Speaker type and placement

[danklim]

Hi, first time here, hope i've made the post properly, please let me know if there's anything i left out/forgot to do. i’m setting up a studio in a now empty room in a house and looking for advice with how to set up the audio, specifically where is the best place to put speakers and what would be the best speakers for the job. There is a picture with dimensions at the bottom. Would appreciate any input you could offer!


The studio is going to be used to record both video and audio, mostly for music but also for some non-musical skits and youtube shows, but i’m mostly concerned about the music audio for now. When i record video here, i use green screens for almost everything, so i have 2 10 ft green screens surrounding the area which i will play in (see the picture for a floorplan of how i’m planning to have it set up so far). Cameras are set up around the computer workstation and in the middle of the room aiming towards the green screens.

I play multiple instruments, mostly guitar and keyboard, so these will be set up in the green screen area. There will be a midi drum kit somewhere on the other side of the room. I sing often while playing these instruments and will have at least two microphones set up- one condenser mic for singing at the keyboard, and one shotgun mic aimed at where i’ll play guitar. (specific models of mics shown at bottom. and where i’m planning to set them up is shown in the picture attached at the bottom.)

Here are four questions i am trying to figure out:


1. Is it possible to completely avoid feedback issues in this room? I’ve set up this studio in three rooms before this, and all of them were smaller (around 10x15 max), and i’ve had ALOT of feedback issues in each, which have prevented me from playing the way i want to. Part of the problem may have been that i was using a little keyboard amp as a main speaker that probably wasn’t good enough (it is a Behringer KT108). While this room is bigger and i know that is a good thing, i don’t know too much about audio room engineering/acoustics and don’t know if this room is big enough for a proper setup. So i am wondering if i will be able to say goodbye to the feedback in this room finally or if it will still be an issue. Also wondering if the tilted walls shown in the picture would affect this?

2. What is the best type of speaker for this set up? I’ve looked into studio monitors, amps, and PA’s and not sure what the best way to go is. I play pop, folk, rock mostly. I’d like for the speakers to be able to produce good sounds for all instruments- including the drums, electric guitar, keyboard synthesizers, and vocal effects. Could one speaker handle these well or Would it be much better to get multiple speakers for different instruments? Sometimes i like to play pretty loud, but the speakers don’t need to be able to blast music at very high volumes. The KT 108 keyboard amp has mostly been fine as far as volume goes really, it just seems to be very reactive to feedback (though it could be the current room size/setup ) and the sound gets very muddled. Budget is an issue- would prefer not to spend more than 200-300 dollars, but willing to spend more if it will make a big difference.

3. Where should i set up the speakers? In which direction?I will mostly be in the green screen area and computer area while listening. I am setting up a looping system so i can jump between instruments and loop them together, so hearing the audio well from this area is important (and being able to do it without headphones is important too). As far as i understand, aiming the speakers away from where i am playing is the best way to avoid feedback, but i am wondering how that will work when i want to hear the audio that i am looping while playing it. I’m open to aiming the instruments and microphones in different ways to get better audio setup, as long as they are in the green screen area.

4. Should i acoustically treat the room in any way? What way? The green screens are a light fabric, so they may dampen sound a bit but not much.

Thanks so much for your help! Let me know if there’s any more details i can provide!


PICTURE OF INTENDED FLOORPLAN
https://www.dropbox.com/s/a1tzddwsri...26.54.png?dl=0


shotgun mic : https://www.amazon.com/Audio-Technic...ca+shotgun+mic
(i am using a shotgun mic to allow me to make video recordings without the mic being in the shot)

condenser mic : https://www.amazon.com/Behringer-C-1...hone+condenser

[Soundman2020]

Hi there "danklim", and welcome to the forum!

I tried to download your image, and this is what I got when I clicked on your link:

dropbox-error-404.png

So I can't really comment on what you are talking about much, as I can't see the pic!

In fact, it would be better to just upload it right here on the forum.

(the same happens with your Amazon links: they just go to error pages...)

You didn't give the dimensions either (except in the invisible image), so I also can't tell you where to set up your speakers, or your treatment, or anything else. All I can do is to offer some general comments, that may or may not be applicable, as I'll have to make many assumptions.

First, it isn't too clear what you mean by "studio" here: Are you talking about a control room setup, where you will actually be mixing audio? As in making songs commercially, that have to be good quality? If so, then that's one type of setup, with one very specific type of room treatment. On the other hand, you also mention what sounds like live-room tracking, which is a very different acoustic setup. so please could you clarify which of the two you are talking about.

and one shotgun mic aimed at where i’ll play guitar.

A shotgun mic? For acoustic guitar? Recorded at a distance? Ummm... no. Just no. Acoustic guitar will not sound good recorded like that. You need a good instrument mic, up reasonably close, in front of the neck of the guitar and a bit higher, and aimed slightly down, roughly at the spot where the neck meets the body of the guitar. That will usually give a nice sound for most guitars and genres. Even a plain old cheap SM-57 can give very decent guitar sounds, when correctly placed like this.

1. Is it possible to completely avoid feedback issues in this room?

Why would there be feedback? I'm not following. If you are tracking, then you are usually listening on headphones, to prevent bleed, so the mics will not be picking up their own sound because it won't even be in the room, hence, no feedback. And if you are mixing, then the mics are off. No feedback there either. Please explain why you think there would be feedback.

I’ve set up this studio in three rooms before this, and all of them were smaller (around 10x15 max), and i’ve had ALOT of feedback issues in each,

Then the problem is not the room! The problem is the method. There's something drastically wrong with your method of tracking, if you have speakers on in the same room as your mics. You need to change your method, so that the ONLY sound in the room while you are tracking, is the instrument itself. The musician(s) do not listen on speakers in the room: they listen on the headphone mix, using headphones or in-ear monitors. You cannot track an instrument if the room is filled with the sound of something else except the instrument itself.

Part of the problem may have been that i was using a little keyboard amp as a main speaker that probably wasn’t good enough

All of the problem is that you were using any amp or speaker at all!

i don’t know too much about audio room engineering/acoustics and don’t know if this room is big enough for a proper setup. So i am wondering if i will be able to say goodbye to the feedback in this room finally or if it will still be an issue.

If you correct your method of recording, and do it correctly, you will not have any problems with feedback, since there will be no speakers on in the room while you are tracking instruments. The only sound in the room will be the instrument itself, if it is an acoustic instrument. If you are tracking fully electronic instruments, then there won't be any sound at all in the room (and you would not be using the mics either, in that case!)

2. What is the best type of speaker for this set up? I’ve looked into studio monitors, amps, and PA’s and not sure what the best way to go is. I play pop, folk, rock mostly. I’d like for the speakers to be able to produce good sounds for all instruments- including the drums, electric guitar, keyboard synthesizers, and vocal effects. Could one speaker handle these well

Once again, this is a little confusing: are you asking about what studio reference monitors you should be using to do your mixes on, when you are mixing the songs? If so, then you need a speaker that has absolutely flat frequency response across the entire audio spectrum, or at least down the the lowest frequency that you need to hear. For example, if you will be mixing five-string bass or six-string bass, then your studio monitors need to be flat down to about 30 Hz, since that's roughly where the lowest note is. But if you have no bass, then you don't need that. For someone who only even tracks and mixes vocals, then the speakers would not need to be flat much below about 80 Hz., as that's roughly the lower limit of the human voice. Etc.

Your studio monitors also need to be large/powerful enough to handle the room volume: they need to be able to produce 85 dBC all day, effortlessly, as that's a common mixing level, and also the calibration point for studios and cinemas. But the also need to be able to go much louder for short periods, with zero distortion, clipping, or other artifacts. They need to be able to produce at least a hundred times higher intensity, for those times when you want to "check the mix", or just impress the hell out of your friends.

They also need to have good off-axis response, mainly horizontally but also vertically, to a certain extent.

Any good near-field studio monitor will do the job. Personally, I happen to like the Adam A7X, A8X at the low end, as well as Focal Twins, most of the Genelec range, and also the Eve SC-407. Those are all good studio reference monitors, but there are several others.

Budget is an issue- would prefer not to spend more than 200-300 dollars, but willing to spend more if it will make a big difference.

There is nothing at all in that price range for serious studio monitors. Sorry. You'll need to go up quite a bit to get useful speakers. The Adam A7X (which is about the minimum I'd recommend for what you want to do) goes for around US$ 700 or so. The Eve SC207 is similar in price and capability. So is the Genelec 8030. The Focal Twin or Eve SC407 pushes it way up, out of your ball park.

That's the type of speaker you need for doing accurate mixes on.

3. Where should i set up the speakers?

Symmetrically, at the front of the room, correctly angled towards the mix position. The room must be symmetrical, for obvious reasons, and the speakers must be set up symmetrically in the room. Unless the room is very large, the speakers should go up against the front wall, with just enough space for the acoustic treatment panel that goes between the speaker and the wall (4" thick, usually): They should be set apart the correct distance, they should be located at the correct distance from the side walls, they should be angled correctly towards a point about 18" behind where your head will be at the mix position, they should be set up at the correct height, which is when the acoustic axis of the speaker is exactly 47-1/4" above the floor, they should be sitting on very heavy, massive, decoupled, damped, isolated speaker stands, never on the desk or meter bridge of the console, etc. I can't be more specific than that, as I can't see your layout pic...

I will mostly be in the green screen area and computer area while listening.

Not if you want to mix accurately! to do that, you'll have to be in the "sweet spot", created by the correct speaker setup...

I am setting up a looping system so i can jump between instruments and loop them together, so hearing the audio well from this area is important (and being able to do it without headphones is important too).

I don't understand: Why would you want to track without headphones??? That doesn't make a lot of sense. I could understand that if you are just talking about purely electronic instruments, with no mics active: in that case, you could indeed have the instrument playing through the studio monitors, but if you have any mic open then the monitors have to be off, or you'll get terrible comb filtering, feedback, a "thin" and "hollow" sound to the instruments, no body, no warmth.... Why would you want to track like that?

As far as i understand, aiming the speakers away from where i am playing is the best way to avoid feedback, but i am wondering how that will work when i want to hear the audio that i am looping while playing it.

When you are looping and tracking at the same time, you'll be wearing good quality studio headphones, and the speakers will be off. They cannot be on, or they will cause all of the above issues that will trash your tracking sessions. If you are concerned about getting tangled in the headphone cable, or tripping over it, then use a wireless link. There are several good ones out there, not too expensive. That will give you all the freedom you need to run around from instrument to instrument while you loop and track, with no need to go back the console and change the monitor mix each time you move from a mic'd instrument to an electronic instrument.

4. Should i acoustically treat the room in any way?

Absolutely, totally, and unequivocally YES! No doubt at all. Tracking in an empty room would be terrible. Each acoustic instrument should be in a location in the room that provides the right acoustic conditions for that instrument. Acoustic guitar is one thing, vocals is another, mic'd electric guitar is something different again, drums is very different, acoustic piano, percussion, brass, strings... all need different acoustic environments to track successfully. So for a large room, it's best to have different "zones" treated in different ways, and find the spot that best suits each instrument. Or use gobos to change the room acoustics. Or have variable acoustic devices in the room that can be opened, closed, rotated, flipped, or whatever to change the acoustic response.

For the control room area, the treatment is very specific: it must be completely neutral, as specified by ITU BS.1116-2 and other similar documents, or as close as you can get to that, given the limitations of the room itself. Here's an example of a well treated control room: http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewt ... =2&t=20471 Scroll down for the acoustic test graphs, that show the type of response you need to aim for.

So you most definitely WILL need treatment.

Thanks so much for your help! Let me know if there’s any more details i can provide!

- Photos of the actual room, in several different directions.
- Dimensions of the room
- Your initial plan



- Stuart -

[danklim]

Hi Stuart, thanks for your reply, really appreciate it! sorry for taking a while to respond, has been a bit crazy with the move. I've included the pic again- sorry about that- hopefully it works now! . and here's some pics of the studio . I've read thru everything and am considering going with IEM’s for most of the microphone related recordings and using PA or studio monitors when not using the microphone. I've written responses to your individual responses and some follow up questions below:

btw i'm not sure how to use the quotes, so ive marked your comments with hyphens and mine with plus signs to make it easier to reaad.

------- A shotgun mic? For acoustic guitar? Recorded at a distance? Ummm... no. Just no. Acoustic guitar will not sound good recorded like that. You need a good instrument mic, up reasonably close, in front of the neck of the guitar and a bit higher, and aimed slightly down, roughly at the spot where the neck meets the body of the guitar. That will usually give a nice sound for most guitars and genres. Even a plain old cheap SM-57 can give very decent guitar sounds, when correctly placed like this.

++++++The reason i’m using a shotgun mic is to keep the mic out of the shot for the green screen. I know its not the best solution for the audio, but is the best solution i can think of so far considering the video

-------Why would there be feedback? I'm not following. If you are tracking, then you are usually listening on headphones, to prevent bleed, so the mics will not be picking up their own sound because it won't even be in the room, hence, no feedback. And if you are mixing, then the mics are off. No feedback there either. Please explain why you think there would be feedback.

+++++++Feedback has been an issue when i am playing an instrument, singing into the microphone and not tracking on headphones. I wanted to track on the speakers instead of headphones because sometimes because they are uncomfortable and sometimes they take away from the shot for the video. I was willing to accept some decrease in audio quality for these factors.

--------Then the problem is not the room! The problem is the method. There's something drastically wrong with your method of tracking, if you have speakers on in the same room as your mics. You need to change your method, so that the ONLY sound in the room while you are tracking, is the instrument itself. The musician(s) do not listen on speakers in the room: they listen on the headphone mix, using headphones or in-ear monitors. You cannot track an instrument if the room is filled with the sound of something else except the instrument itself.

++++++Yes i think my method has been at least a big part of the problem.

But i have seen people performing with loop pedals that dont seem to be wearing headphones. Is this just because a) they are in large and acoustically friendly rooms and/or b) they may have been wearing IEM’s that i didn’t see? Or is there something i’m missing? I am relatively a novice at recording and am constantly learning, so i might have just misunderstood this.

-----------If you correct your method of recording, and do it correctly, you will not have any problems with feedback, since there will be no speakers on in the room while you are tracking instruments. The only sound in the room will be the instrument itself, if it is an acoustic instrument. If you are tracking fully electronic instruments, then there won't be any sound at all in the room (and you would not be using the mics either, in that case!)

++++++I typically record both vocals and piano/guitar at the same time. I know a lot of musicians will record these separately and use vocal booths for the vocal recordings. Is it possible to record both vocals and an instrument at the same time with speakers? Or only with headphones/ IEMs?

---------2. What is the best type of speaker for this set up? I’ve looked into studio monitors, amps, and PA’s and not sure what the best way to go is. I play pop, folk, rock mostly. I’d like for the speakers to be able to produce good sounds for all instruments- including the drums, electric guitar, keyboard synthesizers, and vocal effects. Could one speaker handle these well

Once again, this is a little confusing: are you asking about what studio reference monitors you should be using to do your mixes on, when you are mixing the songs? If so, then you need a speaker that has absolutely flat frequency response across the entire audio spectrum, or at least down the the lowest frequency that you need to hear

++++++I meant to play and live monitor the speakers through the instruments. For example, when i play synths on my keyboard hearing them live and singing (though this might not be possible based on the other stuff we’ve discussed).

Would using PA/stage monitors help to make this kind of live playing setup while in my studio? Or is this kind of live playing only possible when in a suitable live environment?

-----------There is nothing at all in that price range for serious studio monitors. Sorry. You'll need to go up quite a bit to get useful speakers. The Adam A7X (which is about the minimum I'd recommend for what you want to do) goes for around US$ 700 or so. The Eve SC207 is similar in price and capability. So is the Genelec 8030. The Focal Twin or Eve SC407 pushes it way up, out of your ball park.

That's the type of speaker you need for doing accurate mixes on.

+++++++I’ve read a lot of good reviews about the JBL 305s and they cost 300. Any particular reason why you dont think these be be good for my purposes? Would they satisfy the other requirements you listed of good monitors?

--------When you are looping and tracking at the same time, you'll be wearing good quality studio headphones, and the speakers will be off. They cannot be on, or they will cause all of the above issues that will trash your tracking sessions. If you are concerned about getting tangled in the headphone cable, or tripping over it, then use a wireless link. There are several good ones out there, not too expensive. That will give you all the freedom you need to run around from instrument to instrument while you loop and track, with no need to go back the console and change the monitor mix each time you move from a mic'd instrument to an electronic instrument.

++++++I havent heard of these devices but it seems helpful. With a wireless link, i can use IEM's or headphones while recording into logic, and it works seemlessly? I just did a quick search on amazon and only found this: https://www.amazon.com/Bose-SoundTouch- ... eless+link . Is this what you mean? Are there other good ones to go with and is this along the best price range?

-------Absolutely, totally, and unequivocally YES! No doubt at all. Tracking in an empty room would be terrible. Each acoustic instrument should be in a location in the room that provides the right acoustic conditions for that instrument. Acoustic guitar is one thing, vocals is another, mic'd electric guitar is something different again, drums is very different, acoustic piano, percussion, brass, strings... all need different acoustic environments to track successfully. So for a large room, it's best to have different "zones" treated in different ways, and find the spot that best suits each instrument. Or use gobos to change the room acoustics. Or have variable acoustic devices in the room that can be opened, closed, rotated, flipped, or whatever to change the acoustic response.

For the control room area, the treatment is very specific: it must be completely neutral, as specified by ITU BS.1116-2 and other similar documents, or as close as you can get to that, given the limitations of the room itself. Here's an example of a well treated control room: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=20471 Scroll down for the acoustic test graphs, that show the type of response you need to aim for.

So you most definitely WILL need treatment.

+++++Thanks for these details. I plan to do most of my vocals recording and guitar recording at the same time and am willing to accept a loss in quality because of this. Are there any treatments that you'd suggest for my room that would have the highest leverage effects?


Thanks so much, cant say how much i appreciate your taking the time.

-dan

[danklim]

not sure if i did those IMGs correctly up there, these might work better?

https://www.dropbox.com/s/a1tzddwsrifbs ... 4.png?dl=0


https://www.dropbox.com/sc/6o09dy76t0fa ... l2BN9vwJKa

[Soundman2020]

i'm not sure how to use the quotes, so ive marked your comments with hyphens and mine with plus signs to make it easier to reaad.

I fixed it for you. Just highlight the test you want to quote, and hit the "quote" button at the top of the text window.

++++++The reason i’m using a shotgun mic is to keep the mic out of the shot for the green screen.

Shotgun mics have terrible frequency response. They are often used in film-making to capture the reference dialog in acoustically poor environments, which is then replaced during post-production with the REAL dialog, that is recorded in an ADR studio. That's the normal procedure. In the ADR studio, the actors use headphones and high quality studio mics, not shotguns.

I know its not the best solution for the audio, but is the best solution i can think of so far considering the video

Music videos are not shot the way you seem to be assuming they are shot. First the music is recorded properly in an acoustically good environment WITH THE CAMERAS OFF! Then the music is played back over the speakers while the musicians pretend to be playing it while the cameras are rolling. It's all fake. What you see on the actual video is NOT what you hear (except in very cheap, very low quality videos that won't go anywhere).

Feedback has been an issue when i am playing an instrument, singing into the microphone and not tracking on headphones.

.... which is why it is never done that way on professional music videos! Because it CANNOT be done successful that way.

I wanted to track on the speakers instead of headphones because sometimes because they are uncomfortable and sometimes they take away from the shot for the video.

Then do it the way the pros do it: first record properly with headphones and no speakers, so you can get good quality recordings, then play that back while you pretend to play and sing with the camera actually running. Or rather, you actually do play and sing, but you don't record that: it's just for show.

Yes i think my method has been at least a big part of the problem.

But i have seen people performing with loop pedals that dont seem to be wearing headphones. Is this just because a) they are in large and acoustically friendly rooms and/or b) they may have been wearing IEM’s that i didn’t see?

Both are possible, or it is most likely that they are just pretending to play along to the actual track that has already been recorded, and they are in fact merely acting for the cameras.

I typically record both vocals and piano/guitar at the same time. I know a lot of musicians will record these separately and use vocal booths for the vocal recordings. Is it possible to record both vocals and an instrument at the same time with speakers? Or only with headphones/ IEMs?

Professional recordings are seldom done like that these days. It is far more common for the song to be laid down one instrument at a time, or maybe a couple at once. I have recorded entire albums where the musicians never even met each other, and certainly never played at the same time in the same room. First a couple of musicians (often the drummer, lead instrument and leaf vocalist) lay down a reference track, and frequently the drummer is using a "click track" or metronome to stay perfectly in time. Then the actual final instrument tracks are laid down one by one, using that original only as a reference, including a new drum track, and new lead instrument track, a new lead vocal track. Then when all the tracking is done by the tracking engineer, the song is mixed by the mix engineer, and sent off to the mastering engineer. When it comes back from mastering, it is then used to record the music video, with the musicians acting along to it. That's a very common way of doing it these days. Some groups still do record all together, but then there are often multiple takes of each part of the song, and the best takes of each part are spliced together in the mix.

I meant to play and live monitor the speakers through the instruments. For example, when i play synths on my keyboard hearing them live and singing (though this might not be possible based on the other stuff we’ve discussed).

Here too, you would normally wear headphone to hear the keyboard while recording your vocals. If you are really good at playing and singing at the same time, then you could do it that way, but many musicians still re-record the vocals while they are NOT playing (just listening on headphones) so they can concentrate 100% on the singing part, for maximum quality.

Would using PA/stage monitors help to make this kind of live playing setup while in my studio? Or is this kind of live playing only possible when in a suitable live environment?

Live recording is a very different thing from what you are doing. In a live venue, the stage is huge, each instrument is tracked separately, and the mics are carefully positioned to avoid the types of issues you describe. Even then, a lot of what you see as "live shows" by big-name performers isn't "live" at all! It's partly live, but mostly playback and lip-syncing. Don't believe everything you see on TV, especially in show business. "Live" often isn't "live" at all (although sometimes it is).

I’ve read a lot of good reviews about the JBL 305s and they cost 300. Any particular reason why you dont think these be be good for my purposes?

They use 5" low frequency drivers! Enough said. They are just not up to the job of serious studio monitoring, especially if you need to get down to low frequencies, such as drums, bass, keyboards, growling electric guitars, etc. Studio reference monitors are usually at least 7", at the absolute minimum, and 8" drivers are pretty much the norm for good quality entry-level monitors these days. 5" just can't do the job. Listening to a 5" monitor and and a high quality 8" monitor is the difference between raw hamburger meat and exquisitely prepared premium fillet steak...

- Stuart -