John Sayers' Recording Studio Design Forum Archive

Hello,

this is my first post on this forum, but I've been trying to download the wealth of knowledge to my brain for a while now!

I am hopefully about to start work on my garage studio conversion soon, but would just like to check I'm not about to make any silly, or expensive, mistakes before I start! I've been doing a lot of internet/forum research and reading Rod Gervais' book for about the last year, so I think I have the basics down, however I have zero construction experience so hoping I havn't missed anything obvious.

The Scenario

- I live on an end terrace in the UK, and we have a garage on the end of the house, slightly larger than single.
- There are neighbours at a 45 degree angle to our house, at the closest point about 15 metres away from the garage.
- The garage is single skin brick , on it's own slab (I believe, as the garage was a recent extension on an older house), with a sloped roof from 3.5m on the house side to 2.8m on the other side.
- The bottom of the roof beams gives an internal ceiling height of 2.7m
- The room is 6.65m x 3.44m
- The floor is currently bare concrete
- There is a roller door at the front and a single door to the back, opening into our garden
- The daytime (when I'll be working mostly) outside noise level is currently 68-70 dbC, although there is construction work going on in the field behind my house

My Requirements

- I am a professional producer/engineer, so do a lot of my work in studios, but to work with trends and current budgets, I am doing more work where it is tracked in a studio and then finished off in my own space (which is temporary since moving house in Feb)
- I plan to use my room as a mix, edit and composition room mostly, with the odd overdub
- I, as my user name suggests, am also a drummer so would like to be able to set up a kit and practice in there. I mainly play jazz, so levels would not be obnoxious!
- I will use this room mostly in the daytime, as I have kids which rules out evening work! But would sometimes need to use the room in later evening for composition work, levels can be controlled here and would be sensible.
- I need to keep the front roller door accessible and have some storage space for my drums for gigs.

My Current Plan

- I am aiming for a single room control room
- I plan to build a rectangular room within a room, leaving a small area at the roller door end, where I will build plywood heavy duty shelves to stack all my drum gear
- I know rectangles aren't ideal, but to maximise space I think I should build a rectangle and then do treatment required within that space.
- The walls will be 2 x4 wood framing with 100mm Rockwool and two layers of Soundbloc 15mm board with Green Glue between.
- The wall at the roller door end will be a double wall with the extra layer having the same construction.
- I will hang a ceiling of two layers of Soundbloc 15mm board, again with green glue between, on Genie clips.
- I plan to stuff the ceiling cavity with as much Rockwool as I can, as I know this will be one of the weak points, plus I may get some extra bass control too??
- The floor will be the Rod Gervais style 2" Rockwool with two layers of OSB "floating" on top.
- The door will consist of an external composite door, and then an internal super door type construction, although I havn't fully finalised the details of this
- Ventillation will be a simple 8" inline fan in duct, with homemade silencer boxes (dead vent style) on inlet/outlet. I looked into HVAC, but on my budget it just isn't doable.

- Internal design is still a little sketchy at this point, but I anticipate two sloped ceiling clouds, one at either end of the room sloping towards the centre, the usual corner trapping and however much of a bass trap my space will allow at the rear. At the moment my main focus is on getting the basic shell up, then I will treat as necessary once I'm there.

Budget

I have a loan of £7,000 to complete this project, so that it is electrics, materials and labour all within that. I know, I know....this is why I've ended up doing the design work myself.

I will be employing a construction handyman, with whom I will work alongside and will also, where my skills allow, do as much as I can myself for budget's sake. I have no real construction experience, just DIY, although I am quite practical and a quick learner!

I have attached a rough Sketchup file (I am very new to it so go easy!) of the project general idea, and will also post pictures of the current room. - AHA, my Sketchup file is too big too attach, is there a better way to do this?

My main questions are:

- am making any major mistakes that you can forsee??
- is it worth adding a layer of Rockwool to the current brick face as well as stuffing the walls of my new framing?
- should I be putting Neoprene underneath the framed walls, or will this just just be negated when the walls are bolted down?

Thanks in advance for you time, and thanks so much for the amazing resource that this forum is!

Adam.

Here are some photos or the current room, and some pictures of my basic plan in Sketchup.

Just wondering whether there would be any merit in using a non-rectangle design, or whether in this circumstance the space lost is more important. I've attached a very basic sketchup pic (as I'm excruciatingly slow on it) of an alternate floor plan.

Thanks

Hi Adam,

Hopefully some of the more experienced members can offer some more detailed advice, but here are the things that came to mind reading your post.

Isolation:
- Drums are going to be a struggle to isolate. Try to borrow/buy a meter, so that you can put absolutes on your requirements.
- How is the roof constructed? This is likely to be the weak point in your isolation goal (along with doors).
- If the shed is on its own slab there is no benefit by floating a floor. You would need much heavier walls and ceilings before this becomes a sticking point. Save yourself the money and headaches by building directly on the slab.

Layout:
- The rectangular option looks better to me. You have limited space, so trying to maximise the volume should be your priority (without sacrificing isolation).

Materials:
- Soundbloc is not worth the premium. Gyproc have a product called Plank which is 19mm thick, and provides 50% more mass for the same/cheaper.
- You will gain extra isolation by sealing the brickwork with paint or PVA.

adamthedrummerboy wrote: - is it worth adding a layer of Rockwool to the current brick face as well as stuffing the walls of my new framing?

Basically, the more you do the better the result. The ideal is to fully stuff the gap, but not so much that it forms a link for vibrations.

adamthedrummerboy wrote: - should I be putting Neoprene underneath the framed walls, or will this just just be negated when the walls are bolted down?

The only benefit to doing this is to create an airtight seal if the floor is very rough. A double bead of caulk will do the same job if the floor is in good condition.

Do you own this house?

If so, I would be tempted to remove the roll up door, and put in a well built solid core door, or set of double doors and build the storage area at the front into a small booth for playing and storing your drums. Cut back on the booth by a couple of feet and I think you could manage it.

Definitely keep the control room facing down the long axis of the room.

Also, I don't think you will need to build a floating floor. Concrete slab provides a decent amount of isolation. Maybe just cover it with hardwood if doesn't look that nice.

Thanks for the replies guys.

thismanysounds wrote:How is the roof constructed? This is likely to be the weak point in your isolation goal (along with doors).

As far as I can tell, the roof is some sort of ply/chipboard with a sealant covering under, and tiled on top. I was hoping to put a layer of 100mm Rockwool on the sloping roof, covered with DPM, then I would have another layer of 100mm Rockwool along joists with a double layer of board hanging on Genie clips. I've decided to pay the premium for Genie clips on the roof as I know this will be my weak point and hoped this would help add a little extra bit of isolation. Do you think there is anything extra I can do here to improve the roof?

thismanysounds wrote:Drums are going to be a struggle to isolate.

This is really an afterthought, between studio work and family I hardly get to practice at home, so if it's just a half hour in sociable hours and attenuated level then I'm sure the neighbours can cope

thismanysounds wrote:Soundbloc is not worth the premium. Gyproc have a product called Plank which is 19mm thick, and provides 50% more mass for the same/cheaper.

Thanks for the tip off! That should save me a fair few bob.... At that weight is the second layer going to stay up ok with Green glue??

thismanysounds wrote:You will gain extra isolation by sealing the brickwork with paint or PVA.

Any particular type of paint, or is it just sealing the brick that's important?

JCBigler wrote:Do you own this house?

If so, I would be tempted to remove the roll up door, and put in a well built solid core door, or set of double doors and build the storage area at the front into a small booth for playing and storing your drums. Cut back on the booth by a couple of feet and I think you could manage it.

I do own the house, but not sure my budget will extend to changing the garage door. As I add up the cost of materials my budget is quickly shrinking! I thought about bricking up the hole and putting a smaller standard door in, but I'd quite to keep the inconspicuous look of a standard garage.

So the consensus seems to be sack off the "floating" floor, that's good to hear. I may go along the route of putting reclaimed wooden flooring straight onto the slab then. One thought, my garage is adjacent to the living room of our house, would the floating floor help isolation here at all?


I know I seemed a bit scatter brained here, but I have come up with one more last minute design! I think the last minute nerves are putting my brain into overdrive...

I've attached a picture of this design. My thinking here is that the door "airlock" in the rear right will add some isolation and make treating the rear corners easier (I would cover the internal studio door in a layer of Rockwool so it's a door come trap. The space in the rear right corner would all be a bass trap stuffed with Rockwool, Since finding out the dimensions of the room would cause some pretty bad room modes up into the 200hz area, I've been keen to try and incorporate some significant bass trapping. Perhaps this design could help sort that out? Please let me know any thoughts, as at the moment I'm thinking this is my winner.

Thanks so much for your time!

I like that design better.

I don't think you will need the double wall with the double doors for the airlock. That would create a 3-leaf system, I believe, which is worse than a two-leaf system. Your outer leaf is the brick wall and exterior door. Inner leaf is the studio wall and door into the studio. I don't think you need to angle the walls and bass traps at the back of the room as much as they are. 15 degrees will get you far enough out of parallel from the front wall to not be an issue. And it will get you a little more room in your control room.

Soffit mount your monitors in the corners at the front of the room.

And man, that front section is just screaming vocal booth to me. If you lose the floating floor, does your budget allow for a booth and getting rid of the roll up door?

At that weight is the second layer going to stay up ok with Green glue??

GREEN Glue is NOT a glue ! NOT.

Layers must be screwed together.

note: we know it says 'glue' in the product name ... WHY ... not sure, but we are absolutely certain it is not to glue two pieces together.

RJHollins wrote: Layers must be screwed together.

Isn't normal practice to screw the first layer of drywall to the wood or metal frame studs and then use the green glue to bind the second and first layers of drywall together?

Screwing the second layer of drywall through the first layer of drywall and into the studs would physically couple those two layers together and compromise the isolation benefits of having multiple layers of drywall, which need to be separated from each other.

Often times, the ceiling is built inside-out, so that the multiple layers of drywall sit on top of the ceiling frame, and are "green glued" to each other rather than hanging over head. This also allows the acoustic insulation to be hung under the drywall, between the frame studs and aid in the room treatment.

Isn't normal practice to screw the first layer of drywall to the wood or metal frame studs and then use the green glue to bind the second and first layers of drywall together?

Absolutely NOT.

From my understanding ... the 2 layers are there to provide one thing ... MASS.

The GreenGlue is not an adhesive [why they put Glue in the name has been an issue of confusion from the beginning].

But for what GG does ... it does it very well ! My entire build used it between all the dual layers of 5/8" drywall. I will be using it on my new build coming up. .

'SoundMan' [Stuart], must be very busy at the moment. He, or one of the other GURUs will probably comment on the GG issue. I do NOT portend to expert on studio design. I did get educated [from this site] when my current room was designed and built. I also read many, many posting/threads over the years, and read all the new thread coming in [always looking to learn, and curious to what other's are doing]. GreenGlue get mentioned often. ANY mention of considering it as a 'glue' has been strongly stated to NOT be a glue of any sort. Further ... ALL layers of drywall should follow 'proper schedule' . That is, each layer gets properly screwed in using an 'overlapped' seams technique.

Hope this clarifies.

OH ... I see mention of 'inside out' ceiling.

I cannot directly speak on that design concept and how it would relate to using GreenGlue. For that, I would definately wait on Expert comment to that. For the walls, however, GG will NOT secure them together on its' own.

JCBigler wrote:And man, that front section is just screaming vocal booth to me.

I hear you JC! Unfortunately for now I'm gonna have to go with practicality, and the practicality is that I have 3 drums kits , various snares and percussion to store and nowhere else to put them. So for now, I'll have to keep in a single room operation I'm afraid.

JCBigler wrote:GREEN Glue is NOT a glue ! NOT.

Affirmative! For some reason I thought the screws would negate the isolation properties of the GG, but apparently not. Don't worry, although I'm a construction noob I would have read the instructions/watched instructional vid before embarking so hopefully would have found this out before kicking off! Thanks for chiming in RJ.

JCBigler wrote:I don't think you will need the double wall with the double doors for the airlock.

Good point about the 3 leaf. Just from a practical point of view, If I have a single wall there with drywall on the inside, how can I cover the back of the wall (the door entrance side) without creating a 3 leaf? Would you just use a fabric covering to retain the Rockwool?

Thanks again guys.

Re: Soffit Mounting, for some reason this scares me a little! Is it relatively simple to achieve good soffit mounting? I can't seem to find an active link to the SAE guide, is it available anywhere?
I also plan on my next monitor purchase being Focal Twins, and I've read mixed advice about the suitability of soffit mounting these speakers, which puts me off a little.

Thanks

Sorry for the constant questions, but getting back to the three leaf thing; would it make sense to have the wall inside out in the corner where the door is? So plasterboard on the exterior and then I can fabric cover the internal wall in that corner. Then it will be a better match to my bass trap corner on the other side.

I think I'm building myself up to soffit mounting, been reading a lot of tips from this forum and not so scared now. The one thing that bothers me is changing monitors as I plan to do that in the near future, but I might go for a removable tray as in Thomas Barefoot's design.

Thanks again all!

Quick insulation question for you guys:

I plan on using Earthwool RS60 100mm slabs in my build which is 60kg/m3. I was wondering, as the roof is inevitably the weak point in my build, would it be worth forking out for a higher density 100kg/m3 or 140kg/m3 for the roof section?

Would that make a discernible difference, or will I be wasting cash unnecessarily?

Thanks in advance oh Wizards of Construction!

Adam.