it", but does not stop sound getting through the wall.

I understand you on that, the room should sound as good as it can.

Your room is oriented in the wrong direction. You don't have symmetry like that, and your speakers are firing along the short axis, not the long axis. Rotate the orientation 90°, so you are facing the window, and take the door off the closet. Fill the closet with insulation for bass trapping, or better still, remove that entire closet wall, which would extend the room quite a bit.

I knew someone was going to say that. Even by only 6"? Not really much I can't do about the closet. Not my property to change. I can change the orientation but that still doesn't solve the neighbors wall and sound bleeding through But it sounds like not many options.

Not necessary, probably. What speakers are you using? Are they rear-ported or not?

I'm going to be going with either Yamaha HS5 or HS8's. On the budget friendly side for now.

Only other option is to move it into my bedroom which is 13' 6" x 10'. Even worse situation really as that's on the neighbors living room and front side of the apartments where people are walking and making noise. So the room I'm in needs to be used to it's sort of best ability lol. I'll rework the sketch.

Joe W

[Soundman2020]

I was under the assumption that mass equaled better isolation.

True, but insulation is not mass! Insulation is mostly air. Mass is something like drywall, MDF, brick, concrete, etc. To give you an idea, the density of drywall is around 650 kg/m3, OSB is around 750 kg/m3, and concrete is around 2400 kg/m. Compare that to typical insulation, which is around 30 kg/m3... So to get the same mass as an inch of concrete, you would need to have 80 inches thick insulation... and even then it would not be the same, since concrete is solid and air-tight, while insulation is soft and mostly made of air anyway.

So insulation by itself does practically nothing for isolation. However, when it is used as part of a SYSTEM, it greatly enhances the isolation of that system.

In my case only the neighbor wall side and maybe the window side need some type of isolation treatment.

You need to come up with a number: How many decibels of isolation do you need? You can do that by using a sound level meter to measure how loud the sounds are that you need to isolate (in the same room as the where the sounds are being made, about three feet away from the thing that is making the sound), then wait until the quietest time of night, when everything is really silent, and measure that level. The difference between those two numbers is "how much isolation you need".

Once you have that number, then you can look at various types of wall, door, window, ceiling, and floor construction, to see what materials and techniques you will need to attain that level of isolation.

Not really much I can do as it's just a wall between apartments.

Ahh, but there ARE things you can do!

Not really much I can't do about the closet. Not my property to change.

Taking the door off takes about two minutes, and putting it back on again when you leave takes another two minutes... not hard to do at all! Just pull the hinge pins, and you are done.

But it sounds like not many options.

If you absolutely cannot do anything at all to the walls, then yes, you have practically zero options. But check your lease; it probably says that you only need to hand over the apartment in the same condition it was when you got it, or BETTER condition, having repaired any damage you might have caused, blah blah blah. If that's the case, then there are things you can do that will give you much better isolation, and still comply with the contract. Those "things" might sound scary, but it's really not that hard to do, and will give yo a great increase in isolation, while not being noticeable at the tome you have to hand back the apartment, if you ever leave.

I'm going to be going with either Yamaha HS5 or HS8's. On the budget friendly side for now.

HS8's for sure! The frequency response goes down a lot lower, so the bass is tighter in general.

- Stuart -

[threedog72]

True, but insulation is not mass! Insulation is mostly air. Mass is something like drywall, MDF, brick, concrete, etc. To give you an idea, the density of drywall is around 650 kg/m3, OSB is around 750 kg/m3, and concrete is around 2400 kg/m. Compare that to typical insulation, which is around 30 kg/m3... So to get the same mass as an inch of concrete, you would need to have 80 inches thick insulation... and even then it would not be the same, since concrete is solid and air-tight, while insulation is soft and mostly made of air anyway.

So insulation by itself does practically nothing for isolation. However, when it is used as part of a SYSTEM, it greatly enhances the isolation of that system.

I think I understand now good sir. Insulation is just a piece of the puzzle. Sheetrock might be an option to thicken up that wall on the neighbors side

need to come up with a number: How many decibels of isolation do you need? You can do that by using a sound level meter to measure how loud the sounds are that you need to isolate (in the same room as the where the sounds are being made, about three feet away from the thing that is making the sound), then wait until the quietest time of night, when everything is really silent, and measure that level. The difference between those two numbers is "how much isolation you need".

Once you have that number, then you can look at various types of wall, door, window, ceiling, and floor construction, to see what materials and techniques you will need to attain that level of isolation.

Looks like I'll need a decibel meter. I see some app based ones but I doubt those are truly accurate. Any recommendations on the cheap? lol. But I do see where you're steering me.

Ahh, but there ARE things you can do!

I believe their definitely are. Just need to come up with a plan for those options.

Taking the door off takes about two minutes, and putting it back on again when you leave takes another two minutes... not hard to do at all! Just pull the hinge pins, and you are done.

I guess I'm wondering what removing the closet door will do as it's only a 30" opening to a 6' x 24" x 8' closet. Wouldn't the door opening block any worthwhile idea of extending the room?

If you absolutely cannot do anything at all to the walls, then yes, you have practically zero options. But check your lease; it probably says that you only need to hand over the apartment in the same condition it was when you got it, or BETTER condition, having repaired any damage you might have caused, blah blah blah. If that's the case, then there are things you can do that will give you much better isolation, and still comply with the contract. Those "things" might sound scary, but it's really not that hard to do, and will give yo a great increase in isolation, while not being noticeable at the tome you have to hand back the apartment, if you ever leave.

Well, the landlord is a friend of mine. So I might be able to get away with thickening up the walls if adding sheetrock will cut down on some decibels in and out. Gears are turning....Wondering how thick the sheets should be in general

HS8's for sure! The frequency response goes down a lot lower, so the bass is tighter in general.

Ok, works for me...

- Joe

[threedog72]

Guess my times up lol

[threedog72]

@Soundman2020

Ended up turning the room around, I see what you meant by the closet etc. Probably won't be able to thicken them walls up. So I have decided to build a isolation box for my guitar cabinet. At least that will help with removing possible noise from getting into the mics while playing/recording. Still going to plan on treating the room as best I can once I get some REW measurements after purchase of appropriate equipment

[Soundman2020]

Still going to plan on treating the room as best I can once I get some REW measurements after purchase of appropriate equipment

You might find this helpful: http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewt ... =3&t=21122


- Stuart -