John Sayers' Recording Studio Design Forum Archive

Hey there,

This might be a shot in the dark, but I've been searching for someone with studio building experience in my local area, and haven't found anyone.

I need help building out a live room for a residential home. Either a freestanding studio in my backyard, or convert my existing 2 car garage. The plan is for it to accommodate a loud rock band, without disturbing suburban neighbors.

Please PM me if you know anyone. Thanks

Hi "flayerhater" Please read the forum rules for posting (click here). You seem to be missing a couple of things!

I need help building out a live room for a residential home. Either a freestanding studio in my backyard, or convert my existing 2 car garage. The plan is for it to accommodate a loud rock band, without disturbing suburban neighbors.

I'm not to sure if you are looking for a studio design, or a building contractor?

Any good building contractor can build a studio, as long as he can follow plans and listen to instructions on some difference between normal house construction and studio construction, and I'm sure there's no shortage of building contractors in Las Vegas!

But not anyone can design a studio: That's a very, very different thing. Studio design is highly specialized. A typical architect who can churn out house plans or office plans or shopping center plans all day, would not be able to design a studio. For that' you absolutely do need someone who specializes in studio design, and has a track record to prove it.

If this is the case, and you are looking for a studio designer (not a contractor), then you do not need someone local to do that. You could hire a studio designer anywhere on the planet to do that. With the internet and modern technology, it is entirely feasible that a studio designer can design your place, even if he lives elsewhere. Almost all of the studios I have designed were done like that, by "remote control", with no problems. It is even possible to tune the room acoustically remotely. Here's a case where I did exactly that: http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewt ... =2&t=20471 I did the initial design for the studio, then after it was built the customer hired me again to do the final tweaking and tuning, with the results you see on that thread. I have never met him, and we have never even spoken on the phone or Skype. I have never been to that location, nor within a couple of hundred miles. Yet I was able to design it, he was able to build it from the design, and we were able to tune it to perfection, all by e-mail.

So if it's a designer you need, then you don't need to restrict your search to only designers in Las Vegas: you can look anywhere on Earth for a designer to do the job. In fact, I doubt that there are many experienced studio designers with a proven track record in the entire state of Nevada! There aren't many of us in the world, to be honest: maybe a few dozen, that I'm aware of. So in all likelihood, you probably won't find one locally. You could hire somebody distant and pay for their airfare and accommodation to fly in to McCarran and look at your place, but in reality that's an expense that you do not need. Modern communication is way good enough to do everything electronically.

- Stuart -

Hi, my apologies for not following the forum rules. I read them but not seeing what I missed. I'm happy to make corrections if you tell me what needs doing.

Thank you for the design offer Stuart. But I don't feel confident I could simply give a general contractor some design documents, and have such a project executed correctly.

To your point about only a dozen designers in the world, I'm reading hundreds of guys designing, and drawing up studios on this forum, Gearslutz, and the internet audio world. I'm searching for just 1 person, with studio construction experience, in my area. Someone who can get their hands dirty, and can anticipate problems I wouldn't be able to see.

Hi, my apologies for not following the forum rules. I read them but not seeing what I missed. I'm happy to make corrections if you tell me what needs doing.

Big blue letters, part way down the page...

Thank you for the design offer Stuart.

Ooops! It looks like I gave the wrong impression. I was not offering my design services! I'm not trying to drum up business. In fact, I could not take your project on right now in any case, as I'm fully booked for the next couple of months as it is, with some prospects even beyond that.

What I was actually trying to do is to point out that a good designer is far more important than a contractor, and that you don't need a local designer. Sorry if I mislead you. That was my point. Design is 9/10ths of studio construction. The actual building of it is only 1/10th. Not even the best contractor on the planet can build a good studio if the design is faulty or poorly done, but even a mediocre contractor can do it if the design is excellent and the supervision good. That's what I was trying to say. The contractor should not be your priority: the designer should.

To your point about only a dozen designers in the world, I'm reading hundreds of guys designing, and drawing up studios on this forum, Gearslutz, and the internet audio world.

It looks like you misunderstood what I was saying there too! I was NOT saying that there are only a few dozen (not "a dozen", but "a few dozen") people who are capable of designing a studio! Not at all: After all, this forum is bigger than almost all of the others: we have well over 20,000 members, and many, many of those have designed and built their own places. I'm not talking about them: I'm talking about professional studio designers, who design studios for a living. Not the typical home studio owner who designs his place for himself (with substantial help from the pros on the forums!), builds it, but then never does it again. I'm talking about the folks who are designing studios all the time, for others, doing a good job of it, with a good track record, and making a living out of it. You won't find more than a few dozen of those. Many try, but not too many stay in the field for long.... lots fall by the wayside, never to be heard of again...

I'm searching for just 1 person, with studio construction experience, in my area.

I'm curious: Why do you think that construction is more important than design? Why do you want an experienced studio builder, but not an experienced studio designer? A contractor will not be able to design your place for you... That's not his job.

Someone who can get their hands dirty, and can anticipate problems I wouldn't be able to see.

That's actually what the designer should be doing, not the guy building it! If the builder runs into a problem, he contacts the designer to find out how to deal with it. He should not try to deal with it himself...

A good designer spends a lot of time thinking through the issues, planning for them in advance, dealing with them in the design stage so that they are NOT issues for the guy with the hammer and the caulking gun... Most good studio designers that I know also offer consulting services for supervising the build remotely, in addition to the design service itself. I've done that myself on many studio builds, most of them being done by inexperienced builders ("inexperienced" in the sense of not having built a studio before, but experienced in building in general). In some cases, the owner decides to be his own GC (General Contractor), and not hire any contractor to do it. He just hires the tradesmen to do each part of the build, and gets my supervision remotely, via photos, videos, telephone, written explanations, diagrams, etc. Maybe that's the service you should be looking for?

To be honest, I don't recall ever having worked with a contractor who already had a lot of experience in studio building: there aren't many of those around, it seems. Most home studio owners use ordinary contractors and close supervision, or just build it themselves.

Where are you in the process right now? Do you already have a detailed design in place, covering every aspect? Or are you just starting out, with only a rough idea? Also, what type of build is this? Is it "ground up", or will you be modifying an existing building? Or maybe building something in your garage? Is this a big commercial facility that you need to build, or is it more of a hobby place just for you?

Lots of different scenarios there...

If you do need a designer, then contact John Sayers first of all. There's none better... If he can't help you (he's often very busy) then PM me, and I'll be happy to put you in touch with other designers that I would recommend.

One word of warning: be careful of unsolicited offers you might get for studio design services, coming from supposed forum members: lately I've seen some evidence of other studio "designers" using the forum as a lead generator: they hang around, looking for unsuspecting forum members like yourself who might need help, then offer all kinds of wonderful solutions, at "cheap" prices. Watch out for those guys! I'd be happy to put you in touch with other studio designers, but you'll make the first contact, not them! I only recommend people I trust, and they won't contact you first (unless I let you know in advance that they will).


- Stuart -

Hey, thanks for the suggestions.

Bricking up the bay entry is definitely not an option.

I'm still trying to wrap my head around how a double leaf wall goes in front of the metal bay door. I understand building the frame part. But I can't visualize how a flat frame can be made airtight to the bay door opening. Also not clear on how the exterior wall of this new frame is attached, when the metal bay door is all locked down outside.

Last, it seems by the time you've built a double wall, complete with studs to the concrete floor, to tear it all down in the event of moving, and patching it up to look presentable again would be another major construction job.

I guess I'm praying for some type of component, non-permanent solution. I'm imagining stackable, lightweight panels, with 6" fiberglass insulation on one or both sides. Something that can be removed later without too much fuss.

I guess I'm praying for some type of component, non-permanent solution. I'm imagining stackable, lightweight panels, with 6" fiberglass insulation on one or both sides.

It would be wonderful if such a material existed, but unfortunately there is no such thing. The laws of physics prevent it.

There are only four ways of stopping sound:
1) Build a barrier that is so incredibly massive (extremely heavy) that sound waves are incapable of moving it or making it vibrate.
2) Build a barrier that is so incredibly rigid (extremely stiff) that sound waves are incapable of moving it or making it vibrate.
3) Build a barrier that is so incredibly absorptive (extreme damping) that sound waves are incapable of getting through it.
4) Remove all possible paths that sound could take to get from the source to the receiver (extreme decoupling), including air ("In space, nobody can hear you scream").

Well,#4 is out, because you can't create a perfect vacuum: astronomers have discovered evidence of "sound" waves moving through the empty nothingness of interstellar space. Even if this could work, it would be an interesting problem in engineering to create walls with a perfect vacuum inside that did not collapse in on themselves....

#3 is out, because it is impossible to absorb sound energy completely in a reasonable distance and with reasonable materials. Even 6 feet of perfect sound insulation that has a coefficient of absorption of 1 for all frequencies would still not do it. If you don't believe me, put a thick pillow across the front face of your speaker, and turn it up... Can you still hear the music? You bet you can...

#2 is out, because there is no such material, nor could there be. Perfect rigidity is an interesting abstract idea, but impossible with real-world materials. All materials have some degree of flexibility, even six feet of solid concrete.

And #1 is out, because no such material exists, nor could it.

So basically, it is impossible to stop sound with any of these methods: Any sufficiently loud sound will penetrate any conceivable barrier. That's why acousticians don't use the term "soundproof" much, because there is no such thing.

So what can you do then?

Well, it turns out that it is possible to combine certain materials in certain ways to create a barrier that will do a reasonable job of reducing the intensity of sound enough that it is inaudible to most people. The key is to combine all 4 of the above: Sufficient imperfect mass, sufficient imperfect rigidity, sufficient damping, and sufficient decoupling. There are no magic materials, nor magical combinations of materials, but there are certain ways that they can be set up to provide reasonable "transmission loss" (isolation).

The key is mass: you need lots of it, so there is no such thing as a light-weight sound barrier. That's like asking for dry water, or dark sunlight, or truthful politician. Those are just plain contradictions in terms. There is no way to make a sound barrier that is light weight. It HAS to be heavy, because the equations of physics that describe how sound works and how it can be attenuated, all involve mass.

The second key is decoupling: You need to create a break in the paths that sound could take in or out of your room. Vacuums are out of the question, of course, but resilient materials (springy, elastic things) do have some interesting and useful properties. AIr is a good resilient material, so it is possible to use air to create resilience. In fact, it is easy to trap air between two massive surfaces, such as two sheets of drywall or plywood with a gap between them, for example... We refer to those "sheets of drywall or plywood" as "leaves". And since these materials are also somewhat rigid, they take care of #2 on the list as well.

The third key is damping: you need some material that will "put a damper" on the sound waves as they travel through the springy thing, to stop the spring thing from being too springy! Just like the shock absorber in your car suspension stops the "shock waves" of a bumpy round from getting through, so too does acoustic "damping" inside the wall stop the path of some types of sound waves.

Since you can't have connections between the two sides of your barrier, you can't make it up from stackable modules. Since you need a lot of mass, you can't have a light-weight barrier. And if you put the insulation in the outside of your panels, it won't do anything, because the damping needs to take place inside, on the "springy" part of the barrier, where all the action is. It's not use sending your goal keeper to the center of the field, and hoping he will stop goals there, because that's not where the goal action is!

That sort of precludes: "stackable, lightweight panels, with 6" fiberglass insulation on one or both sides." And since what you need to do is heavy, thick, made up of several specific layers of specific materials in specific orders and with specific dimensions, that also sort of precludes "Something that can be removed later without too much fuss".

So those are your options: Use magical incantations or deep prayer, in the hope that the laws of physics will be suspended for your studio, or face reality and just build a good sound attenuation system, like all other studios!

So sad to say, your dream of a simple solution, is just that: a dream.

I'm still trying to wrap my head around how a double leaf wall goes in front of the metal bay door.

Like this:


That's the sequence! Of course, before you can remove the mechanism, you need to fix the door in place securely so that it wont fall out when you remove everything else that is holding it in place! One way of doing that is with a series of steel plates that are bolted/screwed/nailed to both the door and the wall, like this:

That entire frame is carefully sealed to the wall, of course, with abundant caulk: air-tight seals is critically important to isolation.

Also not clear on how the exterior wall of this new frame is attached,

There is no exterior frame: Only the interior frame, as show above.

when the metal bay door is all locked down outside.

THe door is not locked down from the outside: that would look ugly! It is locked down from the inside. As shown above.

Last, it seems by the time you've built a double wall, complete with studs to the concrete floor, to tear it all down in the event of moving, and patching it up to look presentable again would be another major construction job.

Yup. Welcome to the world of studio construction! Nothing is simple, nor cheap, nor light-weight. You cannot eat your cake and have it too!


- Stuart -