John Sayers' Recording Studio Design Forum Archive

First off, hello for the UK!

I've found myself on this forum because I've been watching Glenn Fricker's channel on Youtube for quite a while now and have been picking up awesome tips on recording (If you're about, cheers Glenn!). He's mentioned this forum a load of times and I thought I'd come over here to check it out. There's so much great, helpful information on here that I couldn't refuse posting about something I could use a little help on. I've started of with a little background information.

In December (hopefully), My girfriend and I will be moving into a shiny new 2nd floor flat. So naturally, as soon as I knew we had a 2nd bedroom, I claimed it as my own! Luckily, she's understanding and supportive about my passion for music and was kind of expecting it anyway. I could have that room on the condition that there be some kind of pull-out bed in there for relatives to stay on. I did try the whole "what about the sofa" routine, but I'm afraid that didn't fly! And, realistically, I agree that we need to have somewhere for people to stay.

So, I have a room! It's a little bit of an awkward shape and fairly small too. This obviously doesn't help much in regards of room acoustics (room height is 2385mm):



Also, I've realised that to fit a desk, electric drum kit (purely for practice!) and the pull-out bed in the room, my desk needs to slot into the corner space, as below.





This isn't ideal, but to keep the room functional as both a 2nd bedroom and a mixing room it's a must. I'll be honest, I'm a complete noob when it comes to room acoustics and also an amateur when it comes to mixing. First and foremost I am a drummer, but have become a multi-instrumentalist over time. Hence the electric kit for practice purposes (I wish I could have my acoustic kit in here...). However, I have been doing a bit of reading on what is needed for a good or half decent control room/mixing environment.

As far as I understand, for this room it would be best to have the studio monitors close to the wall to push the null zone to a higher frequency, and then to put a couple of broadband panels behind the monitors to absorb reflections. Also, doing this in conjunction with tweaking the room correction switch on the back of my monitors (Yamaha HS5's) should make a difference? Then, adding bass traps in the corners of the room should mean that the room will improved/deadened. After this, adding broadband panels to corner spaces would further deaden the room.

Is this correct, or have I been woefully mis-informed?

Anyway, I will stop waffling on and I look forward to your replies.

Thanks very much,
Joe

EDIT: I have just remembered to put my location in my user profile. Apologies for not doing this before posting!

Is this forum a bit quiet, or have I missed some information out that is needed? Just wondering!

Bumpity Bump....

Hi Joe, and welcome to the forum!

I'm sorry it took a while for you to get an answer, but things are rather hectic on the forum lately, and it seems like there's only one moderator replying right now: Yours Truly!

So, I have a room! It's a little bit of an awkward shape and fairly small too. This obviously doesn't help much in regards of room acoustics (room height is 2385mm):

Well, it is what it is! And it sure is one heck of a lot better than no room at all! So all that's left to do is to make the most of a not-so-good room.

Also, I've realised that to fit a desk, electric drum kit (purely for practice!) and the pull-out bed in the room, my desk needs to slot into the corner space, as below.

Yes-but-no! Yes you need to fit in the pull-out bed, but no you can't set up your mixing area like that. The reason is simple, and critical: The reasons is "symmetry". When mixing, you absolutely, totally, and unequivocally must be in a symmetrical acoustic environment, such that your left ear hears the same acoustic response as your right ear. If not, you wont be able to mix. Or rather, you'll be able to mix so that your songs sound great in that room... but when played anywhere else, the will sound wrong. They will sound "skewed", because subconsciously you'll be compensating for the acoustically "skew" room in your mixes, so they just won't sound good elsewhere.

So you need to find a location for your desk that is in the middle of a flat wall, then find a location for the fold-out bed that fits around the desk somehow.

I'd suggest putting your desk up against the right wall, and putting the bed under the window. That's the only possible layout that makes sense both acoustically and practically.

I'll be honest, I'm a complete noob when it comes to room acoustics and also an amateur when it comes to mixing.

No problem! You came to the best place on the internet to find out how to do this right, so you are pretty darn smart, in my book!

However, I have been doing a bit of reading on what is needed for a good or half decent control room/mixing environment.

Your room isn't terrible, but it also ain't fantastic by any means. If it is carefully laid out (see above explanation...), and carefully treated, it can be reasonably good. Certainly good enough to learn how to mix well, and make good demo tracks, to show of your musical skills.

As far as I understand, for this room it would be best to have the studio monitors close to the wall to push the null zone to a higher frequency,

Right!

and then to put a couple of broadband panels behind the monitors to absorb reflections.

right again! It's not really reflections that those specific panels are there for, but rather to put a damper on the nasty edge-diffraction, comb filtering, and low frequency stuff coming of the back of the speaker. In a certain sense, all of those are in fact "reflections", but not in the same sense that the word is normally used. Semantics. Splitting hairs. Yep. I'm good at that!

Also, doing this in conjunction with tweaking the room correction switch on the back of my monitors (Yamaha HS5's) should make a difference?

Right, to a certain extent. What manufacturers don't tell is that what they call "room correction" actually doesn't correct the room at all! (semantics, split hairs....) It's a nice name, but all it does is change the frequency response of the speakers slightly to compensate partially, for some of the issues associated with the interaction between the room and the speaker.... And they also don't tell that those controls will only be fully effective if the room has already been correctly treated acoustically.! They won't do a lot to "fix" a room that is acoustically bad...

Then, adding bass traps in the corners of the room should mean that the room will improved/deadened.

Yes-no! Yes you need to have bass traps, most certainly, and yes they will improve the low frequency response of the room, but they should not make the room dead. You don't want a "dead" room anyway! Dead rooms are not pleasant to be in, and they aren't that easy to mix in either. The room should be "neutral". That's the goal. It should not be dead, and it should not be live. It should be just right. Bass traps do indeed make the room dead, if they are not built correctly. There needs to be a balance in the design, so that the bass trap will damp the hell out of the low frequencies, while not touching the highs at all.

After this, adding broadband panels to corner spaces would further deaden the room.

No and no. The bass traps go in the corners, not the broadband panels. Bass traps go in corners for a reason: all room modes terminate in corners, so by treating the corners you are guaranteed to hit them most effectively. Broadband panels go on the first reflection points, and possible at other locations where they might be needed. but not on the corners. Corners are pure bass trap territory.

And once again, you don't want a dead room. You want a neutral room. The decay times should by in accordance with the room size, and it should be smooth and even across the spectrum, not favoring any specific frequency. Here's a link to a thread that shows a bunch of graphs for a control room, with short explanations about what they mean: http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewt ... =2&t=20471 .

Is this correct, or have I been woefully mis-informed?

Pretty close, with some exceptions!

Bumpity Bump....

Treating and tuning a room can, indeed, be a very bumpy road!



- Stuart -

Soundman2020 wrote:Hi Joe, and welcome to the forum!
I'm sorry it took a while for you to get an answer, but things are rather hectic on the forum lately, and it seems like there's only one moderator replying right now: Yours Truly!

Hi Stuart, thanks very much for the warm welcome!

No need for apologies, I don't mind waiting for the excellent information! Plus, I'm in no rush at the moment, the finishing date has been moved to late Jan 2017.

Well, it is what it is! And it sure is one heck of a lot better than no room at all! So all that's left to do is to make the most of a not-so-good room.

It is indeed! I am very happy that I have a room to compose, learn and mix in. Very exciting!

Yes-but-no! Yes you need to fit in the pull-out bed, but no you can't set up your mixing area like that. The reason is simple, and critical: The reasons is "symmetry". When mixing, you absolutely, totally, and unequivocally must be in a symmetrical acoustic environment, such that your left ear hears the same acoustic response as your right ear. If not, you wont be able to mix. Or rather, you'll be able to mix so that your songs sound great in that room... but when played anywhere else, the will sound wrong. They will sound "skewed", because subconsciously you'll be compensating for the acoustically "skew" room in your mixes, so they just won't sound good elsewhere.

So you need to find a location for your desk that is in the middle of a flat wall, then find a location for the fold-out bed that fits around the desk somehow.

I'd suggest putting your desk up against the right wall, and putting the bed under the window. That's the only possible layout that makes sense both acoustically and practically.

First off, thanks for being brutally honest about it not working in that space, I appreciate that very much. This all makes a lot of sense. I have tinkered with the room layout and also added in a few other bits of furniture, so it's as it would need to be in reality:







Is this better? Or would it be better to move the small bookcase and/or get a bigger desk (more stereo spread)?

No problem! You came to the best place on the internet to find out how to do this right, so you are pretty darn smart, in my book!

Ha! Why thank you! I have to thank Glen from SMG for point me in the right direction though! This forum definitely has some awesome information about a lot of different subjects. I could probably sit on here for hours just reading content!

Your room isn't terrible, but it also ain't fantastic by any means. If it is carefully laid out (see above explanation...), and carefully treated, it can be reasonably good. Certainly good enough to learn how to mix well, and make good demo tracks, to show of your musical skills.

That sounds perfect to me. Learning, composing and recording demos is exactly what I need to do!

and then to put a couple of broadband panels behind the monitors to absorb reflections.

right again! It's not really reflections that those specific panels are there for, but rather to put a damper on the nasty edge-diffraction, comb filtering, and low frequency stuff coming of the back of the speaker. In a certain sense, all of those are in fact "reflections", but not in the same sense that the word is normally used. Semantics. Splitting hairs. Yep. I'm good at that!

I would much rather you split hairs (metaphorically of course...!), everyone learns more, and more quickly too. I'll have a read about these potential problems and learn how they differ. I have come across them before, but better the devil you know!

Also, doing this in conjunction with tweaking the room correction switch on the back of my monitors (Yamaha HS5's) should make a difference?

Right, to a certain extent. What manufacturers don't tell is that what they call "room correction" actually doesn't correct the room at all! (semantics, split hairs....) It's a nice name, but all it does is change the frequency response of the speakers slightly to compensate partially, for some of the issues associated with the interaction between the room and the speaker.... And they also don't tell that those controls will only be fully effective if the room has already been correctly treated acoustically.! They won't do a lot to "fix" a room that is acoustically bad...

Cheeky! I had wondered how that kind of control could make a difference in an untreated room. It makes a lot of sense that these are just used as a way to fine tune what your hearing, after the room has been treated appropriately.

Then, adding bass traps in the corners of the room should mean that the room will improved/deadened.

Yes-no! Yes you need to have bass traps, most certainly, and yes they will improve the low frequency response of the room, but they should not make the room dead. You don't want a "dead" room anyway! Dead rooms are not pleasant to be in, and they aren't that easy to mix in either. The room should be "neutral". That's the goal. It should not be dead, and it should not be live. It should be just right. Bass traps do indeed make the room dead, if they are not built correctly. There needs to be a balance in the design, so that the bass trap will damp the hell out of the low frequencies, while not touching the highs at all.

After this, adding broadband panels to corner spaces would further deaden the room.

No and no. The bass traps go in the corners, not the broadband panels. Bass traps go in corners for a reason: all room modes terminate in corners, so by treating the corners you are guaranteed to hit them most effectively. Broadband panels go on the first reflection points, and possible at other locations where they might be needed. but not on the corners. Corners are pure bass trap territory.

And once again, you don't want a dead room. You want a neutral room. The decay times should by in accordance with the room size, and it should be smooth and even across the spectrum, not favoring any specific frequency. Here's a link to a thread that shows a bunch of graphs for a control room, with short explanations about what they mean: http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewt ... =2&t=20471 .

Thanks very much for clarifying all of this, it has been very helpful indeed. It makes perfect sense to 'neutralise' the room. Much the same you people wanting certain equipment to be 'transparent' in a signal chain. This has explained the reason for acoustic treatment perfectly! Just had a bit of an epiphany

Is this correct, or have I been woefully mis-informed?

Pretty close, with some exceptions!

Bumpity Bump....

Treating and tuning a room can, indeed, be a very bumpy road!



- Stuart -

All in all, I didn't do too badly, for a drummer!

What d'you think of the re-arranged model?

Thanks again,
Joe

I've had a bit of a go myself... but I cant help thinking that I really dont know what I'm doing!

I've had a bit of a go myself... but I cant help thinking that I really dont know what I'm doing!

It's looking reasonably decent, actually! For that tiny space, there¿s probably not many otehr options.

The only additional thing I'd suggest is getting your speakers off the desk (always a bad idea) and onto stands behind the desk. Make the stands massive (very heavy).

Apart from that, you seem to be on the right track.

Set it up like that, run a test with REW and post the results.


- Stuart -

Soundman2020 wrote:

I've had a bit of a go myself... but I cant help thinking that I really dont know what I'm doing!

It's looking reasonably decent, actually! For that tiny space, there's probably not many other options.

The only additional thing I'd suggest is getting your speakers off the desk (always a bad idea) and onto stands behind the desk. Make the stands massive (very heavy).

Apart from that, you seem to be on the right track.

Set it up like that, run a test with REW and post the results.


- Stuart -

Hi Stuart,

First of all, thanks very much for the reply. I was genuinely excited to read your reply to this (not sure if that's sad or not!).

Awesome! I'm quite surprised that I haven't done a bad job

In regards to speaker stands; I've tried fitting them in behind the desk but I cant seem to get them to fit / I wouldn't be in an equilateral triangle with the monitors. However, I do have a pair of IsoAcoustics ISO-L8R130 which are brilliant at separating the monitors from the desk. Also, since posting the last image I have changed the model slightly. The desk is now bigger, allowing for better positioning of the monitors, and I have added two smaller broadband traps to the walls. The broadband traps are mounted at different points to break up parallel surfaces. Is this a good idea?:

I wouldn't be in an equilateral triangle with the monitors.

Who says you need an equilateral triangle?

Answer: you don't!

Problem: There's a lot of copies of the exact same famous "equilateral triangle" diagram out there, some even in text books.... and they are all wrong! Take a close look at those diagrams. What do they show? The show the perfect setup for all people who have had their ears surgically transplanted onto their eyeballs! Yup. Look closely.

Everyone knows that you are supposed to have your ears "on-axis" to the speakers, because the axis is where the speaker produces it's cleanest, smoothest, best sound. But those diagrams show the axis hitting the eyes, not the ears! Which means that the ears are off-axis, and therefore NOT in the correct location (unless you really do have ears in your eyes...)

For normal people with their ears sticking way out on the sides of their heads, that diagram is just plain wrong. The speakers need to be at a smaller angle, such that the axes hit your ears. In fact, because of the way our heads and ears work, and because of the psycho-acoustic effects, it turns out that the axes need to be a bit further out, grazing just past your ears, not right at them. The axes should intersect at a point about 12" to 18" behind your head.

But that means the speakers won't be angled at 30° !!!

Yup. It sure does. That's also a myth. The angle can be pretty much anything from about 25° to about 45°. The only effect is that the sweet spot gets broader or narrower: No big deal, as long as you are aware of it.

So set up your speakers and mix position at the correct locations in the room, regardless of what the actual angle is. Forget the diagrams: set up your geometry in a manner that makes sense, logically and psycho-acoustically.

I do have a pair of IsoAcoustics ISO-L8R130 which are brilliant at separating the monitors from the desk.

The problem is not so much decoupling from the desk (although that's important too). The biggest problem is reflections off the desk surface, right into your ears. Any reflection that arrives at your ear within 20ms or less of the direct sound is a big problem. It messes up your perception of the direction that the sound came from, and also the perception of the frequency spectrum of that sound. Your ears and brain use the "clues" from slightly delayed reflections to determine directionality, and if your brain thinks that the sound came from a different direction (because of the delayed reflection), then it automatically tells you that the frequency spectrum was different too. It trades off one against the other. This is part of the "psycho-acoustics" of the way we perceive sound, rather than the acoustics of how the sound really is.

Speakers on the desk is a certain way to mess up your perception of directions and frequencies. Get them off the desk, on stands behind the desk, and make the desk smaller. As small as you possibly can, to minimize reflections.

The broadband traps are mounted at different points to break up parallel surfaces. Is this a good idea?:

Having panels on the side walls is a good idea... but having them arranged asymmetrical is a bad idea. That messes up your stereo imaging. The should be in the same location on each wall. In the rear half of the room, there's no problem (behind your head). You don't need to be quite so symmetrical back there. But in the front half symmetry is very important.

- Stuart -

Soundman2020 wrote:

I wouldn't be in an equilateral triangle with the monitors.

Who says you need an equilateral triangle?

Answer: you don't!

Problem: There's a lot of copies of the exact same famous "equilateral triangle" diagram out there, some even in text books.... and they are all wrong! Take a close look at those diagrams. What do they show? The show the perfect setup for all people who have had their ears surgically transplanted onto their eyeballs! Yup. Look closely.

Everyone knows that you are supposed to have your ears "on-axis" to the speakers, because the axis is where the speaker produces it's cleanest, smoothest, best sound. But those diagrams show the axis hitting the eyes, not the ears! Which means that the ears are off-axis, and therefore NOT in the correct location (unless you really do have ears in your eyes...)

For normal people with their ears sticking way out on the sides of their heads, that diagram is just plain wrong. The speakers need to be at a smaller angle, such that the axes hit your ears. In fact, because of the way our heads and ears work, and because of the psycho-acoustic effects, it turns out that the axes need to be a bit further out, grazing just past your ears, not right at them. The axes should intersect at a point about 12" to 18" behind your head.

But that means the speakers won't be angled at 30° !!!

Yup. It sure does. That's also a myth. The angle can be pretty much anything from about 25° to about 45°. The only effect is that the sweet spot gets broader or narrower: No big deal, as long as you are aware of it.

So set up your speakers and mix position at the correct locations in the room, regardless of what the actual angle is. Forget the diagrams: set up your geometry in a manner that makes sense, logically and psycho-acoustically.

I do have a pair of IsoAcoustics ISO-L8R130 which are brilliant at separating the monitors from the desk.

The problem is not so much decoupling from the desk (although that's important too). The biggest problem is reflections off the desk surface, right into your ears. Any reflection that arrives at your ear within 20ms or less of the direct sound is a big problem. It messes up your perception of the direction that the sound came from, and also the perception of the frequency spectrum of that sound. Your ears and brain use the "clues" from slightly delayed reflections to determine directionality, and if your brain thinks that the sound came from a different direction (because of the delayed reflection), then it automatically tells you that the frequency spectrum was different too. It trades off one against the other. This is part of the "psycho-acoustics" of the way we perceive sound, rather than the acoustics of how the sound really is.

Speakers on the desk is a certain way to mess up your perception of directions and frequencies. Get them off the desk, on stands behind the desk, and make the desk smaller. As small as you possibly can, to minimize reflections.

The broadband traps are mounted at different points to break up parallel surfaces. Is this a good idea?:

Having panels on the side walls is a good idea... but having the asymmetrical is a bad idea. That messes up your stereo imaging. The should be in the same location on each wall. In the rear half of the room, there's no problem (behind your head). You don't need to be quite so symmetrical back there. But in the front half symmetry is very important.

- Stuart -

Thank you very much for correcting me! Differing opinions from the internet have lead me to follow incorrect information, until now!

I have changed around everything based upon what you've said. I've taken out those two extra broadband traps because I don't know if I'm going to need them as of yet.

I have also managed to move it around so I can fit in the monitor stands. They are at 43°, pointing 6 - 8 inches behind where my head would be. Is that a good place to have them?



Thanks very much for all your time in replying, it's really helpful.

Joe

I've taken out those two extra broadband traps because I don't know if I'm going to need them as of yet.

Yes you are! Put them back, but symmetrically: same place on both sides of the room. They are at your first reflection points, so you WILL need them.

Apart from that, it looks good!

They are at 43°, pointing 6 - 8 inches behind where my head would be. Is that a good place to have them?

It's not ideal, but much better than the way you had it originally! And in your small room, that's probably about as good as you can get it.
Can you raise the speakers just a little, so they clear the edge of the table? If so, then you could bring them slightly closer together and narrow that angle just a bit. 45° is the limit, and 43° is very close to that. The good thing about that is that you will have a very wide sound-stage, and good stereo image. The downside is that your sweet spot is very narrow: moving your head just a bit to the left or right takes you out of the sweet spot, and you lose the stereo image, phantom center, and sound stage. So if you can reduce the angle a bit more by raising the speakers to clear the table, that would be great... as long as you only need to raise them an inch or so! Not more than that.

Thanks very much for all your time in replying, it's really helpful.

- Stuart -