John Sayers' Recording Studio Design Forum Archive

Hello,

I am doing a design and build for a friend, who is a producer/singer, to convert their spare bedroom to a studio. The room is kind of odd shaped and has a large closet (4'x10'). Also there is carpet on the floor of the whole room and closet and it it located on the 12th floor of a large condo building in down town LA. I have done a few rooms like this (good for recording and producing Beats) but am at a loss for where to place the listening position given the requirements he wants in the room.

REQUIREMENTS:
1. Be able to record good sounding vocals in the closet.
2. have a good sounding room for making music on the computer (making hip hop beats mostly).
3. Have a Couch behind the engineer/producer position for people to be able to listen at.
4. The couch needs to have a pullout Queen Bed (60"W x 72"L when Opened) for occasional overnight guests.
5. There needs to be a TV that is viewable from the Couch (Most likely hung from ceiling above listening position)

What is cheap and easily available in terms of materials (to the best of my knowledge) is Roxul Safe n Sound. I usually work with and have tools for metal studs. Both for building frames of panels and framing absorption walls etc. Using wood, would most likley require me to buy tools and would not be best if can be avoided.

ISOLATION: He is pretty cool with the neighbors and would like to at least begin by just addressing acoustics. If the sound leakage becomes an issue in the future we will address it then, but he plays music loud already and doesn't have issues. As for the closet vocal booth, he has said he would prefer the engineer just work in headphones when recording or turn the volume down low and does not want to have to fix the closet walls in order to isolate them from the control room.

In the attached drawing of the room Grey areas (the entrance, perimeter of the room, and the closet have 8' high ceilings) the white area (center, has a 10' high ceiling). The Wall parallel from the closet is a glass window ceiling to floor.

I have also attached my intended design for the closet booth, which I would also appreciate feedback on. My main concern though is how to best layout the control room to make it sound as good as possible given the requirements.

Hi. Please read the forum rules for posting (click here). You seem to be missing a couple of things!

That said, a couple of quick comments:

Also there is carpet on the floor of the whole room

Obviously, that's the first thing that will have to be changed! The carpet has to go, if you want anything like decent acoustics in the room.

1. Be able to record good sounding vocals in the closet.

Well, that's not going to happen! It's a closet: there is nothing you can do that will make it sound NOT like a closet. There is no statistical reverberant field in such a tiny room, no modal support for even the bottom end of the vocal range... it will always sound small and boxy, like all other closets, no matter what you do. The best plan for such tiny room is to absorb the hell out of three or four sides of the room, and liven up the other two or three sides. It will still sound boxy, but slightly disguised.

2. have a good sounding room for making music on the computer

That can be achieved, provided that some of the other "requirements" are relaxed!

3. Have a Couch behind the engineer/producer position for people to be able to listen at.

A very SMALL couch, perhaps.

4. The couch needs to have a pullout Queen Bed (60"W x 72"L when Opened) for occasional overnight guests.

This is likely not on the cards, and will have to be scrapped. The room is not big enough to have the mix position in the correct location, as well as leaving space behind the couch to access the closet, and also have enough space for a pull-out bed.

5. There needs to be a TV that is viewable from the Couch (Most likely hung from ceiling above listening position)

That can go on the front wall, between the speakers.

What is cheap and easily available in terms of materials (to the best of my knowledge) is Roxul Safe n Sound

That's fine.

Using wood, would most likley require me to buy tools and would not be best if can be avoided.

Unavoidable. You will need wood slats inside the closet, to try to get a little bit of life into it. Metal isn't an option here, due to the size and weight of the slats that you'd need. I doubt you have tools for cutting 3/4" thick steel plate in any case...

If the sound leakage becomes an issue in the future we will address it then,

As long as he realizes that the entire room would need to be done all over again if there's a need to isolate. He's aware of that? You already told him that he would lose around 6" on each side of the room, including the ceiling, if he needs to isolate, and that making the room a foot smaller in each dimension would totally change the acoustic response, requiring a complete re-design? In other words, it will cost him at least twice as much to isolate afterwards, as compared to if he isolates now? As long as he's aware of the double cost and much smaller room, that's fine.

The Wall parallel from the closet is a glass window ceiling to floor.

That's the front wall of the control room. There are no other options here. The mix position will face that window, with the speakers tight up against the glass, except for a 4" panel of Safe-n-Sound between the rear corner of the speaker and the glass, and the engineer's chair about 60" from the glass. Speakers about 3'6" from the side walls and 48" above the floor (measured to the acoustic axis, of course; not edges of the box, or the center of the box, or the tweeter). Superchunk bass traps in both front corners, measuring at least 24" on the two short sides, but 36" would be better. So most of that glass will be covered with acoustic treatment. You will also need to build a wall on the right side of that area, in line with the short wall labeled " 3' " on your diagram, in order to get the critically important symmetry. That only needs to extend back about 4' towards the door. (You can build that with metal studs and thick drywall.)

I have also attached my intended design for the closet booth, which I would also appreciate feedback on.

You have it set up backwards! You have the mic facing a reflective surface (pegboard) behind the talent. And the REAR end of the mic is facing deep absorption. It should be the other way around: The mic should be facing towards an absorbent (or mostly absorbent) surface, and the other side of the room (the side that the INSENSITIVE end of the mic is pointing towards) should be mostly reflective, partly diffusive, and partly absorptive. Take a look at how vocal booths are done in high-end studios: there's very often a large glass window in the direction that the mic is facing away from, while there's absorption or a mix of mostly absorption with some light diffusion in the direction it is facing (behind the talent). The "booth" is tiny as it is, so don't make it even more boxy sounding by killing the only place where you might get a bit of ambience. Also don't trash the recording acoustic by placing a highly reflective surface in the same direction the mic is facing.

My main concern though is how to best layout the control room to make it sound as good as possible given the requirements.

There's a direct conflict there: the requirements are unrealistic if you want good acoustics! I would love to have a brand new Lamborghini and also a Ferrari, with the requirement that they don't cost more than US$ 2,000 each, but that's not going to happen! The "requirement" is unrealistic. I'd love to have a studio in my bathroom with the requirement that it must have the same acoustics as the main live room at Abbey Road, but that's not going to happen either! The laws of physics make my "requirement" into nothing more than a hilarious joke!

So I'd suggest that you need to bring your friend down to earth: He can have SOME of those things, but not ALL of them, because some are mutually exclusive, and some are plain impossible. He can set all the "requirements" he wants, but he simply will not get those that are impossible, because o the way the universe works...

The two impossible ones are:

1) It is impossible to fit a bed that is 6 feet long into an area that is only 8 feet long when you also need 6 feet of clearance at one end to fit the desk and mix position in, and 2 feet at the other for access to the closet! It will not fit, period. You cannot park a Mack truck in your kitchen for the same reason; it is physically impossible to make it fit.

2) It is impossible to make a closet sound good for recording: the laws of physics prevent it, because they do not permit the acoustic response that is needed for that. Regardless of how you treat it, it will always sound "boxy". You can make it mostly dead, but it will still have a "boxy" sound to it. You cannot get around that, because of the way the universe works.

- Stuart -

Thank you for your quick response Stewart.

I have added my location to my profile, and I believe the only other things I was missing were budget, which is a little vague but I believe around $2000 to $3600. Possible could stretch up to 5k but that will be difficult to convince. Lastly the SPL is 96 db when playing back loud, and 85 on average.

One thing I failed to mention is that for the control room, it would be Ideal to do most if not all the acoustics in modular form so they could be repurposed in future housing.

I think thats all I missed.


When I say sound good I just mean good enough to get workable final takes. I have recorded vocals in smaller and worse treated rooms. This is hip hop so the vocal is best dead sounding (the room). Most engineers out here like to do the "sauce" in the box anyway. as far as boxiness goes, I understand its not Ideal but would tuned absorption help address some modal issues in the low end of the vocal spectrum around 100-250hz (i know a voice can go lower but getting that area sounding good I think would be a huge help in the boxy wars correct me if im wrong)

As for the carpet. I don't believe he will want to get rid of it. that sounds like it could eat up a good portion of the budget in demo and adding hardwood. if I need to recommend it I will but I just don't fully understand why its a must.

As for the couch. You are correct there doesnt seem to be a way to do it in this orientation. I was kind of hoping to be able to place the speakers on one of the perpendicular walls to the window but didnt think that would work out well acoustically. Just to confirm there is no way to orient the room that way and get good results? If not then I guess hes gonna have to go fouton on the left wall of the orientation you suggested.

As for the panels behind the speakers if they are on the window, any suggestions for hanging them? or will they need to be freestanding?

Thanks,

Tyler

Is This Along the lines of what you were suggesting Stewart?


OVERALL:
Booth Close Up: Brown are slats (except door), Green is Roxul, Pink is OC Fluffy Stuff
CR Wall Views:

I have added my location to my profile,

Lastly the SPL is 96 db when playing back loud, and 85 on average.

Is that A-weighted, or C-weighted? Measured with fast integration or slow? It makes a difference....

One thing I failed to mention is that for the control room, it would be Ideal to do most if not all the acoustics in modular form so they could be repurposed in future housing.

That can probably be done. Maybe not really "modular" in the sense that you can just wheel out the entire unit, but at least in the sense that you can take it apart, and take the parts out.

would tuned absorption help address some modal issues in the low end of the vocal spectrum around 100-250hz

That's the problem with small rooms: There is no modal support in the low end! That's the entire issue. In a large room, there is modal support down to very low frequencies, and there are multiple modes for each note throughout the entire vocal range. The problem with small rooms, is simply a LACK of modal support: The just aren't any modes at all in the lows, and the precious few that are around, are in the low end of the mid range, right where the sparsity and unevenness is going to be heard. Some people have their understanding backwards, thinking that the problem with modes is that there are too many of them, and they try eliminate modes: But in reality, the problem with small rooms is that there are not enough modes!

In that booth, with useful treatment, the Schroeder frequency is going to be well above 200 Hz. perhaps around 220 Hz: In other words, the modal issues are going to be very audible. In a larger room, that would likely be down close to 100 Hz, even below that, but for a closet, there just aren't enough modes in the lows and low mids!

There's not much point in trying to damp modes that aren't there... So there's little point in building tuned devices to treat low end modal issues that aren't there...

So the best bet is to treat the room to be dead, with general broad-band porous absorption, to kill the non-modal stuff. But considering that it is the modal response that "shapes" the entire acoustic signature of the room, to a large extent, the damage is done and can't be repaired.

(i know a voice can go lower but getting that area sounding good I think would be a huge help in the boxy wars correct me if im wrong)

Not really... The boxy sound is a consequence of the general acoustic signature of the room, as mentioned above. You can't get rid of it, since it is inherent to the shape and size of the room. It will always be there. You can disguise it in the mix to a certain extent, by adding effects that make it sound like a larger room (reverb), but even then you aren't really fixing it: It's like you have a hamburger that tastes lousy: you can put salt and ketchup on it to disguise the bad taste, but then it isn't hamburger any more! Now it is salty ketchup, with an underlying bad hamburger flavor...

Another food analogy: If your soup is too salty, you cannot get the extra salt out of the soup! You can water ti down, sure, but then it is just diluted salty soup.... That's not the same as soup with normal salt....

As for the carpet. I don't believe he will want to get rid of it. that sounds like it could eat up a good portion of the budget in demo and adding hardwood. if I need to recommend it I will but I just don't fully understand why its a must

Let me illustrate simply, with two graphs:

This is the absorption curve for typical carpet, as measured in one of the world's leading acoustic testing labs:


This is the absorption curve that a typical small room needs:

Compare the two. You will notice that carpet does the exact opposite of what you need in a small room. Small rooms need a lot of bass trapping (the smaller the room is, the more it needs), some controlled absorption in the mid range on a descending curve (more at low mids, less at high mids), and little to no absorption in the high end. Carpet does the total opposite: It sucks out all of the high end wonderfully, absorbs some of the mid range randomly on an ascending curve, and does nothing at all to the low end. So not only is it useless, it actually makes things worse. Carpet will make your room sound dull, boomy, muddy, lifeless, and dry. On drums, for example, it will suck out your crash and ride, wreak havoc on the hi-hat and some of the snare, trash the toms, and make the kick sound like a wet cardboard box inside a concrete pipe....

Control rooms need to have neutral acoustics. Take a look at ITU BS.1116-3 to get an idea of how tight a control room needs to be kept, acoustically. It is flat impossible to achieve that with carpet.

In addition to that, it is on the floor, which means it destroys the reflections from the floor that your brain relies on to build an "acoustic picture" of the room. All your life, wherever you go, your ears are exactly the same height above the floor, and your brain is very, very accustomed to figuring out the acoustic signature of the room based on the reflections it hears from the floor. If you sit down, your brain recognizes that, and adjusts it's "image" of the room accordingly. It does not use the ceiling or the walls for that, because the distance from your ears to the walls and ceiling changes all the time, many times per second as you walk around, so the "signature" is not constant or consistent. Ceilings are different heights, and when you walk outdoors, there is no ceiling at all! But there is still a floor, and it is still the same distance from your ears as every other floor, and your brain is very sensitive to that clue.

If you have carpet on the floor, your brain no longer has any reflections to use for this. So you have a decreased sense of directionality, and frequency response too.

So forget the carpet. You'll find it really hard to have a good acoustic setup in a room with carpet on the floor. Take a look at some photos of high-end pro studios: how many of those have thick carpet on the floor? There's a reason for that...

Just to confirm there is no way to orient the room that way and get good results?

Not really, no. The two sides of the room are very, very different acoustically: The glass on the one side is highly reflective and "live", the close on the other side is dull and dead... No symmetry.

If not then I guess hes gonna have to go fouton on the left wall of the orientation you suggested.

I would not put it on the left wall! That will screw up the room symmetry again. Unless you can put an identical one on the right!

Is This Along the lines of what you were suggesting

The desk is too deep, by the looks of it: Use a smaller desk, so the chair can be a bit closer to the front wall. The way you have it now, the engineer's head will be too far back in the room: too close to the rear wall.

- Stuart -