John Sayers' Recording Studio Design Forum Archive

Hello all,
I just finished building an L-Shaped room within a room in my garage (yes, L-Shaped on purpose because I needed part of it for my wood shop where i build instruments, but now realize I have an L-Shaped conundrum, OYE) I will be using this room for recording in the two wings and have started to set up my mix position in the corner. See drawn diagram and pics.
Here's the background:
I was thinking all along that I would have my mix desk against the 17' 9" wall in the corner with my back towards the door, and started treating the walls accordingly. But, after watching doing some research i am thinking that having a wall on the left and a room on the right that i will be getting inaccurate mix results. So, i turned the desk to be caddy corner thinking that at least i'll have symmetry to the sides of my listening position. But, I have read in some research that mixing in the corner isn't a good idea either. BTW I plan on putting bass traps in the corners and have diffusers and absorbers to "spread around". The dimensions are on the diagram and i have also include two pics.
Anyone want to offer some advice on things to consider? Should i keep it caddy corner? Should I turn the desk to face the 17' 9" wall in the corner and build some sort of 'gobo" to the right so i can take advantage of the 20' wing?
Thank you very much for reading, Any advice would be sincerely appreciated.
Orange Dog

Hi Again folks,
Just as a clarification since my post was possibly a bit convoluted and since I seem to have a couple of questions.
1. Should I go diagonal and treat that back point behind my head where the two walls meet?
2. Should I turn the desk so the speakers face the back 8' 9" wall and build some sort of gobo to the right?
3. Tear it down and start from scratch or another option?

Thanks,
OD

Is it something I said or didn't say that is keeping people from not offering any wisdom on this query?
Thanks,

There is an announcement at the top of the forum about what to do to assure getting as many responses as possible.
The announcement leads to this post (click here). You seem to be missing something important!




- Stuart -

Hi Stuart,
Thank you very much. It looks as though I broke the cardinal rule which was the terms of posting. My apologies. My second mistake was to skip the location entry in my profile. All fixed now.
Thanks,

All fixed now.

You have a complex situation, with no easy solution! Probably not what you wanted to hear...

The issue with facing the corner is two-fold (multi-fold, actually, but two is enough...): First is the issue of bass: Corners are notorious bass-heavy monsters, that growl and roar loudly in the low end. You've probably noticed that bass tends to "build up" close to a wall: if you walk around a room where there's a good sound system playing, you'll notice that the bass gets exaggerated as you approach a wall. Well, think of it this way: A corner is a place where TWO walls meet! So you get double the effect. Multiplied, in some senses. If you try to mix in that setting, the bass will sound fantastic! You'll be able to do mixes that sound really blasting, sound top-notch.... but then when you listen to the mix any other place (in your car, on ear buds, radio, club, church, etc.) it will sound terrible! "Thin", "tinny", "light", "glaring", "harsh", etc. Because you will have naturally and subconsciously pulled down the bass in your mix so that it sounds nice with the huge reinforcement from the corner, but any other location where that corner is NOT present, will sound bad. Your mixes won't "translate".

Related to the above is modal response: any room has a series of natural resonances where certain frequencies are greatly reinforced, due to the dimensions of the room. Those are frequencies where the wave fits in perfectly between two (or more) walls, forming "standing waves" in the room. The issue is that all possible standing waves terminate in corners! So if you have your head and speakers in a corner, you'll be getting hit by all the standing wave artifacts, all of which will be in the low end, compounding your "bass heavy" problem.

That's the first issue. Secondly is the problem of early reflections and symmetry. With walls that close to your ears, and at those angles, you'll be getting some rather major early reflection problems, that cannot be fully fixed with treatment. There will be some major comb-filtering going on, with some rather complex patterns, from a combination of edge diffraction, SBIR, phase shifting, delays, and just general mayhem.

The best possible location for your desk, is facing the wall on the bottom, labeled ' 8'9" ', but you have a door on that wall, so I guess it isn't possible. That leaves only one other location: facing to the right, towards the wall labeled ' 8'7" '. It's not ideal, but it's the only real option.

Another major issue: Get your speakers off the desk! That's about the worst possible place to have them: Put them on stands behind the desk. Massive, rigid, heavy stands. Get those tight up against the new front wall, with just a 4" gap between the rear corner of the speaker and the wall, and put a 4" panel of OC-703 in that gap.

Speakers should never be on the desk, console meter bridge, or dog box. Yes, you do see that in photos of many studios, but it's either a mistake done by someone with no understanding of acoustics, or done on purpose by someone who DOES understand acoustics, deliberate, to proved a lousy situation that sounds more like typical domestic speakers in a typical domestic setting. That's one reason why NS-10s are still so popular in studios: not because they sound so good, but because they sound so bad! If you can make your mix sound good on a pair of Ns-10s sitting on the console bridge, it will probably sound great anywhere else, since that setup is pretty lousy, all around.

The issues with putting speakers on desks are, once again, multi-fold, including are things like early-early sound (that arrives at your ears BEFORE the direct sound from the speakers which sounds impossible but is very real, and very possible), early reflections from the desk itself, comb filtering, edge diffraction, and a general mess in the mid range.

So get your speakers off the desk, onto stands, and set them up in the correct geometric arrangement with the listening position (which is NOT the famous equilateral triangle that you see touted so much everywhere...)

BTW I plan on putting bass traps in the corners and have diffusers and absorbers

Yes to bass traps (Definitely! Large ones, and lots of them!). No to diffusers. Your room is not big enough to be able to use most types of diffusion successfully.

- Stuart -

WOW! Thanks for all the great information. I appreciate you taking the time to help me out.
This is my second build, last one was a great 2 room design, but seemed to be cramped after a while so with this one I figured i'd like an open design.
Well, in doing this I made some obvious problems for myself that i will figure out. OYE!

I have moved the desk to not be caddy corner anymore and since I don't want to put the desk in the "wing” with the bookshelves, here is what I am thinking and i would sincerely value your opinion on this.

Since technically, I only need a “solid” “neutral” mixing environment while i am actually mixing and “mastering” here is what I am thinking:

I saw a post here the other day where a guy made swinging “baffles” "absorbers" that could be folded back against the wall while recording certain instruments and extended out for other applications ie. mixing "mastering”. I put “mastering" in quotes because i’m not a mastering engineer but do do light mastering on my tracks for TV/Film etc. Anyway,

If I make a few hinged panels that swing out from the wall when mixing and mastering and are folded back normally while tracking. Obvioulsy there is a big "mass" difference from left wall, but does this matter? What other issues are there to think about in this scenario?

I have posted a new pic with some panels to demonstrate my idea roughly. t would be around where they would be if they were swung out. Of course they would go floor to ceiling and be longer along the desk. Possibly 3 panels deep? or possibly coming from front wall and behind wall that meet in the middle?
What do you think of this?

Id like to talk about this diffusion issue to but maybe at a later time after figuring a "fix" for the mix position...

BTW. Thank you, i am definitely not keeping the monitors on the desk. I made big soffits in my last studio but will use stands for this one. Thanks for that!

Hello Again Stuart,
Any advice on the last post in reference to building a "accordian design for the right wall when mixing etc?

Thanks,
Wes

swinging “baffles” "absorbers" that could be folded back against the wall while recording certain instruments and extended out for other applications...

Obvioulsy there is a big "mass" difference from left wall, but does this matter?

Yes!

The concept is quote simple: Your left ear has to hear exactly the same acoustic environment as your right ear. It's that simple. If not, then you will subconsciously "fix" the imbalance in the mix, and when played elsewhere, it will not sound good.

So, therefore, your left ear MUST be the same distance as your right ear from the SAME type of surface: If you have glass on the left, you need glass o the right. If you have 2 layers of 5/8" drywall on the left, then you need 2 layers of 5/8" drywall on the right. If you have an oak tree on the left, then you need an oak tree on the right. This is all about symmetry, and an absorber panel on hinges is vastly different, acoustically, from a wall. So you'd either have to build a wall on one side, or knock down the wall on the other side and replace it with hinged acoustic panels....

i am definitely not keeping the monitors on the desk.

Excellent! And also turn then the right way up! You show them laying down sideways in the photo: no good. Stand them up, the way they were designed to be used.


- Stuart -