John Sayers' Recording Studio Design Forum Archive

Dont get to post on here often but i'm getting ready to move my control room into a new space. I only have 2 real questions.

Right now my control room is in a bedroom in a house right next door to where i live. I own the house but have finally gotten my nephew to move out and am going to move the control room into this space which was the living room and dining room. This house is made out of concrete blocks inside and outside walls on a concrete slab. it has fearing strips on the inside with drywall attached to the fearing strips.

I am my only neighbor so disturbing people is not a problem, and i suppose because of the concrete block outside noise coming in is not a problem. I run this studio as part of my living and have been for about 10 years. I record drums in a separate shed, and about all i do in the control room is some vocals every once in a while and MIX. All guitar amps are in another room. I have been sending some of my mixes when the clients can afford it to a real mastering engineer. He says I have great mixes coming out of my bedroom but of course some problems with the low end. So my main concern is where to put my desk and can i treat this room so I can have more transparent mixes. I have no problem spending a few thousand dollars on some bass traps or make them myself If I have to. I already have some diff-users and acoustical foam in the bedroom that I will be moving to the new space.

I have attached a sketch up file and I am NOT a sketch up expert. I put a square where i thought the desk could possibly go? There is a line across the top of a little room that i could make that part of the house bigger. I'm not for sure that would help so I could put the mixing desk in that area, probably not.

1 - where would you put the control desk?
2 - is it viable to be able with proper acoustical treatment get this room to sound flat like a real control room should be?

This forum is amazing and I appreciate any help.
Thank You

I put a square where i thought the desk could possibly go?

I'm not seeing your square. Here's what I see in your model:
With a room that has such an irregular shape, there's no obvious place where you could set up a control room. You will probably need to build at least one wall to partition off that space into something symmetrical and usable as a control room.

- Stuart -

This is the image I'm seeing. Where the rectangle is, is where I was thinking of putting the control desk. The line across that one room I could remove that to make that room more of a rectangle. If I put it where my drawing shows the rectangle can I get this room to be flat for mixing?

This is the image I'm seeing. Where the rectangle is,

That rectangle and the line are not in the file you posted yesterday. Perhaps you sent the wrong version? I downloaded again and double checked: there's no hidden geometry, no hidden layers, ... it's just not there.

Anyway...

If I put it where my drawing shows the rectangle can I get this room to be flat for mixing?

As long as you don't need access to that room up in the top left. You'll need to close off this doorway permanently, as that will be blocked by your speakers and by the front bass traps (or soffits, if you choose to go that route):
I would also recommend that you add the walls shown in purple in the diagram below, in order to make the room properly rectangular:
However, do check that the resulting dimensions make for a good room ratio. I have a suspicion that it might be rather close to square. Use a room mode calculator to check that.

If you build that wall and block off that door, then the chances are good that you can create a very decent control room in there, with suitable treatment.

- Stuart -

Would I be better off keeping it in the bedroom its in now? the problem is my desk is right up against the wall. Again my only question would be how to make the room acoustically flat? I do have a bunch of acoustical treatment in there from Auralex with foam triangle bass traps, but the low end is not good. Is there a forum post on instructions on how to use room eq wizard? I have no clue how to use sketch up so sorry for that. The only thing I could do in the other room that you said to make more rectangle is a di-agnle curtain that could go across the 1 point? But the room would not be rectangle then.
Thanks again

The other problem is I have the desk right now in this bedroom right up against the wall. I know this is in correct and am willing to move it. If I can determine that this will be a decent space to work in.

This is my first try with Room EQ wizard and I've attached a room eq wizard file. This is the bedroom in the house where the studio is as of right now. I've been asking about moving it out into the living room but I may be better off to just leave it in the bedroom where it is. I've also attached a video of the room so you get an idea of what were dealing with. Again only real question is can I make this room acousticaly flat as possible?

Both Files are in this folder

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/r4bcr9xnsejb ... YQv9a?dl=0

Thanks Again for all the help.

This is my first try with Room EQ wizard and I've attached a room eq wizard file

There's something rather wrong there! It looks like you did not follow the calibration instructions correctly, since I very much doubt that your sound card is so terribly bad that it's frequency response looks like this:
With swings of +/- 20 dB, that has to be the worst soundcard ever built! Either that, or you didn't follow the instructions, and that's actually a room response graph...

Either way, applying that to your measurements is producing some pretty weird outcomes!

Also, it appears that you ran your measurements at a level that is over one hundred times too quiet. Your levels are around 60 dB, but the "standard" level for studio and cine calibration, is 86 dB. So using your hand-held sound level meter, make sure that each speaker on its own (other speaker turned off) is producing 80 dBC when you play REW's full-range pink-noise test signal, thus ensuring that when both speakers are playing it together, then level will automatically be 86 dB. That's the level you should be using for all your tests.

Also, set REW to run the sweep from 17 Hz to 22 kHz. Right now, you are starting the sweep way too high to be useful.

The other problem is I have the desk right now in this bedroom right up against the wall. I know this is in correct and am willing to move it. If I can determine that this will be a decent space to work in.

IT can be, and here is your correct setup for that room:

Explanation: Speakers on HEAVY stands, 31" from the side walls (meaning they will be 52" apart), and 4" from the front wall (rear corner of speaker). That's just enough for you to put a panel of 4" OC-703 in between each speaker and the wall.

The height of the speakers is 48" above the floor, which is the same height as your ears when seated.

Set up your chair such that your ears are 69.5" from the front wall, and toe-in the speakers such that they are aimed at a point 13" behind your head (83.2" from the front wall).

That's the theoretical optimum layout. But for that to work, you'll have to clean out the room completely, and leave ONLY the speakers on their stands, your chair, and a small, small, small desk in front of you. Just big enough to get your console on.

I've also attached a video of the room so you get an idea of what were dealing with

The treatment you have in there is insufficient, and some of it is pointless and/or useless. It's a small room, so it will need major treatment.

Again only real question is can I make this room acousticaly flat as possible?

It is feasible, yes. The dimensions are not ideal (close to square, and too long for the width and height), but there are things that can be done...

The single best thing you could do in there to get excellent acoustics, is to flush-mount your speakers ("soffit-mount"). That would automatically make the room seem shorter, acoustically, in addition to eliminating many of the artifact associated with having speakers inside the room. Then add the typical basic treatment needed for that room: 36" superchunks in both rear corners, floor to ceiling, the rest of the rear wall covered with 6" of insulation, then all of your diffusers in front of that (including the ones that you currently have on the ceiling: they are no use up there). 4" OC-703 panels on the side walls at that first reflection points, or abeam your head if there are no first reflection points, then hang a large, angled, hard-backed cloud from the ceiling, between the speakers and your desk.

It could be quite decent.

- Stuart -

Thank so Stuart. I appreciate all your help. I will be donating to the website cause I can't imagine how much time you have in this.

My interface I used is a vsl1818 Presonus, so I must of done something wrong I will try this again in the next week.

1 last question. So would you mess with this bedroom or start over out in the living room and figure out how to build the walls like you suggested?it sounds like either way I have a lot of work to do?

I'm sure I'll need help with specific designs either way can I personally message you so I'm not only compensating the site but I can pay you for your time as well?

So the bedroom is 15'6" x 9'6" and the living room would be 13' x 14'6'.

I wouldn't think the living room is that much bigger to justify the expense? But I dont know anything so....

mbresch wrote:So the bedroom is 15'6" x 9'6" and the living room would be 13' x 14'6'.

I wouldn't think the living room is that much bigger to justify the expense? But I dont know anything so....

Either room would work. The volume of the bedroom is around 1200 cubic feet, and the volume of the living room is around 1500 (assuming both have 8 foot ceilings), so both are viable. A general rule of thumb is to have 1400 cubic feet or more, but 1200 is stil usable. The specs for "critical listening rooms" call for a floor area of about 200 to 700 square feet: your rooms are about 150 and 190, respectively. And finally, the relationship between the dimensions (often called "room ratio") is more favorable in the living room than the bedroom.

So there's a slight advantage to the living room from all of those aspects. However, there may be other factors involved. For example, the existing construction: The floor, walls, or ceiling might be better in one than the other, or doors and windows might be a factor. Or HVAC. Or electrical. Or the amount of construction needed, budget, etc. When I'm designing a place, I try to take into account all of the factors.

Short story: The living room would probably make for a better studio, provided that you can build walls to make it into a proper rectangular shape with no doors or windows in the corners, and provided that the floors, walls, and ceiling are at least as good as in the bedroom.


Feel free to PM me! No problem.


- Stuart -

I know it might not be ideal but can I hang my speakers off the wall instead of speaker stands? I've read some that it is not good because it couples with the wall? I can De-couple it with some rubber ft or something couldn't I?

I know it might not be ideal but can I hang my speakers off the wall instead of speaker stands? I've read some that it is not good because it couples with the wall? I can De-couple it with some rubber ft or something couldn't I?

I would not do that, no. Or at least, I would only do it if there was absolutely no way at all of mounting them properly, and I didn't really want good acoustics in my room!

The very best possible way of mounting your speakers is called "flush mount", or also "soffit mount". That means mounting then INSIDE the wall, such that the front face of the speaker is flush with the surface of the wall. Like that, the speaker is not actually in the room at all, and therefore does not suffer from all the problems associated with having the speakers inside the room. There is no SBIR from the front wall, no edge diffraction, no early reflections from the front wall, no phase cancellation and comb filtering, no power imbalance, etc. However, to do that right, you need to angle parts of the front wall in different ways, in order to get the speaker angles correct, so they are aimed properly at the mix position. You also need to build those "soffits" very rigidly and carefully, to prevent the speakers from transmitting vibration into the wall. That is undoubtedly the best method.

The next best method is to have the speakers on very heavy, massive, rigid, stands, right up against the front wall with just a small gap between the speaker and the wall. Once again, the stands need to be so heavy and rigid that the speakers cannot transmit sound through them into the floor.

The third method is... well there isn't one! At least, none that I would use...

I'm sure I'll need help with specific designs either way can I personally message you . . .

Certainly! Yes, please do contact me by PM ("Private Message"). I'd be happy to show you the methods I use for soffit-mounting speakers.


- Stuart -

I pm'd you let me know if you got it? It's in my outbox.

Hi Stuart
I've pmd u several times with no response. Are you there?