John Sayers' Recording Studio Design Forum Archive

After reading through a lot of items on the forum I have decided to say hello and intro myself.

I thought I might use Soundman's first post as a template.

I don't know much about construction but I can swing a hammer, use a saw or screwdriver (or their electric powered equivalents), read a diagram or schematic and can generally work things out if pointed in the right direction.
Who/Where am I? I am Wayne Dwyer. My wife and I are living on a farm on the outskirts of Grafton, NSW, Australia.
We are both retired. We have left our Sydney home for the quiet rural life. Raising some cattle on our 118 acre farm escape.

What am I attempting to do? I am trying to build a studio which will have a control room and a live room and perhaps an isolation booth. Depending the answers I get from this post.

Where am I right now in the project? I have just had a fairly large (15x7m) steel farm shed built for a 10x7m music studio and pottery studio 5x7m.

How loud am I? I like fairly loud music but I am learning to value my ears so I have toned it down a couple of notches. I even wear earplugs when I use the tractor for long periods as I have a touch of tinnitus. I have ordered a sound meter so I can give an accurate answer.

What do I record? I like blues and rock for the most part and I am trying to write some of my own stuff. Blues based, influenced by 60's 70's 80's. Hendrix and Zeppelin tragic. I have also considered offering the space for local young bands to make demo CD's, this could mean anything from punk, metal and country in this area

What is my budget? I already have a swag of audio equipment from a deceased estate sale. Hopefully most of it works. Cost will be mainly tradesmen as needed, materials, hardware and acoustic treatments, initially I am aiming for $10k but expect it to blow out as all budgets do.

What do I have to work with? I have a blank canvas within the confines of a 10x7m steel shed. There is a sliding door and window at one corner of the space, All other walls are windowless. The roof is a skillion with the lowest point being 3.2m above floor level. I think its a15 deg slope. There is a single skin steel wall between the music area and the pottery area.

What’s it made of? The entire shed is single sheet steel that we call colorbond. This is attached to a framework of 150mm gal steel, all of which is sitting on a 100mm concrete slab.
So at present its like walking around inside a drum. It consists of 3 @ 5m x 7m bays. 2 of which are the music studio with one partitioned off as the pottery. There will need to be some isolation not so much to protect my neighbours as their house is about 300m away, but I can see a problem with the fact that I am only about 8 meters from the boundary fence. Animal, Tractor and other farm machinery noises could be an issue along with environmental noise rain, thunder, wind etc.

What initial questions do I have?

I haven't touched on Electrical, HVAC or Signal Paths as yet, i am mainly interested in construction of the basic internal rooms.

1. It looks like a very big space but I know how quickly big spaces fill up once construction starts. So is a live room, isolation booth AND control room doable within these confines?

2. Which option is better concrete block walls or stud walls or one of each?

3. Is a tin shed more difficult to isolate?

I hope I have met with the requirements to get some answers to start my journey, I have some photos of the space available if you think you can help me.


regards
Wayne

Hi Wayne, and welcome!

How loud am I? I like fairly loud music but I am learning to value my ears so I have toned it down a couple of notches. I even wear earplugs when I use the tractor for long periods as I have a touch of tinnitus. I have ordered a sound meter so I can give an accurate answer.

Great! Use your meter to check the levels of a typical recording session, jamming session, rehearsal, etc. so you can get an idea of how loud things really get. Also check the level of your tractor! And check the level inside the shed when it is raining, hailing, windy, noisy things are going on outside, etc. Then finally, check the level outside when nothing is going on: Maybe late at night on a calm day where there's nobody around. That will give you a good sense of how much isolation you should be aiming for. In all cases set your meter to "C" weighting and "Slow" response.

What do I record? I like blues and rock for the most part and I am trying to write some of my own stuff. Blues based, influenced by 60's 70's 80's. Hendrix and Zeppelin tragic.

In other words. REAL music!

this could mean anything from punk, metal and country in this area

In other words: Noise, Noise and almost-music!

initially I am aiming for $10k ...

That's on the low side. $10,000 for 100 m2 is just $100 per m2. Considering good isolation, three rooms, good acoustics, HVAC, electrical, etc. hmmmm....definitely falling short.... I would suggest re-thinking that.

but expect it to blow out as all budgets do.

Yep! Better have an extra "zero" on hand, just in case... (OK, that's probably exaggerating, but do be prepared: with studio construction, costs can escalate unexpectedly.)

The roof is a skillion with the lowest point being 3.2m above floor level.

Nice! Good height.

... all of which is sitting on a 100mm concrete slab.

Slab on grade, I presume? In other words, a proper monolithic slab poured on the ground (probably with gravel or crushed stone and a vapor barrier), but nothing else under it? No basement, for example?

So at present its like walking around inside a drum.

Yep. It will get worse, once it is properly isolated.

I haven't touched on Electrical, HVAC or Signal Paths as yet, i am mainly interested in construction of the basic internal rooms.

Fair enough, but it all goes together. The HVAC is an integral part of the studio, and should be designed at the same time: HVAC ducts and especially silencer boxes take up a lot of space, so they need to be planned for, and the rooms need to be designed with those in mind.

1. It looks like a very big space but I know how quickly big spaces fill up once construction starts. So is a live room, isolation booth AND control room doable within these confines?

Yes, no problem. If the layout is good, there will be plenty of space for all three. The recommended minimum size for a high quality control room is 20m2 (see ITU BS.1116-2, for example), leaving 50 m2 for the booth and live room. In reality, you can even go a bit smaller on the CR if necessary. You might want to also consider including a bathroom, storage area, and even a kitchenette, especially if you will be renting out the studio to other bands, or even recording lots with your own friends. Your wife likely will not be too happy about a constant stream of musicians traipsing through the house to get the bathroom, make coffee, or warm up three-day old pizza. I would strongly recommend that you include at least a small bathroom and kitchenette, and if possible also a small storage room, where you can put the road cases, instrument cases, unused gear, cables, mic stands, and cases of beer, to keep them out of the way during the actual recording sessions. You probably do have the space to do that, if planned carefully. I have designed quite a few studios in that size range, and including most or all of the above facilities, so it can be done.

2. Which option is better concrete block walls or stud walls or one of each?

Concrete block takes up more space, but can potentially give you better isolation. Stud framing is also a good option, and might work out less expensive. There are pros and cons. But basically you will need a "fully-decoupled two-leaf MSM isolation system", which is just a fancy technical term for "two walls". In simple terms: you'll need to build one wall around the complete studio, creating an "outer leaf" shell, then you'll build a series of rooms inside that (CR, LR, Iso booth), with each one being a stand-alone single-leaf structure. The outer leaf could be concrete block, and the inner leaves could be stud framed walls with drywall (plasterboard) on just one side. That would give you excellent isolation, and good acoustics. For both "leaves", the same applies to the ceiling: you would need to build an outer leaf ceiling across the top of the concrete block outer shell, then you would put a separate "inner-leaf ceiling" on top of each room. This is the simplest and least expensive way to get good isolation easily.

3. Is a tin shed more difficult to isolate?

"Yes" if you try to use the tin as one of the two leaves. "No" if you forget about it and build your two-leaf studio inside of that, pretending it isn't there.

I hope I have met with the requirements to get some answers to start my journey, I have some photos of the space available if you think you can help me.

Definitely! Please post those so we can see what you are dealing with.


- Stuart -

Soundman2020 wrote:Great! Use your meter to check the levels of a typical recording session, jamming session, rehearsal, etc. so you can get an idea of how loud things really get. Also check the level of your tractor! And check the level inside the shed when it is raining, hailing, windy, noisy things are going on outside, etc. Then finally, check the level outside when nothing is going on: Maybe late at night on a calm day where there's nobody around. That will give you a good sense of how much isolation you should be aiming for. In all cases set your meter to "C" weighting and "Slow" respons

Will do. It has finally arrived. Thanks for those tips, I would not have known where to start

Soundman2020 wrote: In other words. REAL music!

I think so anyway

Soundman2020 wrote:In other words: Noise, Noise and almost-music!

I'm hearing ya mate, but if they want a start up the ladder i would be glad to help, who knows they might learn real music eventually hehehe.

Soundman2020 wrote:That's on the low side. $10,000 for 100 m2 is just $100 per m2. Considering good isolation, three rooms, good acoustics, HVAC, electrical, etc. hmmmm....definitely falling short.... I would suggest re-thinking that.

I will do some of the work myself, wiring and making bass traps etc but i am just setting a target of 10k for initial work with full expectations of it blowing out (don't tell the missus ok)

Soundman2020 wrote:Slab on grade, I presume? In other words, a proper monolithic slab poured on the ground (probably with gravel or crushed stone and a vapor barrier), but nothing else under it? No basement, for example?

Yep its a purpose built ground slab for a single storey shed

Soundman2020 wrote:.....The recommended minimum size for a high quality control room is 20m2 (see ITU BS.1116-2, for example), leaving 50 m2 for the booth and live room. In reality, you can even go a bit smaller on the CR if necessary. You might want to also consider including a bathroom, storage area, and even a kitchenette

Great info right there thanks Stuart, i have allowed for a kitchenette, lounge area and there's a nice covered verandah overlooking the goats, there is an outside toilet and washbasin on the corner of the house and i was going to try to fit a storeroom off the live room for instruments leads pedals and other gear.

Soundman2020 wrote:Concrete block takes up more space, but can potentially give you better isolation. Stud framing is also a good option, and might work out less expensive. There are pros and cons. But basically you will need a "fully-decoupled two-leaf MSM isolation system", which is just a fancy technical term for "two walls". In simple terms: you'll need to build one wall around the complete studio, creating an "outer leaf" shell, then you'll build a series of rooms inside that (CR, LR, Iso booth), with each one being a stand-alone single-leaf structure. The outer leaf could be concrete block, and the inner leaves could be stud framed walls with drywall (plasterboard) on just one side. That would give you excellent isolation, and good acoustics. For both "leaves", the same applies to the ceiling: you would need to build an outer leaf ceiling across the top of the concrete block outer shell, then you would put a separate "inner-leaf ceiling" on top of each room. This is the simplest and least expensive way to get good isolation easily

Good that's a relief i was building 3 double-skinned rooms, in my head, and trying to figure out how to isolate them. One brick shell and one stud wall per room is doable. It makes more sense when i read it now.

Steel or timber studs??

Soundman2020 wrote:"Yes" if you try to use the tin as one of the two leaves. "No" if you forget about it and build your two-leaf studio inside of that, pretending it isn't there.

How much separation would be needed to counter any possible 3rd leaf interaction of the tin wall?? There is 360mm of purlin and vertical support intruding into the room on both long sides and 320mm intrusion on one short side which would restrict how close the outer studio wall could get to the tin wall? I will be rockwooling the shed wall for thermal protection too.

Thanks for the replies Stuart, very much appreciated.

regards
Wayne

Soundman2020 wrote:Great! Use your meter to check the levels of a typical recording session, jamming session, rehearsal, etc. so you can get an idea of how loud things really get. Also check the level of your tractor! And check the level inside the shed when it is raining, hailing, windy, noisy things are going on outside, etc. Then finally, check the level outside when nothing is going on: Maybe late at night on a calm day where there's nobody around. That will give you a good sense of how much isolation you should be aiming for. In all cases set your meter to "C" weighting and "Slow" response

Hi Stuart,

Ok I have finally been able to use the new sound level meter.

Unfortunately it doesn't do what you ask.
Its a one trick pony that only uses "" A" weighting and fast 125ms response. It was already in the post when you told me what to use
I have no idea what difference this will make to my results or if these results can be converted somehow to reflect the specs you gave.

On a breezy afternoon with a few noisy birds, (Crows, Kookaburras and Butcher birds) and a couple of cars passing by I had an ambient reading between 39 - 47 dBa outside the building and 36 - 45 inside with doors shut. To me that says the building is doing nothing to shield and sounds from entering, which i expected. I haven't had a storm to try out but given the lack of isolation in the bare building, it will be loud in there.

I next went into my den/4th bedroom and plugged in the telecaster and played at a comfortable volume and i had 85 - 99 dBa, this is a 3x4m room.

I don't know what you can make of these figures except its going to take a lot of isolation to get it down to a quiet level.

Cheers
Wayne

Unfortunately it doesn't do what you ask.
Its a one trick pony that only uses "" A" weighting and fast 125ms response.

Darn. Not a lot of use for what you need.

Here's the difference between "A" and "C":
The red curve is "A" weighting. The green curve is "C".

As you can see, "A" weighting is not sensitive at all to low frequencies. In fact, for everything below 1 kHz (the entire bottom half of the audio spectrum), it rolls off steeply. In the area where drums, bass, the low side of the keyboard, growling electric guitars, and even male vocals live, it is deaf! For example, for bass guitar, it is about 20 to 40 dB down!

In other words, your meter did not "hear" any low frequencies when you took your readings. No traffic noise, no wind noise, no nothing.

There's also no way to convert between the two, since you don't know what the spectrum was. It is impossible to convert now: you would need to go back and measure with a meter that does have "C" weighting. All you have now is a single number that tells you what the average level was, after weighting each frequency on the scale. But there's no way of extrapolating backwards from that single number to get the individual readings again, and adjust them to the "C" scale.

Think of it like this: Imagine that you re the pilot of a plane, and you need to know how heavy your passenger load is, to make sure your plane can handle the load. So you tell your buddy to weight them all. And he comes back to tell you: "Average weight of the passengers is 73 kg". That sounds strange to you, since you expected something higher, so you ask him how he weighed them: "Well, I told them to put all their baggage down, and take off all their clothes, then I weighed them one by one, naked, and added up to get the total, then divided to get the average". "But that's no use!" you yell at him. "I need them fully weighed, with all their clothes and baggage!" There is no way to get that new number from the information you have. You already discarded the information at the "weighting" stage, by leaving out the clothes and baggage. It is mathematically impossible to work backwards and re-calculate the "fully-dressed-and-baggaged" weight, even though you know that there are 31 passengers, and the total weight is 2,263 kg. There is no mathematical function that can tell you what the individual weights would have been including clothes and bags. You don't know if there was one really huge fat guy that was wearing an entire circus tent and carrying dozens of bricks in each of his seven suitcases, or if there was one tiny little skinny girl in a bikini with no baggage at all! You just don't know what the "weight" of each passenger was, and there's no way of reversing your math to find out. You have to go back and weight again.

Same here: you have no way of knowing if there was a massively "heavy" band in the low end of your spectrum somewhere, which would greatly push up the "C" weighting but not affect the "A" weighting. And there's no way of going back on the math to find out, because your meter discarded that information the instant it passed the signal through the integration process and turned it into a single number. There's no going back. The integration strips the "passengers" of their cloths and bags...

So you'll need a better meter, and re-measure.

I have no idea what difference this will make to my results or if these results can be converted somehow to reflect he specs you gave

Nope!

On a breezy afternoon with a few noisy birds, (Crows, Kookaburras and Butcher birds) and a couple of cars passing by I had an ambient reading between 39 - 47 dBa outside the building and 36 - 45 inside with doors shut.

Well, you probably got the birds and some of the breeze, but you didn't get the cars and the rest of the breeze.

To me that says the building is doing nothing to shield and sounds from entering, which i expected.

Right! That's about all you can say from those readings. And considering that "C" weighting is more sensitive to lows, and that your building does a worse job of blocking lows, the results would be worse if your meter did have a "C" scale....

I haven't had a storm to try out but given the lack of isolation in the bare building, it will be loud in there.

Let's hope your new meter arrives before the next storm does!

I next went into my den/4th bedroom and plugged in the telecaster and played at a comfortable volume and i had 85 - 99 dBa, this is a 3x4m room.

Wow! You do like it loud, don't you!!! If your meter did have a "C" scale, that could have been anywhere up to about 115 dBC. When measuring music, I commonly see differences of 10 to 15 dB between "A" and "C".

But seeing such high readings when you say it was "comfortable", leads me to wonder if you were measuring correctly. You should have been measuring that with the meter in your hand, held straight out in front of you at arms length, chest height, with the mic tilted up towards the ceiling, and at least one meter away from the closest speaker. Is that how you did it?

I don't know what you can make of these figures except its going to take a lot of isolation to get it down to a quiet level.

Yup! No doubt about that at all!


- Stuart -

Thanks Stuart,
I had a good chuckle at the explanation and the rest of your reply.

It makes perfect sense the way you put it, this is gunna be one hell of a learning curve for me

Alright back to the drawing board for me, i will get another meter. Bugger, there's $90 wasted.

My amp is a Peavey Classic 30 Combo and it was set at about 2.5 volume on the clean channel, it's very loud especially in a bedroom. The meter was sitting on a desk near my elbow pointing towards the speaker, probably about 450mm above the centre of the speaker.

Cheers mate
Wayne

I had a good chuckle at the explanation and the rest of your reply.

I was hoping you'd get a giggle out of the mental image of all those passengers getting weighed... especially the guy in the circus tent with bricks for baggage! !

It makes perfect sense the way you put it, this is gunna be one hell of a learning curve for me

And here's the good news! That curve only gets steeper from here.... the higher up you go, the steeper it gets! Some of us are clawing our way bravely up the vertical part as we dangle over the dark abyss of empty acoustic space far below us, even right now, as we speak.... I'm not quite sure what I'm gonna do, once that curve bends over past vertical, the other way...

(I just thought I'd cheer you up, and let you know what's ahead... )

Alright back to the drawing board for me, i will get another meter. Bugger, there's $90 wasted.

If that's all you manage to waste on your entire build, then you are one lucky fellow indeed! At least you didn't blow an entire HVAC system, or drop a pallet of drywall, or some such....

On the other hand, if someone managed to get you to pay ninety bucks for a meter that only does "A" weighting and only handles "fast" integration, hhmmmm..... I'm not sure what that says....

This time, look for a good brand of meter, such as Extech or Galaxy, and check the specs to make sure it does do "C" and "Slow". If it also does "Leq", that's a bonus (but expensive). If it has a USB port so you can hook it to your computer, that's nice but not totally necessary. It might also have other useful features, such as peak hold, back-lighting, etc.

Now, if you really feel like blowing some good money on a good meter, get yourself what I have: Something like the Phonic PAA3, which is not just a sound level meter, but also a spectrum analyzer and signal generator, among other things. But it costs about $500. You don't need to spend that much, for sure, but for what I do, the features are very worthwhile.

The meter was sitting on a desk near my elbow pointing towards the speaker, probably about 450mm above the centre of the speaker.

Ahhh! That might explain it! Less than half the normal distance means a 6 dB increase at least, plus placing it on the desk surface means another 6 dB increase, since it is "seeing" half space, not full space. Plus possible vibration in the desk, plus possible reflections... it could have been showing as much as 15 to 20 dB too high when placed like that. So your 100 dBA "comfy listening" was very likely closer to 80 dBA.

If you have the chance, try the test again but with the meter used correctly, as I mentioned: Held in your hand at arm's length, chest height, mic pointing 60° up, and at least one meter from the closest sound source, with no obstructions between the meter and the source. That's the correct way to take a reading.

Cheers mate

Ditto!


- Stuart -

Soundman2020 wrote:

On the other hand, if someone managed to get you to pay ninety bucks for a meter that only does "A" weighting and only handles "fast" integration, hhmmmm..... I'm not sure what that says....

Actually i went back to that site and it was only about $60.

I found that "read me before you post" and re-read it. I must have missed or forgotten about the C weighting slow response specs there dammit.

Actually i went back to that site and it was only about $60.

Ahhh! So your dollars were "A" weighted, not "C" weighted? (And therefore worth a lot less... )

I found that "read me before you post" and re-read it. I must have missed or forgotten about the C weighting slow response specs there dammit.

Well, you live and you learn!

Do you have any update on the basic layout you are thinking of? We could start looking at that in the meantime. Or you could spend a little time getting acquainted with SketchUp! That's what we recommend for designing your studio. It takes a bit of getting used to, so the sooner you start, the better...

- Stuart -

Soundman2020 wrote:

Actually i went back to that site and it was only about $60.

Ahhh! So your dollars were "A" weighted, not "C" weighted? (And therefore worth a lot less... )

HAHAHA yeh yeh i get it . What's worse is i found the exact same bugger on eBay for $25

I found that "read me before you post" and re-read it. I must have missed or forgotten about the C weighting slow response specs there dammit.

Well, you live and you learn!

Do you have any update on the basic layout you are thinking of? We could start looking at that in the meantime. Or you could spend a little time getting acquainted with SketchUp! That's what we recommend for designing your studio. It takes a bit of getting used to, so the sooner you start, the better...

- Stuart -

The layout changes every time i walk into the space, and of course the questions keep coming.

Do i keep the sloped ceiling, square it off? If i keep the slope then that will determine the orientation of the room.

Is brick better by better isolation and saving on one run of insulation? Thinking that i would only need to insulate the stud walls... Have i got this right?

You've said 20m2 for the control room, i have seen the need for 4 spaces Control, Live, Isolation cum Store and Kitchen area.
i was planning to quarter the space or divide into uneven sections of 4 allowing larger spaces for Live and Control. How much room is needed for a 4 piece combo?

I have Sketchup but it doesn't like me much.
I added the housebuilder extn and can get it to draw stud walls. I cant get 3d concrete block walls to happen. I can make a rectangle and colour it brick but it a 2d image, there must be a package i am missing. Its on the list to sit down for a few hours and learn it or at least gain some more knowledge about it... I can see its a pretty powerful thing but i don't find it intuitive, and in my age group i am a relative geek...


Thanks Stuart

The layout changes every time i walk into the space, and of course the questions keep coming.

Sounds like a typical studio design, to be honest. Whenever i start out with a "blank slate" project, like yours, I go through the same thing. Most of my designs are in "Version 6" or "Version 7" before I think I'm on the right track, and on occasions I run through a dozen or more layouts before I see one that stands out, for whatever reason: Once one starts looking good, then then I develop it further. And sometimes even then I abandon it a while down the road, and move on to another version. My customers sometimes wonder why it sometimes takes me so long to send them a layout for comment, but they don't see the stuff going on behind the scenes to get to a good layout.

Do i keep the sloped ceiling, square it off? If i keep the slope then that will determine the orientation of the room.

Try both. Try some that keep that orientation, and others that ignore it.

Is brick better by better isolation and saving on one run of insulation?

Brick is better for isolation as one of your leaves, yes. No doubt about that. But it won't save you much on insulation.... more below...

Thinking that i would only need to insulate the stud walls... Have i got this right?

Not really... Ideally, you need to fill the entire wall cavity with insulation. To give you an idea, there is research out there that shows an empty cavity vs. a full cavity can cost you as much as 16 dB of isolation, all other factors being equal. What the insulation does is to damp resonances going on inside the cavity, notably standing waves that form between the inner-leaf surface and the outer-leaf surface, as well as others. Those rob you of isolation, because the transfer energy across the gap. Insulation interferes with that, by damping the resonance. They mire insulation you have, the better it works, as long as you don't force it in so tight that it creates bridging (flanking paths). Just lay it in loosely until it fills the cavity. If you fill the cavity partially, you still get good isolation, but you only get optimal with 100% fill. However, some building codes might not allow that...

You've said 20m2 for the control room, i have seen the need for 4 spaces Control, Live, Isolation cum Store and Kitchen area.

The kitchenette does not need to be isolated. That can be on the outer leaf. The others do need isolation.

i was planning to quarter the space or divide into uneven sections of 4 allowing larger spaces for Live and Control. How much room is needed for a 4 piece combo?

You have 70m2, which is roughly 750 ft2. That's very decent. I have done a full four room studio in 450 ft2: control room, live room, iso booth, drum booth. It's a very tight fit, yes, but it works. There are limitations of course, imposed by the tiny size, but the owner is very happy with it. I have also done two-room studios and even single-room studios in the same size space. It all depends on how you approach it.

20m2 for the CR is what the specs call for, but you can still get a very decent control room in less than that. With 70m2 to play with, you do have enough space to do what you want.

But don't think in terms of halving, quartering, "fifthing", "thirding" or any other "-ing". Start our by defining your needs: On paper, (or computer) write down a set of non-negotiables that you need the studio to meet, in terms of functionality. For example: How many people do you need to accommodate in the CR, maximum? Is that always, or just very occasional? How many in the LR for a typical session? What type of music, typically? Is load-in / load-out important? Will this be just for you and your buddies, or will this be for total strangers? What percentage each way? Etc. Ask yourself all the questions that I ask my customers, to get an idea about what the studio must accomplish. It's one thing to say that you'll be using it alone or with your best friend 90% of the time, and entirely another to say you will typically have a full rock group in the LR, the producer, director and two assistants with you in the CR, various WAG's hanging around, and the next band pulling up in their 18 wheeler, read to load-in, just as you are finishing off this session.

In other words, try to define what the studio must do. That will lead you to important decisions about how to lay it out, how much space to assign to each room, access routes, sight lines, etc.

I have Sketchup but it doesn't like me much.

One word: "Youtube". There are many excellent tutorials on Youtube that teach you how to use SketchUp.

I added the housebuilder extn and can get it to draw stud walls. I cant get 3d concrete block walls to happen.

Don't worry about extensions yet, until you grasp the basics. That's like saying that you want to learn to fly, then engaging the autopilot the second you get in the plane! First learn how to fly, then worry about the autopilot.

I can make a rectangle and colour it brick but it a 2d image, there must be a package i am missing.

Nope, you are not missing anything! Immediately after you have your rectangle, double-click on it so that is selected (little blue dots all over the surface) and the lines that define the edges are also selected (they turn blue). Right click "Make Component" and select "Replace selection with component". ALWAYS do that, every time you make new geometry. Making all new things into components is one of the keys. Now double-click again to select the component that you just made (same thing: little blue dots all over the surface). Select the "push/pull" tool, click on the surface that you have selected, and move your mouse... Magic! You can now do the same with any of the six sides of your new object... Select "Edit --> Close group/component" to "get out" of that component. While you are "in" the component, you can edit its various parts, move them around, change them, etc. Once you get "out" of that component, you can mode the entire component around.

I can see its a pretty powerful thing but i don't find it intuitive, and in my age group i am a relative geek...

That likely makes two of us! But who cares? I do not believe the saying that says you can't teach an old dog new tricks. Dogs get to be old by being smart....

However, if you really feel that this is just too much for you (acoustics really is a HUGE thing!), or it would take you too long to learn, then consider hiring a studio designer to do it for you. PM John himself, to see if he is interested/available to take on your project. If not, then PM me, and I'll be happy to put you in touch with other studio designers that I trust. You might be worried about cost, but studio design/consulting services might not cost as much as you think, and could actually save you a bunch in the long run. Design mistakes can be very costly!

BUT!!! Beware of unsolicited offers you might get for studio design services, coming from supposed forum members! Lately I've seen some evidence of other studio "designers" using the forum as a lead generator: they hang around, looking for unsuspecting forum members like yourself who might need help, then offer all kinds of wonderful solutions, at "cheap" prices. Watch out for those guys! They are NOT authorized by John or myself to offer their services. John has a very strict rule about that: his forum may not be used to advertise any product or service. He does not endorse or promote any product or service, other than his own studio design services. There are many forum members who work for acoustic product manufacturers, design firms, etc., but they all respect that rule, so beware....

I'd be happy to put you in touch with other studio designers if John is unable to help you, but you'll make the first contact, not them! I only recommend people I trust, and they won't contact you first (unless I let you know in advance that they will).

If someone does contact you out of the blue, then please let me know.



- Stuart -

Once again Stuart,
I appreciate your guidance.

I will re read this slowly and take it all on board and see where it leads me.
I am going to spend this afternoon trying out that component thing in Sketchup. AND YouTube is going to get a workout too.
I am Home Alone for at least 5 days so i can concentrate

At least everything doesn't have to come to a screeching halt while i wait for the newer, new meter

I have been having a go at Sketchup and came up with an initial plan. Thanks for the component tips, Stuart, worked well for me
I know there are no doors yet.... before you say it lol. I haven't learned doors yet.

This is how I see the outer leaf wall.

I have found a sound level meter but i want to be sure before i go to the trouble of dealing with an overseas vendor.
I haven't located a local dealer yet in Australia that sells them.

The meter is the Galaxy Audio CM-140
It has A and C weighting, fast and slow
Up to 130 dB
Compact handheld

It is a reasonably priced unit and it seems to cover the specs discussed earlier in this post.

http://www.guitarcenter.com/Galaxy-Audi ... m_page.rr2

cheers
Wayne