John Sayers' Recording Studio Design Forum Archive

Hey Everyone! Thank you so much for having me in this forum community : D Tons of great knowledge on here.

Me and my wife just bought our 1st house and I have 1 room that will be dedicated to be my studio. I need some advice on making the most of what I've got. It might not be ideal, but this is what I have to work with. I create Bass Music so the room will be for producing and mixing. I would also like to use this room for recording vocals only if you would recommend this room to do so. I'm not sure if I'll be able to get great sounding vocals in this room, but hopefully the experts will be able to tell me if it's possible.

I am familiar more or less on optimal placement of studio monitors (equilateral triangle technique) and optimal listening position (38% rule).

Making noise isn't really an issue. We do live on a semi-busy street in a small city. There is carpet on the floor, sheetrock walls. 1 closet in the room. The door is pretty cheap and hollow. The house was build in 1985.

Room Dimensions
L: 10' 11"
W: 10' 2"
H: 8'

Closet Dimensions
L: 4'
W: 3' 5"
H: 6' 11"

Room Pics: My Question is this: Is it possible to make a room with these dimensions sound good for mixing/recording vocals? If so, what do I need to do in order to optimize this room? My Budget is $500

Hi there "junqueira", and Welcome!

I need some advice on making the most of what I've got. It might not be ideal, but this is what I have to work with.

As you said: It's not optimal, but it is workable. It's small, close to square, but usable. It will need a stack of treatment, though...

I am familiar more or less on optimal placement of studio monitors (equilateral triangle technique) and optimal listening position (38% rule).

Ooops!!! Two strikes....

OK, both of those are just basic starting points, not written on stone. The 38% "rule" is not really a rule at all: just a guideline. It's the theoretical location of the smoothest modal response for an untreated rectangular room, but not necessarily the best location. And the famous equilateral triangle diagram is fantastic... if you happen to have ears in your eyeballs! Take a look at one of those diagrams, and see where the axis from each speaker is aimed... smack bang through the middle of your eyes! But if you are a typical normal human, your ears are actually a few inches off to the side, away from your eyes, and a few inches further back.... In other words, if you set up your speakers like that, your ears are not on-axis! In reality, it turns out that it's better to have the axes just grazing past the edge of your ears tips, or even a bit further out.

Assuming that you will not be building any isolation system in that room, here's how I would set up your speaker geometry:
That's the theoretical optimal layout, adjusted a bit from experience. It is probably possible to improve on that by careful adjustment in small steps, using REW, but the best spot won't be far from there.

Speakers go on massively heavy stands, of course. Never on the desk. All of the dimensions above refer to the acoustic axis of the speaker, not the top, bottom or center of the cabinet.

That layout also assumes that you have the usual basic room "standard" treatment in place. You'll need more than normal in your room, since it is so small, but it should be possible to get it reasonably decent.

There is carpet on the floor,

Take it out. It has to go. Carpet trashes your room acoustics. It does the exact opposite of what you need. Get it out, and if the underlying surface is no use as a floor, then lay laminate flooring (on suitable underlay, of course).

1 closet in the room.

Location in the room? Which wall? Where on the wall?

The door is pretty cheap and hollow.

Replace it with a solid.core door, and put good seals around the entire perimeter. YOur wife will thank you later!

Is it possible to make a room with these dimensions sound good for mixing/recording vocals?

Yes. Not world-class, of course, but usable.

If so, what do I need to do in order to optimize this room? My Budget is $500

First get your geometry correct. See above diagrams. Then set up your signal chain for unit gain everywhere with dead flat response (including on the speakers themselves), load up REW, calibrate it for 80 dBC level on each individual speaker just by itself (implying that you will automatically get 86 dBC with both speakers running), and run three tests in the empty room: L only, R only, and LR. Post the MDAT file some place on a file-sharing service (eg, DropBox), then post the link here.

Then install the usual basic treatment, but overblown a bit due to the small size of your room. Not sure it you'll be able to get there on US$ 500. Probably a bit more.


- Stuart -

Stuart! Thank you so much for response : D It's going to take me a while to read through and consider what you've typed. I will reply soon, thanks again!

Once again, thank you so much for your help. I finally had some time to chew on the info you gave me.

That's the theoretical optimal layout, adjusted a bit from experience. It is probably possible to improve on that by careful adjustment in small steps, using REW, but the best spot won't be far from there.

Speakers go on massively heavy stands, of course. Never on the desk. All of the dimensions above refer to the acoustic axis of the speaker, not the top, bottom or center of the cabinet.

That layout also assumes that you have the usual basic room "standard" treatment in place. You'll need more than normal in your room, since it is so small, but it should be possible to get it reasonably decent.

After using your measurements, I actually wasn't tooo far off. So any stand in particular that you recommend. Can they be DIY? Or do you advise buying professional speaker stands? As long as the stands are heavy, can they go on top of the desk? Or do they have to be on the ground?

There is carpet on the floor,

Take it out. It has to go. Carpet trashes your room acoustics. It does the exact opposite of what you need. Get it out, and if the underlying surface is no use as a floor, then lay laminate flooring (on suitable underlay, of course).

I don't think I'll be able to take the carpet out of the room It's brand new carpet. Is there something that I can place on top of the carpet so that the acoustics won't be so bad? I'm not as concerned about it in the mixing room as I am in the studio booth. I definitely don't want the recordings to be trashed. I might be way off on this, but I was at walmart and saw this. Would something like this (picture below) be ok to lay on top of the carpet in the studio booth so that the carpet doesn't soak up important frequencies?

1 closet in the room.

Location in the room? Which wall? Where on the wall?

The closet is located on the right side of the room

The door is pretty cheap and hollow.

Replace it with a solid.core door, and put good seals around the entire perimeter. YOur wife will thank you later!

Got it!

If so, what do I need to do in order to optimize this room? My Budget is $500

First get your geometry correct. See above diagrams. Then set up your signal chain for unit gain everywhere with dead flat response (including on the speakers themselves), load up REW, calibrate it for 80 dBC level on each individual speaker just by itself (implying that you will automatically get 86 dBC with both speakers running), and run three tests in the empty room: L only, R only, and LR. Post the MDAT file some place on a file-sharing service (eg, DropBox), then post the link here.

What do you mean by "set up your signal chain for unit gain everywhere with dead flat response"?

I did calibrate my room to 80db. I felt like 86db was a little loud for this size. Would you still recommend 86db for this size? I've seen different ppl say that if 85db is too loud, you can drop it down a bit so it doesn't blow your ears off

Then install the usual basic treatment, but overblown a bit due to the small size of your room. Not sure it you'll be able to get there on US$ 500. Probably a bit more.

Is there a specific location that you would recommend to place the treatment?

So any stand in particular that you recommend. Can they be DIY? Or do you advise buying professional speaker stands?

DIY is fine. Better, actually! Some people simply stack up bricks or concrete block, then cover it with carpet of fabric to make it look nice. Others buy large-diameter hollow steel pipe, or square section steel, weld it to a solid base, then fill it with sand for extra mass. The idea is that it is HEAVY! As in REALLY heavy. Far heavier than the commercially available stands. And cheaper, probably. Those commercial stands cost a fortune, and bricks are cheap...

As long as the stands are heavy, can they go on top of the desk? Or do they have to be on the ground?

Never on the table. Never never never. Speakers should never be on the desk, or on the meter bridge of a console, as that creates massive artifacts at the listening position. But that doesn't stop ignorant people from doing it! You see it all the time, even in magazine articles about supposedly "top" studios... yet there the are... speakers laying on their sides ( ), spread wide apart at high angles ( ), right on the front edge of the meter bridge ( )... that's about the worst possible place and orientation you can put a speaker. The only time that it makes sense is if you are attempting to simulate the lousy sound of cheap home stereo speakers badly placed on bookshelves in a typical living room... But no use at all for serious critical listening.

Speakers go on stands, on the floor, behind the desk. Or better still, flush-mounted in soffits.

Is there something that I can place on top of the carpet so that the acoustics won't be so bad?

A layer of thick plywood, with laminate flooring on top would work (with suitable underlay), as long as the door does not open into the room...

Would something like this (picture below) be ok to lay on top of the carpet in the studio

It might work... is it solid, rigid, and fairly heavy? Ask the manufacturer if it can be used over carpet. Important! You must use something that can be used on carpet. Laminate flooring cannot: it needs solid support under it, and would crack from the flexibility of the carpet.

What do you mean by "set up your signal chain for unit gain everywhere with dead flat response"?

Basic gain structure: Set up every gain/trim/pad setting everywhere, such that all signals come into each "box" at 0 dB VU or -20 dB FS, as applicable, and also leave the box at 0 dB VU or -20 dB FS. So if you use a mic pre-amp, when your speakers are playing pink noise at 86 dBC, the signal out of the mic preo must leave at 0 dB VU, and as soon as it enters the console you adjust the gain so it is entering the channel strip at 0 dB VU, then with the faders all set at unity on the console, the same signal should exit the console at 0 dB VU where it goes to your DAW interface (Aux send? subgroup bus?). At the point where it enters the interface, set your DAW input gain so the signal is at -20 dB FS, and you should see it coming into REW also at -20 dBFS. And to complete the circle, the output of REW should be set to send out pink noise at - 20 dBFS, which must arrive at your console channel strip at 0 dB VU (after you adjust the gain), and go through that channel strip with the faders set at unity, then out the master channel showing 0 dB VU at the point it exists your console to go to the speakers. Finally, you adjust the speaker volume controls such that the 0 dB VU signal they are receiving produces that coveted 86 dBC sound level in the room, as measured with a good hand-held sound level meter at the mix position. As you do all that, also make sure that all your EQ is set flat: no boost or gain anywhere, and that you have no dynamics in the chain (no compressors, expanders, gates, limiters, etc.).

This is know as "setting your gain structure to unity". In other words, you make sure that a 0 dB signal at any point in the chain will also be 0 dB at every point, with all the faders set to unity. (0 dB VU in the analog world, and -20B FS in the digital world). If you have that correct, then you have plenty of dynamic range, plenty of signal-to-noise ratio, plenty of headroom, and the cleanest possible path.

I did calibrate my room to 80db. I felt like 86db was a little loud for this size. Would you still recommend 86db for this size? I've seen different ppl say that if 85db is too loud, you can drop it down a bit so it doesn't blow your ears off

You seem to be missing the point! Calibration has nothing at all to do with the level you listen at: it has everything to do with the CALIBRATING your system, and your room, so it will perform as close as possible to all other rooms that are also calibrated correctly. You might decide to listen at 70 dBC or 110 dBC, or 60, or 90, or whatever level takes your fancy, but the calibration done at 86 dB assures you that your room and system will perform just like any other room at that level. So if you normally listen at 75 dB in your correctly calibrated room, and you go to another room that is correctly calibrated where you listen at 75 dBC, then the level will sound the same as in your room. Any other room on the planet that is calibrated properly will sound the same level when you listen at 75 dBC. But if you calibrated your room at 80 dBC, instead of 86, then your room will sound different from all other rooms. When you go to another room and try to listen at 75, it won't sound the way you expect it to.

So you can LISTEN at whatever level you want, but the CALIBRATION must be done at 86 dBC, if you want it to sound the same as other studios.

Of course, that's the theory: in practice, not all rooms sound the same, due to various other factors, but at least the level is the same for any room that is correctly calibrated.

Is there a specific location that you would recommend to place the treatment?

Yep! Absolutely! Very much so!

But first let's see your REW test results...


- Stuart -

So any stand in particular that you recommend. Can they be DIY? Or do you advise buying professional speaker stands?

DIY is fine. Better, actually! Some people simply stack up bricks or concrete block, then cover it with carpet of fabric to make it look nice. Others buy large-diameter hollow steel pipe, or square section steel, weld it to a solid base, then fill it with sand for extra mass. The idea is that it is HEAVY! As in REALLY heavy. Far heavier than the commercially available stands. And cheaper, probably. Those commercial stands cost a fortune, and bricks are cheap...

Speakers go on stands, on the floor, behind the desk. Or better still, flush-mounted in soffits.

Exactly how heavy do the stands need to be? My speakers aren't very big (5" Mackie MR5). So if I make very heavy stands, can they then be placed on the desk? Or would you still recommend that they go on the floor? The dilemma is that if I put the speakers outside of the desk, they are spaced too wide. If I place the speakers behind the desk, the speakers might be too close to the wall.

Is there something that I can place on top of the carpet so that the acoustics won't be so bad?

A layer of thick plywood, with laminate flooring on top would work (with suitable underlay), as long as the door does not open into the room...

Would something like this (picture below) be ok to lay on top of the carpet in the studio

It might work... is it solid, rigid, and fairly heavy? Ask the manufacturer if it can be used over carpet. Important! You must use something that can be used on carpet. Laminate flooring cannot: it needs solid support under it, and would crack from the flexibility of the carpet.

awesome, I will put some plywood down with laminate glued on top of the plywood. How thick? 3/4" plywood?

You seem to be missing the point! Calibration has nothing at all to do with the level you listen at: it has everything to do with the CALIBRATING your system, and your room, so it will perform as close as possible to all other rooms that are also calibrated correctly. You might decide to listen at 70 dBC or 110 dBC, or 60, or 90, or whatever level takes your fancy, but the calibration done at 86 dB assures you that your room and system will perform just like any other room at that level. So if you normally listen at 75 dB in your correctly calibrated room, and you go to another room that is correctly calibrated where you listen at 75 dBC, then the level will sound the same as in your room. Any other room on the planet that is calibrated properly will sound the same level when you listen at 75 dBC. But if you calibrated your room at 80 dBC, instead of 86, then your room will sound different from all other rooms. When you go to another room and try to listen at 75, it won't sound the way you expect it to.

So you can LISTEN at whatever level you want, but the CALIBRATION must be done at 86 dBC, if you want it to sound the same as other studios.

Of course, that's the theory: in practice, not all rooms sound the same, due to various other factors, but at least the level is the same for any room that is correctly calibrated.

sounds good

So if I make very heavy stands, can they then be placed on the desk? Or would you still recommend that they go on the floor?

Maybe you didn't notice where I wrote this, in my last post? "Never never never. Speakers should never be on the desk, or on the meter bridge of a console, as that creates massive artifacts at the listening position.". It does not matter how heavy the stands are: speakers should NEVER go on the desk, or the console bridge. The point is no how heavy the stands are: the point is how the sound field from the speaker interacts with the surface of the desk/console to produce those comb-filtering artifacts, the early reflections, the phase shifts, the scattering, etc.... Speakers have no place on desks or consoles, unless the purpose is to deliberately create poor acoustics.

The dilemma is that if I put the speakers outside of the desk, they are spaced too wide. If I place the speakers behind the desk, the speakers might be too close to the wall.

Did you not see the detailed diagram I prepared for you, two posts back? I gave you the exact locations for your speakers and your mix position, in your room, in a very complete set of 3D diagrams, tailored for the optimum acoustics in your room, with full dimensions... Did you not see that?

You WANT the speakers tight up against the front wall. You have no other options in a room that small. It's the only way to deal with the SBIR issue, phase cancellation, and the edge diffraction artifacts, as well as other issues. Your room is not large enough to be able to get the speakers away from the wall.

It is impossible to have your speakers "too close to the front wall" in a small room. Leave only enough gap to fit a 4" thick panel of OC-703 between the rear corner of the speaker and the wall.

I will put some plywood down with laminate glued on top of the plywood.

No! Laminate floor is NEVER glued to the sub-floor! Like I said before: " lay laminate flooring (on suitable underlay, of course)". Follow the manufacturer's instructions for correctly installing the laminate flooring.

How thick? 3/4" plywood?

That's fine, yes.


- Stuart -

Maybe you didn't notice where I wrote this, in my last post? "Never never never. Speakers should never be on the desk, or on the meter bridge of a console, as that creates massive artifacts at the listening position.". It does not matter how heavy the stands are: speakers should NEVER go on the desk, or the console bridge. The point is no how heavy the stands are: the point is how the sound field from the speaker interacts with the surface of the desk/console to produce those comb-filtering artifacts, the early reflections, the phase shifts, the scattering, etc.... Speakers have no place on desks or consoles, unless the purpose is to deliberately create poor acoustics.

got it

Did you not see the detailed diagram I prepared for you, two posts back? I gave you the exact locations for your speakers and your mix position, in your room, in a very complete set of 3D diagrams, tailored for the optimum acoustics in your room, with full dimensions... Did you not see that?

You WANT the speakers tight up against the front wall. You have no other options in a room that small. It's the only way to deal with the SBIR issue, phase cancellation, and the edge diffraction artifacts, as well as other issues. Your room is not large enough to be able to get the speakers away from the wall.

It is impossible to have your speakers "too close to the front wall" in a small room. Leave only enough gap to fit a 4" thick panel of OC-703 between the rear corner of the speaker and the wall.

I understand now, thanks for that!

I will put some plywood down with laminate glued on top of the plywood.

No! Laminate floor is NEVER glued to the sub-floor! Like I said before: " lay laminate flooring (on suitable underlay, of course)". Follow the manufacturer's instructions for correctly installing the laminate flooring. [/quote]

Gotcha, I guess I don't know enough about installing wood flooring, but I will definitely be learning soon

I will soon have the desk I'm going to use in the studio. After I put the desk in the room, I'll update here. Stuart, thank you so much for your help so far! I've also updated the original post to include the dimensions of the closet (vocal booth).