John Sayers' Recording Studio Design Forum Archive

Hello,

I've been doing research on a few different sites and sources and have come up with a design I think would work best but wanted to get some other opinions in case I'm not thinking or seeing something. This space is doubling as my bedroom so it's going to be slightly tricky. I've attached the floor plan and pictures of the ceilings for reference. This is my plan so far.

The Room: The ceilings in this space are quite tall. About 15 feet or so. The floor and ceiling are concrete. The walls are drywall with metal studs. One wall (as seen in the floor plan) is a giant window. This window is about 9' x 6'
Speaker placement: I'm planning on setting up for 5.1 mixing. Against the 11' 3" wall where the headboard of the bed is shown would be the front wall where R-C-L-LFE speakers would go. As close to the wall as possible. Taking into consideration room for sound dampening material Rear L-R speakers would go behind.
Acoustic Treatment:

FLOOR: large shag rug approximately 5' x 8'

WALLS: I'm going to be making this style of acoustic treatment 2' x 4'. http://www.instructables.com/id/Make-ac ... studio-or/ Placing them in the three corners of the bedroom and where first sound refraction occurs directly to the left and right (short wall that's next to the bathroom and one on the window) The opposite wall from the front is where I'd have my fold up murphy bed that will have sound dampening added to bottom. That way when it's folded up for mixing it will provide more acoustic treatment. The frame for the bed may stick out about 25" or so? (haven't started building it yet so this may vary). I'm not entirely sure what to do about the space where the entrance door and bathroom are located. I know i'm going to add treatment to the walls but I don't know about the corners? or how that'll effect the sound given my mixing position? Also putting panels on the front wall and any large surfaces of wall going up to the ceiling. Maybe 12, 4' x 2' panels or so? As for the window there are see through shades i can pull down that would probably dampen the sound some. I had not planned on doing extra treatment to this wall. Maybe i should make the window my front wall? I could then put an acoustic curtain across the opening leading to the doors? just another thought.

CEILING: I'm not to sure on this actually. I had initially wanted to have a hanging cloud/ floating ceiling but given the sprinklers and fire code I won't be able to do that. My only thoughts were to glue some egg crate style foam to the ceiling and then angle the top most set of acoustic paneling out from the wall creating a bit of an overhang.

That's what i've thought of so far. Any advice would be great and very appreciated! *Sorry I could rotate the pictures

Hi Okie. Welcome!

I'm planning on setting up . . .

For 5.1, I would set up that room a bit different. Actually, for 2.0 or 2.1, I'd still set it up different! I would face the room towards the window. Make that the front of the room. Yes, that does mean that you'll have to put treatment in front of the window, partially, but you'll have to do that anyway. The reasons for setting it up that way are mainly for 1) symmetry, and 2) to have the speakers firing down the long axis, instead of the short axis.

R-C-L-LFE speakers would go ... As close to the wall as possible.

Right.

FLOOR: large shag rug approximately 5' x 8'

Bad idea. Here's why:

Carpet absorbs high frequencies very well, mids to a certain extent but randomly and rising with respect to frequency, then does absolutely nothing at all to low frequencies. That's the opposite of what a small room needs. All small rooms need huge amounts of low frequency absorption, some in the mid-range but less and less as frequency rises, with little to none in the high end. Here's what carpet actually does, according to a test that was done by Riverbank laboratories, one of the most respected acoustic test labs in the world:
Carpet makes your room sound dull, boomy, thuddy, muddy, lifeless, etc.

Secondly, it is on the floor, which means it destroys the reflections from the floor that your brain relies on to build an "acoustic picture" of the room. All your life, wherever you go, your ears are exactly the same height above the floor, and your brain is very, very accustomed to figuring out the acoustic signature of the room based on the reflections it hears from the floor. If you sit down, your brain recognizes that, and adjusts it's "image" of the room accordingly. It does not use the ceiling or the walls for that, because the distance from your ears to the walls and ceiling changes all the time, many times per second as you walk around, so the "signature" is not constant or consistent. Ceilings are different heights, and when you walk outdoors, there is no ceiling at all! But there is still a floor, and it is still the same distance from your ears as every other floor.

If you have carpet on the floor, your brain no longer has any reflections to use for this.

So forget the carpet. You'll find it really hard to have a good acoustic setup in a room with thick carpet on the floor. Take a look at some photos of high-end pro studios: how many of those have thick carpet on the floor? There's a reason for that...

You might, possibly, maybe, perhaps need a small thin throw-rug as the final touch in the completely treated room if there's still a little too much high end left over, but starting out with a large carpet on half the floor is not the best way to do it.

WALLS: I'm going to be making this style of acoustic treatment 2' x 4' . . .

There's some good info in that article, but there's more than a couple of mistakes as well. For starters, they didn't cut large holes or slots in the side panels, so the threw away about 20% of the effectiveness... plus, they only used 2" 703, which is rather thin for a small room. And they also suggested that mineral wool and fiberglass insulation are equivalent, have the same acoustic properties, and should always have a density of 3 PCF. Not true. That's plain wrong, and misleading. For good bass abortion, you would want a density of 2 PCF (not 3 PCF) if you are using fiberglass, and 3 PCF you are using mineral wool. They are different products, with different GFR parameters. For absorbers that are aimed at the mids and highs, but not the lows, you would want a higher density in both cases, Maybe 3 to 4 PCF for fiberglass, and perhaps as much as 5 PCF in the case of mineral wool.

Those were just a few of the more blatant errors in that article. So I wouldn't put too much credence in it. They absorbers as shown there will work, yes, but not as effectively as they could if properly made form the correct materials. They also could have limited the "trimming off the insulation to fit the frame" thing to just ONE side of the 703, by thinking the design through a little better...

Besides, you don't yet know what panels you will need, what frequency ranges they should cover, or where they should go! You'll only know that for sure after you test the room, to see how the acoustic response is at present (empty room).

Placing them in the three corners of the bedroom

Those panels would be totally inadequate as bass traps. They are only 2" thick! It's a small room, so it will need abundant bass trapping. The normal recommendation here on the forum for bass trapping in rooms like yours, is "superchunk" style bass traps. They are also made from 703, but used rather differently... Even then, it won't be enough. The room is small.

The opposite wall from the front is where I'd have my fold up murphy bed that will have sound dampening added to bottom. That way when it's folded up for mixing it will provide more acoustic treatment.

Save yourself some trouble. and just by one of those "sofa-beds", where there's a pull out mechanism under the seat that folds out into a bed, complete with mattress. That way, it can be a client sofa during the day, and a bed at night. It could go across the rear of the room, centered, just in front of the bathroom wall. Yes, one end would stick out a bit past the end of the wall, but that's the best location for it, acoustically.

Maybe i should make the window my front wall?

Yes! definitely!

I could then put an acoustic curtain across the opening leading to the doors? just another thought.

Nope. Just the pull-out sofa-bed.

CEILING: I'm not to sure on this actually. I had initially wanted to have a hanging cloud

Yes! Definitely! Absorption panels directly on most of the ceiling (maybe 60%), and a cloud lower down, over the desk. Or rather, over the desk and the area between the desk and the speakers. Make it an angled, hard-backed cloud

but given the sprinklers and fire code I won't be able to do that.

Why not? Fire code normally says that the sprinklers cannot be obstructed, and must be able to cover a certain area of the room, so build your clouds to comply with that. Not a problem.

My only thoughts were to glue some egg crate style foam to the ceiling and then angle the top most set of acoustic paneling out from the wall creating a bit of an overhang.

*Sorry I could rotate the pictures

My neck is killing me from trying to look at those and figure them out!! Any good photo editing tool will allow you to rotate them.

That's what i've thought of so far. Any advice would be great and very appreciated!

I would suggest that you try doing an actual layout of your room in SketchUp, putting all the bits and pieces in place, checking the angles and distances, to make sure it all works out.

You didn't mention anything at all about isolation, so I assume that you don't need any: no neighbors to disturb, and nothing that could disturb you?

You also didn't mention HVAC...


- Stuart -

Great to know about the carpet!!! I was thinking I needed as much absorption as possible but that makes sense about how your ears need to perceive sound with that reflection.

You'll only know that for sure after you test the room

I'll definitely do this in the next day or two and post the results!

"superchunk" style bass traps

How high would you recommend I build these? Just above listening position? Or as high as I can?

Save yourself some trouble. and just by one of those "sofa-beds"

My only second thought on this is my ability to get a good nights sleep. Something I'll have to weigh out.

My neck is killing me

When I was importing them they were right side up but flipped when encoded re-saving them to my desktop seemed to work okay!

I would suggest that you try doing an actual layout of your room in SketchUp

I'll do this shortly! Also to answer your question about neighbors. My studio/bedroom shares the wall with their living room. They're pretty quite and haven't complained about noise. Probably a good idea to have a conversation with them. What would some isolation ideas be? As far as HVAC, it's loud. I generally turn it off when I'm mixing. I've thought about duct silencers but i'm not sure about the effectiveness of this compared to just turning it off..

"superchunk" style bass traps

How high would you recommend I build these? Just above listening position? Or as high as I can?

Floor to ceiling. "Superchunks" are most effective when they cover the complete corner. Do a forum search for the word "superchunk", to find out how to build them and where to put them.

Save yourself some trouble. and just by one of those "sofa-beds"

My only second thought on this is my ability to get a good nights sleep. Something I'll have to weigh out.

I have two of those in my living room, for guests. I've slept on them myself a few times, and they are surprisingly comfortable. The type I'm talking about is pretty much the same as a normal bed:

As far as HVAC, it's loud. I generally turn it off when I'm mixing. I've thought about duct silencers but i'm not sure about the effectiveness of this compared to just turning it off..

Is that just the ducts coming through the wall over the windows? Or is there something else in there as well? Silencer boxes can be VERY effective, if designed and built correctly.


- Stuart -

Is that just the ducts coming through the wall over the windows?

That is the only vent coming into the room. Perhaps a duct silencer would be a good route to take. I believe that requires me to take the duct apart correct?

I'll plan on building them floor to ceiling. This project is going to be a lot of insulation, Oofta! What I may try is putting my bed on a pulley system. Then it could double as a hanging cloud. We'll see though. I could go the sofa sleeper route. We'll see how much wherewithal I have.