John Sayers' Recording Studio Design Forum Archive

Hello all!

I am in the process of designing my first studio/control room.
It is located in the basement of my house, in the eastern part of Norway.

So far i have been reading up on Rod's book and i have learned a lot.

I did spend a long time considering which room or rooms i could use for a combined studio/control room where the
most important factor was the size of the room, to avoid modal activity. So i finally decided to knock down a wall to end up with this (sketch up link).

So now i need to come up with a room design which makes most use of the limited space that i have.

My goal is to have a combined control room and recording space, where i can (if possible) recording everything from drums, to vocals and guitar amps etc.

My budget is around 10.000 USD converted to NOK which is the currency here, although i do see that prices may vary from country to country.

As i already mentioned, the space is located in the basement. Right above this space is the main bedroom, main hallway and a additional guest-room, which will be used by clients that is visiting the studio. I actually have no neighbours within close range, although i have the highway very close to the house, which i thought would be a huge problem. On the main floor of my house the traffic makes the whole floor vibrate and causes some noise. But down in the basement (probably because the concrete slab and 2 of the walls are surrounded by gravel and dirt) i sense no low frequencies coming from the road. To be certain, i measured if there was any Db change with a sound level meter, which did not pick up any difference in db when measuring low frequencies.

The slab in my basement is a simple concrete slab which is about 10 cm thick. The outer walls (also concrete) is 30 cm thick.

To obtain the highest possible isolation, i am thinking that the double frame wall is the way to go, although it eats up a lot of space.
In the celling if possible, i want to install 3 layers of drywall, then insulation, then rc-1 channel ( well we don't really have that in norway, but a Norwegian version of it) and then two layers of drywall.

Dimensions of the room is provided in the sketch up file, although the room has the area of roughly 22 m2 and the hight of 2.2 meters.

So, my questions will be the following:

Based on the information given, what would be the best design for the walls? Is a rectangular shape something i should avoid?

Does anyone here want to help me with the design in sketch up?

Sorry for any inconvenience with the language, and.. any forum rules i may have violated... I am new to this stuff.


Cheers, Chris.

An update on sketch up

Hmm, the questions keep piling up.

Because i live in Norway, we don't have access to the RC1 Channel, since i am going for a double frame wall it does not apply to the walls.
But for the celling i need some kind of decoupling, so.. what we have on offer up here in the fjords is this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jRtw1vCCsPo
http://www.glava.no/sitefiles/1/dokumen ... _834_1.pdf
I know the language wouldn't make much sense, but just to get a visual demonstration to help you, help me.

So, you basically hang the "Lydbøyler" (as they are called) from your support beams and attach studs to these, which in turn you mount the remaining to layers of drywall to. Then you chalk the edges with a backer rod.

Because i have a beam going straight through the room, i am having some difficulty understanding the technical aspect of getting the wall,
celling and beam to sit in the right place, and still maintaining a decoupled structure.

As you see in the sketch up file, i also have a 2x 2x4 stud supporting the beam.
I need somehow to build the walls around it, without touching the studs or the beam itself.

Anyone have any suggestions?

Cheers, Chris.

I am going to reconstruct this in sketch up later today, stay tuned! =)

So i was able to place the celling and the wall properly, now i need to figure out how to build around the 2x 2x4 stud and the 2x 2x8 beam. Any takers? I'am also wondering how to build the assembly for the future door.. And as i am writing this i suddenly noticed i haven't even mentioned HVAC system i am going to be using.

Since i have no space for a mechanical room i figured the easiest way to get clean and fresh air, is to install a mini-split heat pump through the wall. I know it is not ideal because it generates some noize, but you can always switch it of while recording.

Anyways, sorry for the messy thread, i hope someone catches interest in it eventually, i will keep updating this as i learn more

Back again!

So, i have managed to get so more control in sketch up, and i think i have solved the issue with the celling and the studs supporting the beam, but still more challenges ahead. I need to come up with a solution for the door, and how it will fit with the walls coming down under the beam and how the wall meets the celling.

Hehe, it's kind of funny just writing to myself, but at least i' am moving in the right direction. Still, if anyone out there with the time and interest to help me with the assembly design, please do

The file is now to big to upload to this site, so i'am using dropbox!
https://www.dropbox.com/s/2aghz4qpg9oah ... 3.skp?dl=0

So, i managed to complete the basic assembly for the room. And it's far from symmetrical to say the least.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/ioihckzuch5sl ... e.skp?dl=0

What do you guys think? Should i just make a regular rectangular shaped room instead? I'am guessing the modal activities in this room are horrible.

Cheers, Chris.

thanks for the list guys. it'll really help me.

Hoh, did some readings today of the room as it is.

Played my drums while the missis did some readings throughout the house and outside.
The highest readout i got was 80 db in the rooms directly above, and to be honest i couldn't expect anything less with just a thin layer
of pine floor in the celling.

Reading through Rod's book again, and i just realised that i should add 2 layers of drywall on the outside of the first assembly, how else would i achieve an airtight construction? However, if i do this, how am i supposed to seal up the open areas around the beam? Just with backer rods and caulk? Hehe, and as i now remember: "Two-leaf wall systems are good, two-leaf wall systems are your friend."

Also.. as i see it, the door construction is probably going to be a mess, i am probably going to have to custom order a door to fit the only place it really can.

So yeah, i guess you learn as you go along, and the questions just continue to pop up! At least, i'm progressing

Looks like you're getting there. Plans seem to be on track.

Yes, you will continue to learn as you go...especially if you're reading Rod's book and working through some of the threads in the build thread. Hopefully you learn before you build...or before it's too late to undo.

Keep it going - rock on \m/,

Scott

rockindad wrote:Looks like you're getting there. Plans seem to be on track.

Yes, you will continue to learn as you go...especially if you're reading Rod's book and working through some of the threads in the build thread. Hopefully you learn before you build...or before it's too late to undo.

Keep it going - rock on \m/,

Scott

Thanks for the encouraging words mate

It is good that you mention the fact about learning before you build. My biggest fear is to be half way through the construction end then suddenly understand that my assembly will not work. I'll rather spend 6 months planing this to perfection, than recklessly hurry up the planing and then when it's done, i'll just sit down and cry. hah

Hi there Koma, and welcome!

the most important factor was the size of the room, to avoid modal activity.

You can't "avoid" modal activity by changing the dimensions of a room. ALL rooms have modes, regardless of the size or shape. A mode is simply a path that a sound wave can take around the room and arrive back at it's starting point, in phase. What you change by having a bigger room, is to have more modes in the low frequency end of the spectrum, and they are closer to each other. Which is good! In small rooms, the modes are a long way apart from each other (in frequency), and they start at higher frequencies. Which is bad. So it's great that you can have a bigger room, but it will not eliminate modes: it will just improve the modal response.

The slab in my basement is a simple concrete slab which is about 10 cm thick. The outer walls (also concrete) is 30 cm thick.

Excellent! That's very good for isolation.

To obtain the highest possible isolation, i am thinking that the double frame wall is the way to go, although it eats up a lot of space.

You already have one wall: your concrete wall is your "outer leaf". So you only need ONE frame to create a proper 2-leaf system. You do not need two frames: that would, indeed, waste a lot of space, and tit would also reduce your low frequency isolation.

In the celling if possible, i want to install 3 layers of drywall, then insulation, then rc-1 channel ( well we don't really have that in norway, but a Norwegian version of it) and then two layers of drywall.

That would create a 3-leaf system, which would have poor isolation in low frequencies. You should only ever have a two-leaf system, which is the least expensive and most effective.

Based on the information given, what would be the best design for the walls? Is a rectangular shape something i should avoid?

You only have a very small budget for this, so yes, your only option is a rectangular shape. You won't be able to do one of the more complex shaped rooms, such as RFZ, because that would increase the costs, even though it would also improve the acoustics.

(photo of ceiling above)

So you have floor boards (planks) on top of 2x6 or maybe 2x8 joists? You will need to seal that off somehow, and add some mass as well. I would suggest putting two layers of drywall or MDF up there, against those floor boards, holding them in place with cleats nailed sideways into the joists, and carefully caulking all around the edges with acoustic caulk. BUT!!! You will need to get a structural engineer to take a look at that and tell you if it is safe to do that. You can't just add a lot of extra weight on those joists unless it is safe to do so. Those joists are very small, and they span a long distance, so they won't be able to handle much extra load. You might need to replace them with something bigger. A structural engineer is the only persona qualified to tell you.

Because i live in Norway, we don't have access to the RC1 Channel, since i am going for a double frame wall it does not apply to the walls.

Once again, you do NOT need a double-framed wall! You only need ONE frame in there, a few cm away from the existing concrete wall: Then you put drywall ("gypsum board") on only ONE side of that frame. Done!

But for the celling i need some kind of decoupling, so.. what we have on offer up here in the fjords is this:

That does not look like it will decouple much, but even if it does, you won't be able to do that. Your ceiling joists will not be able to support all of that extra load. It wont be able to handle the load of the two layers that you need to "beef up" the floor above you, and also the two layers that you'd need for the ceiling itself, and also the joists, and also the acoustic treatment that you will need on the ceiling, and also the insulation that you will in the cavity, and also the lights, and also.... There's just too much load up there.

The only option you have here is to put new joists across the top of your new walls, and put your new ceiling on those joists.

The file is now to big to upload to this site, so i'am using dropbox!

But you still have two frames in there! There is NO NEED to have two frames around your room! One of them is doing NOTHING AT ALL! You only need ONE single frame there, with drywall on only one side of it. You are wasting a lot of money, time and effort by building that frame which does nothing...

And it's far from symmetrical to say the least.

It's still fine. You can have the control room area in the narrower end of the room, facing the walls, and you will have good symmetry there, then you can have your "recording" area at the other end, where it is wider. That would work out fine.

Reading through Rod's book again, and i just realised that i should add 2 layers of drywall on the outside of the first assembly, how else would i achieve an airtight construction?

I think you are misunderstanding the concept here! Your existing concrete walls ARE your outer leaf. So no you ONLY need to add the INNER leaf. If the concrete walls do not complete surround your room, then you might need to build an isolation wall in that area to complete the outer leaf, but for those parts of your studio that will be directly facing the existing concrete walls, that is all you need.

My biggest fear is to be half way through the construction end then suddenly understand that my assembly will not work. I'll rather spend 6 months planing this to perfection,

Exactly! That's the smart, intelligent, correct way to design a studio. Do it all in SketchUp, and double-check everything, to make sure it all fits properly, and nothing gets in the way of anything else.

However, I see one big problem with your design so far: there is no HVAC! You definitely will need both ventilation and air conditioning in that room, and HVAC takes up a lot of space. You should start planning for that now as well. It is very important....


- Stuart -

First of all, thank you very much for answering and welcoming me to the forum, i really appreciate it!
I have seen all the post you have to go through every day to keep this forum alive, and my god.. that just a life saver right there.

After reading your post i was partly relieved, and partly surprised. I guess i have been over-thinking/misunderstanding the double
leaf systems. I failed to see that the concrete wall could represent a leaf because it isn't 100% intact. The walls pointing to the other rooms in the basement has some holes and cracks in them. I guess now, that i just have to take this into consideration and be real precise when covering these holes up. Also, as you said, it will save me some money, which is always good

I have already contacted a structural engineer in regards to the beam issue in the celling. He will have some answers for me next week. I asked him for what could be a solution, if i need some more reinforcement to carry the load, and he replied that it shouldn't a problem to reinforce the beams. Although he was skeptical that anything had to be done at all... well, i'll just wait and see. And ofc, i will report back here.

The next few days, i'll be reading up on the HVAC section of Rod's book, and really dive in to the whole matter, also i have uploaded a new sketch up file with the corrections you gave me:

Link: https://www.dropbox.com/s/3hg223iudh8ok ... e.skp?dl=0


Cheers, Chris.

So, some quick questions about the outer (concrete) leaf, stud+beams and door frame.

- I figure that these gaps between the studs (2x 2x4) needs to be sealed of somehow. My best bet (based on the "freeform" structure of the cavity) is to use foam. Can someone confirm this?

- The studs supporting the beam is nailed to the doorframe, yes.. after the carpenter installed the support beam he just nailed the studs to the doorframe, and left. So, what i am trying to figure out is how this is going to effect the flanking paths of the room, when already, the celling and the outer leaf connects. Is this a problem?

- Also in regards to the question above, how am i supposed to fit in a new door frame? Do i need to remove the old one, secure the stud supporting the beam some other way, and then fit in a new door frame?


Cheers, Chris.

- I figure that these gaps between the studs (2x 2x4) needs to be sealed of somehow. My best bet (based on the "freeform" structure of the cavity) is to use foam. Can someone confirm this?

I'm not sure which gaps you are referring to. You mean the ones between the floorboards above? You could seal all of those individually with acoustic caulk, yes, but the amount of work and cost of sealant would be pretty high. Unless you need very high levels of isolation, it would probably be far easier to just use the normal "beef up between the joists" method, using a couple of layers of drywall, cleats, and caulk around the edges.

- The studs supporting the beam is nailed to the doorframe, yes.. after the carpenter installed the support beam he just nailed the studs to the doorframe, and left. So, what i am trying to figure out is how this is going to effect the flanking paths of the room, when already, the celling and the outer leaf connects. Is this a problem?

From what I can see in the photos, you only have the outer leaf in place at the moment, so any connections between different parts of that are fine. You have not yet built any of your inner-leaf, so there isn't any flanking. Of course, when you DO build the inner-leaf, that's when you need to take great care to ensure that no part of the inner leaf touches the outer leaf: they must remain absolutely separate. The important thing is to make sure that your outer-leaf is a complete "envelope", that fully surrounds the future inner-leaf. To do that, you will very likely need to complete the missing parts, and seal them well.

- Also in regards to the question above, how am i supposed to fit in a new door frame? Do i need to remove the old one, secure the stud supporting the beam some other way, and then fit in a new door frame?

Why do you need to do that? Is there something wrong with the door frame that is already there? If so, then yes, it would be better to remove it and put in a good one.

I failed to see that the concrete wall could represent a leaf because it isn't 100% intact.

It's not that it "could represent" a leaf: rather, it undoubtedly IS a leaf! It is your outer leaf, regardless of whether or not it is in tact. If it is cracked, broken, or has holes through it, that does not change the fact that it is a leaf. If the holes are very large then it might not be 100% effective as a leaf, but it is still a leaf: it is the massive, rigid, solid, hard envelope that encloses your studio, so it is the outer-leaf. The holes, gaps and cracks will need to be filled and sealed to make it highly effective.

The walls pointing to the other rooms in the basement has some holes and cracks in them. I guess now, that i just have to take this into consideration and be real precise when covering these holes up.

Exactly! Fill them as deep as possible with heavy mass, and make sure that they are sealed absolutely airtight.

I asked him for what could be a solution, if i need some more reinforcement to carry the load, and he replied that it shouldn't a problem to reinforce the beams.

Did you explain to him that the additional dead load will be at least 25 kg/m2, and perhaps as much as 50 kg/m2? It's important that he should know that.

Although he was skeptical that anything had to be done at all...

Maybe he doesn't understand the huge amount of mass that you will be adding to the structure.... Are you sure you explained that to him clearly?

- Stuart -