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Double Sheetrock Wall STC Rating

Posted: Fri Aug 13, 2004 11:47 pm
by BradJacob
Using this wall method on ALL my walls:





Double 5/8 sheetrock, metal stud (with 3-4" mineral wool)
~~ 3" airspace ~~
Metal stud (with 3-4" mineral wool) 3" and Double 1/2 sheetrock


What will the STC Rating be? And will this be enough to keep out the noise from a band playing in the live room while I'm in the control room?


Thanks So Much,

- Brad

Posted: Sat Aug 14, 2004 12:37 am
by giles117
There is a chart flaoting around here that was recently REPOSTED for everyone.

i think the wall you described is somewhere along the order of 63 or 64 STC based on the info from that article.

Posted: Sat Aug 14, 2004 2:34 am
by AVare
Bryan is amazing!

In NRC'c IR-761 using double 1/2" gypsum on both sides and 1.5" mw is STC 63. With double 5/8" gypsum the STC is 65. So your construction with half and half thickness and 3-4" mw is about 65.

The constructions are on (Acrobat) pages 361 and 364. It is a huge document, but it details 350 wall designs. I strongly recommend d/ling it and studying the TL curves.

http://irc.nrc-cnrc.gc.ca/fulltext/ir761/

Enjoy!
Andre

Posted: Sat Aug 14, 2004 3:58 am
by Aaronw
Here's the chart...

Posted: Sat Aug 14, 2004 5:16 am
by z60611
BradJacob:

AVare's recommendation of IR761 is of course the best.
But here's the predictive software version:

Posted: Sat Aug 14, 2004 8:59 am
by giles117
Cool. Where can I get that predictive analysis program???

Posted: Sat Aug 14, 2004 9:15 am
by knightfly
Bob, have you discovered the panel size default in insul? It defaults to a panel size of 2.7 x 4.0 meters. Makes quite a difference changing that to actual normal panel sizes, especially for glass (that's a purty big window)

Brad, the TL on the low frequency end for your wall would likely allow a bit of bleed through for kick drum and bass - look at the mass-air-mass resonance in Z's post - for good isolation, you want this to be at least an octave or so below the lowest note you want to stop.

IF you go with a 9" air gap (meaning the total distance between your mass leaves, based on your comment about 3" studs and 3" space between) - your m-a-m resonance would be 41 hZ - adding a third layer to each side would only bring this down to around 33 hZ (low B on a 5 or 6 string bass is around 31 hZ) so more work would be needed to stop these frequencies better. Increasing the air gap to 12" total would lower your m-a-m- resonance with the two layer per leaf construction to around 35 hZ, and 29 hZ for three layers each side.

Keep in mind that this assumes a completely sealed construction and doesn't include openable doors, windows, etc - if you want a window between CR and live room, achieving this kind of isolation will get expensive. Thicker, laminated glass with panes of 1/2" and 5/8 with a 10" air gap could get you over 50 dB STC, with a m-a-m resonance of under 30 hZ and a TL of better than 42 dB clear down at 50 hZ - this assumes a panel size of 1 x 1.5 meters. Insul (the freebie) only does plate, not laminated, so these figures are for plate. Lami glass would help this by anywhere from 6 to 10 dB depending on frequency range, etc. - However, it's good to be pessimistic with the calculator; gets you closer to FSTC reality.

Aren't you glad this stuff is so easy and intuitive??!? :roll: Steve

Posted: Sat Aug 14, 2004 4:55 pm
by guitarguy
while we're on the subject, am I looking at the charts right to make this statement.

Wood studs have a higher STC rating for low frequency transmissions.

And if so wouldn't it make more sence to use wood studs in studio construction based on the fact that lower frequencies travel greater distances?

Or is there an acoustic value to steel studs over wood studs that I have overlooked? :?

Posted: Sat Aug 14, 2004 5:46 pm
by knightfly
Bryan -

http://www.insul.co.nz/download.html

The demo version is the freebie - the full version used to be available in two levels, a personal one for around $200 and a pro version for around $800 or so - Currently they only offer the full pro version, which is around $1000 if I remember correctly... Steve

Posted: Sat Aug 14, 2004 6:18 pm
by knightfly
"Wood studs have a higher STC rating for low frequency transmissions" - not exactly right - STC is a single number performance value centered around 500 hZ, with other values being required to be within a certain number of dB in order not to change the value of the STC rating - if you look at the charts in IRC 761, you'll see that most of the STC ratings of walls are also the TL value at 500 hZ - some are off by a dB or two.

However, LF isolation isn't tied to STC (other than by physics) because no values below 125 hZ are included in the STC computation algorithm. This is why for music isolation, STC doesn't mean all that much - it's much more pertinent to consider separate TL values, which are specified for each 1/3 octave frequency band - there are wall constructions, for example, two of which may have the exact same STC rating but one might have 10-20 dB better performance at 50 hZ, so if you were listening on the other side of these two walls to a drum kit there would be no doubt which was the better wall.

There was, for a while, a movement to re-define isolation values by a method called MTC, which stood for either Music Transmission Class or Machinery Transmission Class, take your pick - so far, it's not made much headway (probably at least in part because the people selling isolation materials don't want to look bad, and STC is almost always a more optimistic number (unless all your woofers are blown, and you found a sharp knife while drunk and wondered what was inside your kick drum :?

- anyway, MTC takes into accound frequencies down to around 50 hZ, don't remember exactly; so it would be a more realistic "single number rating" for walls used in studios, apartments, and industrial applications.

As to the reason for wood studs being better at low frequencies, I'm wondering if it's because of the added mass of the wood studs helping to damp the movement of the gypsum - even the few walls nearer the end of the doc that used heavier gauge studs showed a few dB worse at low frequencies than the wood stud counterparts. It would make sense to me that the extra mass of the framing would make some difference, although it's probably more complex than that (it usually is :cry: )

Bedtime, guess this will have to wait a bit... Steve

Posted: Sun Aug 15, 2004 10:57 am
by BradJacob
knightfly wrote:Bob, have you discovered the panel size default in insul? It defaults to a panel size of 2.7 x 4.0 meters. Makes quite a difference changing that to actual normal panel sizes, especially for glass (that's a purty big window)

Brad, the TL on the low frequency end for your wall would likely allow a bit of bleed through for kick drum and bass - look at the mass-air-mass resonance in Z's post - for good isolation, you want this to be at least an octave or so below the lowest note you want to stop.

IF you go with a 9" air gap (meaning the total distance between your mass leaves, based on your comment about 3" studs and 3" space between) - your m-a-m resonance would be 41 hZ - adding a third layer to each side would only bring this down to around 33 hZ (low B on a 5 or 6 string bass is around 31 hZ) so more work would be needed to stop these frequencies better. Increasing the air gap to 12" total would lower your m-a-m- resonance with the two layer per leaf construction to around 35 hZ, and 29 hZ for three layers each side.

Keep in mind that this assumes a completely sealed construction and doesn't include openable doors, windows, etc - if you want a window between CR and live room, achieving this kind of isolation will get expensive. Thicker, laminated glass with panes of 1/2" and 5/8 with a 10" air gap could get you over 50 dB STC, with a m-a-m resonance of under 30 hZ and a TL of better than 42 dB clear down at 50 hZ - this assumes a panel size of 1 x 1.5 meters. Insul (the freebie) only does plate, not laminated, so these figures are for plate. Lami glass would help this by anywhere from 6 to 10 dB depending on frequency range, etc. - However, it's good to be pessimistic with the calculator; gets you closer to FSTC reality.

Aren't you glad this stuff is so easy and intuitive??!? :roll: Steve

Steve,

Good-God!!! Here's my spec for my glass BEFORE I read your comments on glass:


First sheet: 6 foot X 2.5 feet 1/4" tempered glass.
Second sheet: 6 foot X 2.5 feet 3/8" tempered glass.


Again (as usual) here's my two(2) questions:

1. Do I need to go thicker than 1/4"?

2. Is insulated glass (the double paned stuff) better or do I use tempered, or do I use "laminated"

2 a. Is laminated the smae as the double-paned insulated glass?
2 b. Is there sucha thing as tempered-laminated glass?
2 c. Is a 1/2" laminated pane the distance including the TWO panes or is EACH pane 1/2" thick?

SO confused - but I'm learning alot from you guys (the masters!!!)


Many Thanks,

- Brad

Posted: Sun Aug 15, 2004 2:00 pm
by knightfly
Thicker is always better, kinda like milkshakes :lol:

Here's a brief rundown on glass -

Tempered is safer than plate (sometimes called float plate) but not much different in sound quality, other than possibly a slighly different resonance for the same size due to hardness change - tempered glass breaks into little "pebbles" rather than long, sharp "shards", so there's little danger of cuts that have been known to result in bleeding to death. You cannot cut tempered glass, it has to be ordered to exact size. Period.

Float plate is just plain glass - not allowed in commercial establishments in some areas, and never near doors where the door could swing into it.

Laminated is also referred to as Safety Glass - this used to be used in cars for glass, til they found they could temper glass cheaper than laminating it - not sure, but I wouldn't be surprised if the higher priced luxury cars STILL used laminated for its improved sound isolation.

Glass in general weighs roughly 3 times what gypsum wallboard (sheet rock) weighs, so the minimum thickness you want in a studio wall in order to not compromise the performance, would be at least 1/3 the total wallboard thickness, unbalanced slightly to either side the same as you would do with the wallboard for best TL.

For laminated glass, this 1/3 rule of thumb should be enough - for home studios, if budget is tight and you end up using float plate, I'd recommend more like 40% of total wallboard thickness.

Examples: if the wallboard on one side of a frame is two layers of 1/2", the glass in that side should be 3/8" minimum. If the wallboard on the OTHER side of the wall, on the other frame, is two layers of 5/8, then minimum glass should be 1/2".

As with opaque walls, all the other physics of good isolation still apply - more mass, unbalanced slightly, wider gap between, only two panes, well sealed, all still apply.

Insulated glass can be either two separate panes separated by air and well sealed at the perimiter, or a single hollow glass "block", with the air space sealed by the fact that the window was "blown" at the factory as sort of a "flattened glass ball" - in either case, this constitutes two leaves from an acoustic standpoint, so should be avoided in almost all cases of serious isolation. Insulated glass is NOT the same as laminated, although it's possible (don't know) that some insulated glass IS laminated - if so, then each side of the air gap would have at least two separate panes glued together with some type of elastomeric sheet between them.

Laminated glass is sold as the finished thickness - two panes of 1/4" glass with a thin membrane of elastomeric material in between would be considered 1/2" laminated glass.

Finally - Laminated is the best (and most expensive) for sound control, giving anywhere from 6 to maybe 10 dB better performance than the others depending on frequency.

There's no point to using tempered laminated glass that I'm aware of, although it's possible. It would be even more expensive than laminated.

Thicker is almost always better, but see my 1/3 ratio comments above.

Wider air gap between panes is always better, especially at lower frequencies.

Splaying glass has more value for fighting glare in lighting than it does for acoustics, although if you have plenty of space between window panes it can minimise flutter echoes between them.

I think we just ran out of what little I know (or at least remember) about glass... Steve