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How much space should I reserve for a studio?

Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 9:18 am
by headnodders
Hello,

I hoping someone can help me out here. I am completely renovating a floor in the house and I am trying to figure out how much space I should set aside with the designer for a control room. We are working with 10 foot ceiling. What is the smallest recommended width and length for 8 inch speakers assuming I don't want to use more than 400 feet square. (If push comes to shove I can use a bit more than 400.

- All the finishing will be dry wall. Standard in Canada. No brick or concrete. This means we can be creative with wall angles.
- Here is a link to the speakers I will be using. https://www.genelec.com/studio-monitors ... io-monitor

Thank you for your help in advance. I am simply looking for basic acceptable measurements so I can decide where this room will fit in the design plans.

cheers

p.s if the speaker size I am aiming for is to big...7 inch help?

Re: How much space should I reserve for a studio?

Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 11:41 am
by Gregwor
So you only want a control room? You'll only be mixing?
What is the smallest recommended width and length
ITU-R BS.1116-3 states you must have at least 20 square meters for your control room so you have more than enough room. It states that you shouldn't have more than 60 square meters. Your 400 sits near the middle of their recommended size which is great news!
Here is a link to the speakers I will be using. https://www.genelec.com/studio-monitors ... io-monitor
The size of your speakers does not really matter. So don't worry about that. The only thing about most Genelecs is that they have a pretty weird shaped front baffle. It is recommended that you build your control room in the RFZ vein at which point you will be flush mounting your monitors. The only tough part you'll face is cutting your soffit wall to match the profile of your monitors. I'd recommend using a bezel around your speakers so that you can easily access your frame work to modify it in the future if you change your speakers. It will also cost less to try to cut the bezel to perfection over and over ;-)
All the finishing will be dry wall. Standard in Canada. No brick or concrete. This means we can be creative with wall angles.
The first thing you should do is draw up your plans in SketchUp. I hope you don't have a tight deadline because planning the control room will take a while. Especially if you're not up to speed on the design side of things. This forum is a self help resource, so we are all here to help one another. However, I recommend you invest SEVERAL hours to reading everything you can on this forum. Several hours to learn how to use SketchUp Make and then several hours to draw up your plans, post them, get criticism, make changes, draw the pans, post them, get criticism, etc, etc, etc. THEN get your designer up to speed on your needs. Then start physically building the place.

First things first, yes, drywall is good. Old school fire rated heavy drywall is best. Angled walls are not good. A rectangular room is the best for several reasons. First being that it is easy to build. Second is that is allows you to calculate the modal response of your room so you have a starting point for treating it during the design stage.

Secondly, while I design and build my personal studio, I'm working in my in laws basement. Hearing dogs walking around, my kids partying up stairs, people walking around, the furnace turning on and off, people talking, etc drives me CRAZY. I was doing some REW measurements a few days ago as I was trying to tune the room some more (which is actually really good now) and I wanted to scream and tell everyone to shut up and leave haha Having said that, even if you're JUST mixing, you really should consider the isolation portion of your design. With that though comes way more design, time and cost. A "sound proof" room (I use that term in quotations because there is no such thing as a perfectly isolated room.. even though the general public assume it to be a real thing) needs another room (including ceiling) built inside your existing room, not touching anywhere except the floor. If your floor is NOT concrete, then that causes more issues.. major ones, not only for the isolation factor, but the acoustic performance of your room.

Third point: HVAC. Unless you're mixing on a laptop and have no acoustic treatment (insulation), you should probably consider having an appropriate amount of fresh air. Until you figure out your exact internal room dimensions, you can't really figure this out. With a "sound proof" control room, you'll have to have homemade duct silencers. These take up a ton of space and typically are hard to find homes for in your design. That's why you HAVE to draw up your plans in SketchUp. You need to figure out all of that stuff before you lift a finger building.

Fourth point: In order to have your room sound good, you'll also need a ton of space for acoustic treatment. These acoustic treatment walls are the angled looking walls. If you google or search the forum for RFZ control room, you'll see that the front walls are angled in order to deflect the sound from your soffit mounted speakers towards the back wall where they are absorbed and deflected back to hit your ears diffuse at least 20 dB quieter and at least 20ms later. Every room's problems stem from the lower octaves. That means bass traps are your best friend. The rear wall of your control room is the best place to deal with them. So, I'd recommend to have your rear wall at least 20" deep... deeper the better. Luckily you have 10ft ceilings. But, once you build another room in that, that height drops. Having said that, MOST people build their rooms using John's awesome "inside out" technique in order to utilize the most space.

You'll probably have to use 2 ply 7 1/4" LVL studs to build your inside out ceiling skeleton with that amount of width (check what your building inspector requires you to provide since this is an engineered wood)

Go do some reading around the forum and hit us back with some questions. It would also be ideal to draw up your space in SketchUp so we can check it out!

Greg

Re: How much space should I reserve for a studio?

Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 12:13 pm
by Soundman2020
I am trying to figure out how much space I should set aside with the designer for a control room.
There are a few documents that lay out the exact technical specifications that you need for a "critical listening room", which is what a control room is. One of those is ITU BS.1116-3 Google it, and download it. Skip the fist six chapters as they are not applicable, but there's a few chapters on the room itself, the layout, and the acoustic response that is absolutely needed for a control room. Pages 12 to 22 should have you covered. One of those specs is the floor area. The minimum area recommended is 20m2 for a stereo room, or 30m2 for a multi.channel room (5.1, 7.1, etc.). That works out to roughly 215 ft for stereo, and 320 ft2 for multi-channel. In both cases, the maximum area is 60m2 (around 650 ft2). Of course, this does not mean that a room of only 214 ft2 will be terrible, while 216 will be amazing!! It just means that there's an optimal size, and smaller rooms will require more treatment to get good results. I have designed rooms from around 120 ft (! :shock: ) to around 500 ft2, and it seems to me that the best results are in the region 180 ft2 to around 300 ft2.

There's also the issue of height and room volume, which go together: the general rule of thumb is that you want at least 40m3 of room volume (aprox. 1400 ft3), a tthe bare minimum. A 180 ft2 room with a 7 foot ceiling wold be lousy, even though the floor area is fine. A 220 ft2 room with a 10 foot ceiling is 2,200 ft3, which is great. The specs for critical listening rooms don't actually specify the height, but the decay times are all indexed to a hypothetical room that has a volume of 100 m3. Think of a room measuring 295 ft2 with a 12 foot ceiling, and that's the reference volume. Or 320 ft2 with an 11 foot ceiling. Or 350 ft2 with a 10 foot ceiling.
We are working with 10 foot ceiling.
:thu: That's the final finished ceiling height, right? In other words, inside the completed inner-leaf, after all the isolation has been completed, but before treatment?
What is the smallest recommended width and length for 8 inch speakers
Speakers are mostly irrelevant in choosing the size of the room: They are important when deciding on the layout, geometry, and treatment of the room, yes, but don't have much influence on the size of the room. In fact, if you check the document I linked you too, there's no reference at all to the size of the speaker: only to the frequency response and directional characteristics (on axis, +/-3db, 40 Hz to 16 kHz, pairs matched to within +/-1 dB, 250 Hz to 2 kHz, etc), as well as distortion, transient response, dynamic range, etc. But nothing at all about size. Pretty much any good quality studio reference monitor will work.
- All the finishing will be dry wall. Standard in Canada. No brick or concrete. This means we can be creative with wall angles.
For a control room, the best strategy is usually a purely rectangular room, with angled surfaces as needed by the design concept you use. Eg, if you go with an RFZ style room (highly recommended!) then you would need to angle some surfaces at the front of the room, but not necessarily the walls themselves.

Also, have you considered building your room "inside-out"? There are advantages to that....
- Here is a link to the speakers I will be using.
Nice! I have used the 8050 (and some of its siblings) in a couple of rooms, with good results. So I'm guessing you wont be using a sub? With those things, you don't really need a sub (unless you want to mix earthquakes and canon fire...).
Thank you for your help in advance. I am simply looking for basic acceptable measurements so I can decide where this room will fit in the design plans.
Use one of these Room Ratio calculators to figure out the best dimensions for your room:

http://www.bobgolds.com/Mode/RoomModes.htm

http://amroc.andymel.eu/

Both of those are very good, and will help you to decide how best to build your room. They give you tons of information that is really useful to help figure out the best dimensions. But basically, you should worry about maximizing the room volume while getting the smoothest modal spread.

However, designing a high-quality control room is a lot more than just getting the right-sized room and putting great speakers in it!

I would suggest that, in addition to choosing the room size and dimensions, also consider the basic deisgn concept that you want to use: Do you want RFZ, CID, NER, MR, LEDE, etc. Once you have settled on the design concept, then adjust the dimensions accordingly, and start to plan your initial treatment. If the room is large enough, then you can use numeric-based diffusion. If not, then you are stuck with only absorption and reflection.

Also, if this room is going to be part of a complete studio with other rooms around it, such as a live room, vocal booth, drum room, iso booth, machine room, etc. then do consider access paths, sight lines, traffic flow, door openings, etc.


- Stuart -

Re: How much space should I reserve for a studio?

Posted: Thu Feb 22, 2018 3:07 am
by headnodders
WoW John I came to you years ago when I was building my first room. The one I am sitting now hehe. It helped me so much to get started. I want to take a minute and thank the both of you for this help. Now that I am moving, I am trying to make sure I am refreshed on all this information. I will most probably come to you John for professional paid services to finish the design after I have decided roughly where the new studio will be in the plans and you've answered that. Some more information on our approach:

- We are house music producers and this music will be played in after hour clubs with HUGE subs. I think we may be making more low end noise than canons and thunders haha
- The ceilings will be 10feet after finishing
- We will use two pairs of speakers for referencing. The Genelecs and the currently owned Adams A7Xs

Anyhow I got the info I need for now. It is highly likely that this room gets build in the backyard as an extension of the current building because there is ample space. Greg I totally agree with you on the sound proofing part. I use Sonopan for my current room. Not sure if you've heard of it before. Compressed fibreglass used for home theatres. Alright! Thank again I will message you guys privately once things are ready for advancement.