Page 1 of 1

New Building - early design stage - any thoughts?

Posted: Wed Sep 02, 2015 8:26 am
by carolyn
We (my husband and I) are building an "out building" (not an outhouse) on our property in Nemo, Tx. We are at the preliminary drawing stage. We divorced our initial acoustic designer, and are working with an architect. We will be hiring a consulting acoustic designer but we're not behind schedule, so I'm seeking input on the general design from a few sources, including y'all.

This building will be in the middle of 16 acres of prairie deep in the heart of Texas. But it's about 25 yards from the main house... where I am when my husband is making lots of noise. And we're about 1/3 mile from a 2 lane road, which around here is sort of a big road. There is no subway under Nemo Texas, and while in certain conditions we might see planes overhead landing at Dallas airport, that's about 60 miles away so we're not quite on the final approach. We do have lots of crickets, and nearby cows.

The studio will be used by my husband who records one-man demos using a drum machine or Acid loops for his percussion, and plays most of his parts via guitar modeling devices such as Roland’s VG-88 and VG-99, and synthesizers. The acoustics of the room are important for recording acoustic guitar, small electric guitar amps, live percussion, live vocals, and mixing down the audio. He also intends to use the control room to record podcast interviews for his day job. He would like to be able to use the studio as well to record another guitarist or singer, but those sessions would likely be pretty rare. My husband would like to be able to wail on his guitar and sing loudly without me hearing (we don't care about the cows, they can move).

Below is the whole building and then a closer up picture of the music part. Since the dimensions got blurred the control room about 19 feet long; 13 1/2 feet across on the narrow end and 20 feet long on the wider end. We're thinking the ceiling will be about 12feet. There is no second floor. the Booth is 11X8.5. The booth is not expected to hold more than a vocalist and 1 guitarist at most.

We're not looking for professional quality - just not worrying about disturbing me or other people in the main house; and reasonable acoustics for a serious hobbyist.

I'm not including a budget at this point because we really only want to know if this is a reasonable enough starting point to have the architect start doing a 3-d renderings and putting in some details in the non-music part.

Image
________________
Image

My questions are:
1) do you see any immediate red flags with this preliminary drawing
2) do you have any suggestions to make this better.

Re: New Building - early design stage - any thoughts?

Posted: Wed Sep 02, 2015 4:39 pm
by stevev
hey Carloyn and welcome :D
carolyn wrote:1) do you see any immediate red flags with this preliminary drawing
First up, whilst having windows that are looking out to the view are great, they're difficult and expensive to get high levels of isolation with. Not that it's not possible, just expensive. Whilst the noise you guys will be making isn't an issue for the outside world, the outside world making noise could be an issue for you once you set up mics and start getting wind, rain, bird and possibly cow noise on your tracks.

Also, given that space doesn't appear to be an issue, I'd be inclined to extend the size of the booth to the front wall of the control room. For a couple of reasons.

one, a small room sounds like a small room and has to have a LOT of treatment to make it not sound small. Actually, to be honest, i'd also lose the equipment storgae room unless you have a significant amount of gear to store. Would there be room in the two car garage to put a couple of cupboards in for gear storage if it's that necessary?


two, it would allow you to move the access door for the booth a little further along the wall and allow you to get some decent bass trapping in the back left hand corner and on the back wall of the CR. On that note, i'd also move the access door for the CR/foyer to the middle of the rear wall of the CR. Again, to give you room to put corner bass trapping in the right hand rear corner. It also means you wouldn't have to go through the foyer for the guest room to get into the control room, which means your guests would have a completely seperate space, and you also wouldn't have to go through three doors every time you wanted to get in the CR.

Other than that I think you've got the right idea to start with and it looks like you'll have a nice little unit there once you're done 8)

All the best,

Steve

Re: New Building - early design stage - any thoughts?

Posted: Thu Sep 03, 2015 1:39 am
by carolyn
stevev wrote:First up, whilst having windows that are looking out to the view are great, they're difficult and expensive to get high levels of isolation with. Not that it's not possible, just expensive. Whilst the noise you guys will be making isn't an issue for the outside world, the outside world making noise could be an issue for you once you set up mics and start getting wind, rain, bird and possibly cow noise on your tracks.
That's something we were struggling with. And we may opt for two narrow windows, just so the hubster can see the outside world a little with heavy shades or curtains for when he is recording or mixing. But thank you, we'll see what we can do about that.
stevev wrote:Also, given that space doesn't appear to be an issue, I'd be inclined to extend the size of the booth to the front wall of the control room. For a couple of reasons.
Space, not a problem. Money, a problem. Every square foot of foundation ads money. As you signatures says... well it's a trade off.
stevev wrote:one, a small room sounds like a small room and has to have a LOT of treatment to make it not sound small. Actually, to be honest, i'd also lose the equipment storgae room unless you have a significant amount of gear to store. Would there be room in the two car garage to put a couple of cupboards in for gear storage if it's that necessary?
To be honest the equipment room was sort of "what the heck do we do with this space" and I had wanted more storage for household stuff so I thought... storage. But again, thanks that gives us some ideas to work with.

And we had already decided to move the doors last night when we got the "put the doors at least 2 feet from the corners so you can put in a bass trap" message. But your suggestions are more specific for us, so they are more helpful.

Thanks so much.

Re: New Building - early design stage - any thoughts?

Posted: Thu Sep 03, 2015 11:01 am
by stevev
carolyn wrote:That's something we were struggling with. And we may opt for two narrow windows, just so the hubster can see the outside world a little with heavy shades or curtains for when he is recording or mixing.
Heavy curtains will stop the high end internal reflections a bit, but for the most part won't do a lot for you. They also won't do anything to stop external noise from coming in through the windows.

Just to give you a quick rundown....you'll need to achieve the same surface density with your windows as you have with whatever material you're using for the walls internally and externally. For eg, glass is around three times denser than plasterboard, so if you've got two layers of 16mm plaster board on the iner leaf, you'll need an 11mm thick piece of glass to keep your isolation. Per square meter, 11mm glass is pretty expensive :shock: If the outside of the building is brick, then your outer leaf of glass is going to need to match the surface density of brick. I'd have to look up the density's but you'll need more than 11mm that's for sure. That's where windows get pretty expensive, the glass itself.

The other concern with windows is that they have to seal air-tight to be of any use regarding isolation. Reasonably doable for permenantly shut windows......very tricky for opening windows.
carolyn wrote:Space, not a problem. Money, a problem. Every square foot of foundation ads money.
Have you got a rough idea of what your budget is? If all this work is getting contracted out then you're definitely in the hundreds of thousands. On that scale, I'd still be extending the booth to get a much more useable space for what would amount to a very small increase in your construction costs.


all the best,

Steve

Re: New Building - early design stage - any thoughts?

Posted: Thu Sep 03, 2015 12:27 pm
by carolyn
stevev wrote: Heavy curtains will stop the high end internal reflections a bit, but for the most part won't do a lot for you. They also won't do anything to stop external noise from coming in through the windows.

Just to give you a quick rundown....you'll need to achieve the same surface density with your windows as you have with whatever material you're using for the walls internally and externally. For eg, glass is around three times denser than plasterboard, so if you've got two layers of 16mm plaster board on the iner leaf, you'll need an 11mm thick piece of glass to keep your isolation. Per square meter, 11mm glass is pretty expensive :shock: If the outside of the building is brick, then your outer leaf of glass is going to need to match the surface density of brick. I'd have to look up the density's but you'll need more than 11mm that's for sure. That's where windows get pretty expensive, the glass itself.

The other concern with windows is that they have to seal air-tight to be of any use regarding isolation. Reasonably doable for permenantly shut windows......very tricky for opening windows.
The windows are looking like more trouble than they are worth.
stevev wrote:Have you got a rough idea of what your budget is? If all this work is getting contracted out then you're definitely in the hundreds of thousands. On that scale, I'd still be extending the booth to get a much more useable space for what would amount to a very small increase in your construction costs.
We're at about $200,000 (not including after-construction treatments) which is a little over budget. So while it might be a small increase we already have pushed the budget.

But more importantly, right now my husband does all his playing and recording in a space of about 84 square ft. It's not a closed room - the room is bigger, but the area where he does his music is surrounded by other furniture so he really does do it all in 84 sq ft. and he doesn't feel like the space is his problem. His problems are: poor acoustic quality; outside noise; having to clean up his stuff when we have company; and tripping over cables.

But we talked about your earlier post at length and will go over this one too and reconsider, or rearrange. I can't tell you how much we appreciate the time and effort you've given us.

Re: New Building - early design stage - any thoughts?

Posted: Fri Sep 04, 2015 3:08 am
by Soundman2020
Hi there Carolyn, and welcome to the forum! :)

I see you are already in good hands with Steve, but I wanted to add some additional comments to what he already said.
We divorced our initial acoustic designer,
Would you mind mentioning why? Not all the gritty details, of course; just the general reasons.
and are working with an architect.
You will need an architect, for sure, to walk you through all the local red tape, and prepare the drawings and other documents that you will need in order to get your permits, authorizations and inspections. But an architect is not the right person to do the actual design for a studio, any more than an electrician is the right guy to design your plumbing... Unless your architect has been fully trained in acoustics (not just the tiny smattering of half a dozen hours of basic acoustics that most architects seem to get), and has a track record of designing successful studios, then he's probably not the right person. Looking at the current plans confirms that. You should have a studio designer working with your architect to do this. Contact John himself, or one of the other designers here on the forum about that.
And we're about 1/3 mile from a 2 lane road, which around here is sort of a big road.
Is that road a problem? Does it carry heavy traffic, such as trucks, buses, farm equipment, etc? Can you hear the traffic at the location where you plan to build the studio?
We do have lots of crickets, and nearby cows.
What about other sounds of nature? Wind, rain, hail, thunder, etc.? What about other rural sounds nearby? There's a lot of sounds outside that can trash your husband's "best recording I ever did" if they get into his mics inside the studio.
The studio will be used by my husband who records one-man demos using a drum machine or Acid loops for his percussion, and plays most of his parts via guitar modeling devices such as Roland’s VG-88 and VG-99, and synthesizers.
So there will be no acoustic drums or other loud instruments? If he works mostly with electronic sources, then your isolation needs will be much lower than if he wants to record live acoustic drums, or even worse, a full rock band.
The acoustics of the room are important for recording acoustic guitar, small electric guitar amps, live percussion, live vocals, and mixing down the audio.
When you say "room" here, are you referring to the control room, or to the isolation booth? There's a set of very specific acoustic parameters that a quality control room should meet, but those aren't necessarily what you need for recording acoustic guitar, vocals, guitar amps, and definitely not live percussion. That's two different acoustic environments. There are ways of dealing with that (such as having variable acoustic devices in the room, so you can change the acoustic response as needed for different situations), but that adds cost and complexity.
Below is the whole building and then a closer up picture of the music part.
There are several ways that could be improved. One of those is to waste less space by not splaying the side walls for the rear half of the control room: it is not necessary acoustically, and tends to waste space in adjacent rooms. There are also issues with your isolation plan, and the booth needs to be quite a bit bigger if you want to track live percussion or some genres of acoustic guitar in there.
We're not looking for professional quality - just not worrying about disturbing me or other people in the main house; and reasonable acoustics for a serious hobbyist.
Fair enough, but "serious hobbyist" isn't far short of "professional", in terms of the acoustic response needed in the control room. And if you are planning to spend all of that money to get to what you are showing in the drawings so far, then spending the little bit extra you'd need to go from "merely good hobby studio" to "really great almost-pro studio" doesn't seem to be a huge leap. You also say that right now the plan is that this will be a one-man studio, but from experience I'd bet good money that once your husband's buddies see the place, they'll be begging him to record them too... It won't be long before the place has musicians arriving and leaving regularly, either for their own recordings, are just helping to add extra stuff to what your husband is doing himself. Musicians and studios are like moths and candles....
I'm not including a budget at this point because we really only want to know if this is a reasonable enough starting point to have the architect start doing a 3-d renderings and putting in some details in the non-music part.
It is certainly a reasonably good starting point, but there's a LOT wrong with it too, that put it in the class of "not even merely good hobby studio". This is why I mentioned at the top that you shouldn't be letting your architect do this: you are paying him for a service that he doesn't know much about, as is evident from what he has given you so far. But this is not his fault!!!! I have no doubt he's a great architect, but you are asking him to do something that is not in his realm of expertise. I'm sure he did his best with that layout, but it is an ARCHITECTURAL layout, not an ACOUSTIC layout. It looks nice, but it isn't functional as a studio, because he doesn't understand studios, since it isn't his job to understand studios. His job is to understand houses, and I'm betting he does that really well, but studios are a very different thing.

Your current design is based on a number of common mistakes, myths and misconceptions about acoustics, and a serious designer with strong acoustic knowledge would not have done it like that. As Steve already pointed out, there are several issues that need dealing with (windows, doors, booth size, CR acoustics, etc.). Architects have a major job to do in getting the studio built, but designing for acoustics is not part of it. In the exact same sense, a studio designer has no business designing your kitchen or bedroom, nor the plumbing for your bathroom, so too the architect has no business designing acoustic spaces. Getting him to do a 3D rendering would be a wast of his time and your money.
1) do you see any immediate red flags with this preliminary drawing
Several yes. First, the isolation plan won't be isolating too well: there's no MSM system there (or only a partial one). Second, the control room acoustics won't be good. Part of control room design is making sure that the "modal response" of the room is decent, with the room modes (standing wave patterns for various frequencies in the low end of the spectrum) being spread as evenly and smoothly as possible. Yours aren't. Third, the isolation booth is too small to be useful for anything but basic voice-overs and perhaps tracking electric guitar cabinets, but certainly not much use for percussion or some types of acoustic guitar. Fourth, there's no direct path from the control room to the iso-booth: right now, your poor husband will be running back and for through the storage room and a whole series of doors when he's trying to set up mics on acoustic instruments: that just isn't practical. There's also no direct path into either room from the outside. Right now, when your husband's buddies come round for a jamming session or to record something, they will have to drag their instruments, equipment, and accessories out of their cars, through the foyer, through the sound lock, through the control room, through the storage room, and finally into the iso booth, going through numerous doors and a four 90° turns... I'd hazard a guess here, and suggest that your architect has never had to do that while lugging a bass cab and along behind him with a six-string bass in a hard-shell case strung over his shoulder (or even worse, dragging in an entire drum kit), but from the design I'd say he never even considered that. A studio designer woudl know that, and design accordingly. Your husband and his buddies won't be thanking your architect for that torturous path! The same happens when someone in the iso booth needs to go to the toilet, or go outside to get some fresh air, or answer the phone, or have a smoke, or get something that he forget in his car... Fifth, there's no provision for HVAC in this diagram, and HVAC is a critical part of studios. (I'm guessing your hubby would like to breath well enough to stay alive while he's having fun pursuing his hobby in there...). Etc. There are other issues too.

A studio designer would never make basic mistakes like the above: it shows that whoever did this layout has never actually worked in a studio, and doesn't understand the dynamics of how recording sessions or even just plain jamming sessions, are done.

2) do you have any suggestions to make this better.
Yes, many! But it would probably be to your advantage to just hire a studio designer to re-do the whole thing, rather than try to fix it yourself (or get your architect to fix it) by asking questions on the forum. We can do it that way if you want! No problem! But you and/or your architect would waste so much time just learning the basics of acoustics (realistically, several months) and then the basics of studio design (realistically, several more months) that it would probably not be worth it. Cheaper, faster, better, more efficient, more effective to just hire someone who specializes in studio design, who will then give that design to your architect, who in turn will incorporate it into the drawings for the rest of the house, fore presentation to the relevant authorities. That's the more common way for studios to be designed. Even though you'd be paying the studio designer to do this, you'd save at least as much as his fee (and probably a lot more) by not making the typical mistakes that first-time studio builders always make.

That's something we were struggling with. And we may opt for two narrow windows, just so the hubster can see the outside world a little with heavy shades or curtains for when he is recording or mixing.
As Steve already mentioned, you CAN have windows if you want them, and they can be big if you want that: many creative people really need natural light and pretty views in order to be inspired and do their best work. So it can happen: but it does cost extra money to do that properly, and it does require proper design. Windows are large, flat, acoustically reflective surfaces, so they need to be placed correctly for acoustic reasons, not just for aesthetic reasons.
Space, not a problem. Money, a problem. Every square foot of foundation ads money.
Which is actually why you need to make sure that every square foot is optimized to the maximum! :) It doesn't make much sense to waste space the way you are doing it right now in the current layout. that space could be put to much better effect, and used more efficiently, as well as more effectively.
To be honest the equipment room was sort of "what the heck do we do with this space" and I had wanted more storage for household stuff so I thought... storage.
I hate to harp on the same point over and over, but an acoustic designer would have made MUCH better use of that space!

The windows are looking like more trouble than they are worth.
I'd check with your hubby on that point! He's an artist, and you guys are building this so that he can express his artistic creative side to the fullest, as a "serious hobby". If he needs natural light and the view to do that properly, then he needs windows! As Steve pointed out, you can have them if your hubby needs them, but they need to be designed to do the job, and they need to be designed by someone who understand the acoustic implications of where they should be located, and how they should be built, not just regarding the aesthetic aspects of "They'd look nice about here, and if they were about this big...". The purpose of these rooms is to be a studio: form follows function. The "function" here is "acoustic space", so the "form" should follow that. Not the other way around.
We're at about $200,000 (not including after-construction treatments) which is a little over budget. So while it might be a small increase we already have pushed the budget.
OK, let me put this bluntly (I seem to have a habit of doing that! :) ) : Steve is making a great suggestion about how you can turn your isolation booth from "Not usable lousy dull honky claustrophobic micro-closet" into "Wow! This is a cool room for both jamming and tracking pretty much anything, and it sounds great too!". That's the basic concept. Small rooms sound lousy, acoustically, and aren't usable for recording, jamming, rehearsing, or anything else. The bigger the room, the better it sounds.

So basically you are planning to spend a lot of money on something that won't be usable for what you want, rather than spending a bit more on making it usable. That's basically what it boils down to. The extra few thousand that it would cost you to get the place done right is the difference between "Ughh! Useless!" and "Fantastic! I really like working in here!"
so he really does do it all in 84 sq ft. and he doesn't feel like the space is his problem. His problems are: poor acoustic quality; outside noise; having to clean up his stuff when we have company; and tripping over cables.
So with the current plan, the only issue he solves is "having to clean up his stuff when we have company": The others are all still there... And a few ore too, that he doesn't have right now.. Once again, I hate to be harsh, but if you are going to spend all that money to exchange one set of major limitations for another set of major limitations that are pretty much the same, then why bother?

My suggestion here would be: hire a studio designer, and give him free reign to take that basic space and your criteria, then turn it into a studio that makes sense. Then give that design to your architect, so he can add it into the drawings and walk it through the procedures that it needs to go through, to actually make it happen.

Once again, sorry to be so blunt, harsh, and "in your face", but I've gone through this exact same conversation enough times with my own customers to know that it is what you NEED to hear, even though it isn't what you WANT to hear.

Hopefully, that's why you came to the forum in the first place: to find out what you NEED to know, not what you want to know. Which sort of leads right back to my very first question: Why did you get rid of your original acoustic designer?

- Stuart -

Re: New Building - early design stage - any thoughts?

Posted: Fri Sep 04, 2015 7:52 am
by carolyn
Soundman2020 wrote:Hi there Carolyn, and welcome to the forum! :)

I see you are already in good hands with Steve
I agree

And to short circuit a lot of your comments, which I really appreciate...

We are hiring (just waiting for the contract to come through) a studio design firm. We started out with our Architect with him saying "have someone tell me the size and shape of the box you need, I'll build around it, they can build inside it.

We got caught up in some lack of communication and delays and took what we'd gotten and tried to move forward with it. As we researched it became apparent that our architect's idea of "tell me the size and shape" was a good idea and exactly how the new designer wants to work and where he will start, specifying the "box."

I feel badly not responding to each of your comments, and in fact about posting at all, because you did spend considerable time in posting to me very thoughtfully. But it was, in part, your post which pushed us over any final reservations we had about any idea of trying to do this with consultants, or worse yet flying solo.

But waiting for responses, and being an online person, my natural instinct was to try to push things forward by asking for help.

So there ya go. I went back to my initial research on who to hire, spent the last two days updating all that information, going back with all we've learned in the last 2 months and suddenly the answer was obvious :yahoo:

So apologies for not responding more - and if a moderator of the group wants to close this post, that's OK, but we have realized the folly of our ways.

Thanks to you and Steve for your efforts, they were not wasted.

Re: New Building - early design stage - any thoughts?

Posted: Fri Sep 04, 2015 6:05 pm
by stevev
carolyn wrote:Thanks to you and Steve for your efforts, they were not wasted.
No problem Carolyn, I'm glad that any input I had helped you get to a solution. Stuart's sage-like advice and attention to detail have seen a lot of people through their builds (me included). It's a pretty tricky business building a studio, so getting proffesional help that you can count on right from the outset is an excellent way to go.

It'd be great if you could still post up some pics of the design and the build as it progresses as it's be interesting to see how it goes stage by stage.

all the best,

Steve