John Sayers' Recording Studio Design Forum Archive

Attached are some photos of the most recent room design I've come up with.

I have my room dimensions and info listed in my other post but I'll include the basic stuff at the bottom of this post.

Here are my basic questions:

1) Room shape.
In dark brown I have shown my "shell" wall which is the sound isolating single leaf wall for each room (vocal booth, live room and control room). I plan on using 2 layers of 5/8" gypsum. 2-leaf system is shown between the Live room and Booth and Control Room. What is not shown is the ceiling "beef up" (using the method found on here) which will be adding 2 layers 5/8" rock to existing subfloor. The question is should I keep front my "shell" walls (dark brown studs in photo) rectangular? Or should I angle them as I have shown? I'm actually assuming my design is wrong and an actual rectangle might give me better bass-trapping area.
I's alo worth noting that I'd rather have a good shaped/sized room than a hang out area - so if I need to push back the rear wall and booth and lose some space back there I'm ok with that.

2) Room Treatment.
I downloaded Room Eq Wizard and familiarized myself with it by analyzing my current room - wow is that thing accurate!! Anyway I'm assuming that theres only so much I can do in term of predicting what the room WILL/MAY sound like - and the actual room treatment should be determined after I run REW in my new finished space; speakers in soffits, room untreated. My question is - is there any room treatment that I will undoubtedly need - and that I could incorporate into my sketch up design?. I have 2 corners with plenty of space toward the rear of the room which I'm assuming will need bass trapping. But beyond that, I don't know what frequency(s) need attention. I can use room simulator in REW to predict the problem frequencies - but is it too early for me to start designing/planning treatment for those frequencies? Or os it best to wait until after I analyze my room?

3) Ceiling Treatment (RFZ):
Should I use a Cloud for overhead/ceiling treatment or design an Angled ceiling in the the "Shell"?

4) Soffit.
This is one area where I'd like to not cut any corners (financially that is - I'll probably have to cut many corners physically to make this work). I know my speakers are way big for the room. I know I need that wall massive to make it work right and Im thinking of even incorporating concrete into the design, maybe for the stands, maybe for the baffle wall itself, maybe as a box around the speaker (as seen in this photo from the Genelec website). I have many question about the specifics of Johns design and also the (i think Barefoot's design?) with the stands and straps. Before I ask too many questions or do too much research into a design which may not be ideal for this room - I was wondering if anyone had any suggestion about how to construct this soffit? These are very large speakers (Urei 813) and the cabinets themselves are massive. There are also subwoofers which I'd like to tuck up underneath the build-out somehow but I pretty sure these don't need to be "soffit" mounted per say acoustically - I'd like to get them flush with the wall for aesthetic purposes. If I don't get any advice I'll probably end up doing a hybrid between Johns and bare foots design with concrete stands and since I don't have any experience with concrete walls - I'd prob do 2 layers of gypsum there as my "massive"? baffle wall. I hope that isn't a mistake….

5) Beef-Up:
I am actually planning on starting the "beef-up" process fairly soon within 3 weeks or so. How important is it to match the mass of the existing subfloor to my new 2 layer gypsum ceiling? Some areas of the ceiling have different flooring types depending on the room above the subfloor so probably different mass. Am I to calculate the mass of each of these areas and then add only the amount of drywall to the underside as to match the new ceiling mass? Would it be a dire mistake to mindlessly just put two layers of gypsum without using MATH!

6) Other mistakes!!
If anyone can point out any horrible mistakes with my design or suggestions for better orientation or layout or anything at all please let me know!

now onto to researching vapor barriers…oh the joy.

I just ordered Rod Gervais' book as well and it shipped today!!

Ok heres the basic room info (more on my original post)
Existing Basement:
7'-0"(H) x 28'-10"(L) x 23'-9"(W)
(3) 2x8 beams (ORANGE) sitting on vertical poles/columns (RED) down the center (lengthwise)
PIPES shown in ORANGE are existing waste or utility lines.
- There are also 2 additional poles/columns off-center.
- I have (2) 18" subs in boxes that are 29" W x 28"D x 25" H
- Main monitors are Urei 813. boxes are 36"H x 31"W x 22" D
- Desk is an Argosy and is shown pretty close to scale in the drawing. (I am trying to swap out the two desk mounted racks with with ones that are about 6" lower and no flat top)
- I also have NS-10's and Mackie HR824's but may end up using the HR824's elsewhere in the house with a feed.

The room is going to be used for mixing hip hop and reggae and pop mostly, and occasional rock bands. So accurate low end monitoring is a must!

I have my room dimensions and info listed in my other post but I'll include the basic stuff at the bottom of this post.

It's better to keep all your posts about your build in one place, in the same thread. That helps you to keep track of where you came from and where you are going, but it also helps others in the future who might be following your thread, because they have a similar situation and want to learn what you did, and how it turned out.

In dark brown I have shown my "shell" wall which is the sound isolating single leaf wall for each room

I'm just wondering why that shell follows the same line as the speaker soffits at the front of the CR. There's no need to do that, and it just complicates the build: better to go straight across with that wall.

Also, I'm assuming that the outer-leaf will be completed around the other two sides of this area? It looks like these rooms will be in a corner of your basement, and the basement walls will therefore provide two of the outer leaf walls, but you also need to add the other two walls, to create the complete envelope. It would help if you show those on your diagrams, to clarify the "big picture".

The question is should I keep front my "shell" walls (dark brown studs in photo) rectangular? Or should I angle them as I have shown?

Looks like I already answered that above! I'm assuming you are talking about the angles where the speaker soffits are? Not needed. Keep that walls straight to simplify construction, and also to improve the acoustics inside the soffits.

I'm actually assuming my design is wrong and an actual rectangle might give me better bass-trapping area.

Yup!

I's alo worth noting that I'd rather have a good shaped/sized room than a hang out area - so if I need to push back the rear wall and booth and lose some space back there I'm ok with that.

Here too it would help if you show the outer-leaf dividing wall that goes between the rear wall of the CR and that green room area. Right now, it looks like the green room is inside your MSM wall cavity! If you add the missing walls in there, the overal design is a lot clearer.

Anyway I'm assuming that theres only so much I can do in term of predicting what the room WILL/MAY sound like - and the actual room treatment should be determined after I run REW in my new finished space; speakers in soffits, room untreated.

Yup! Exactly. Start by taking some very careful base-line measurements, one speaker at at time then again in combinations, then again with all of them running, so you have basic data against which you can compare each round of treatment. That helps you see what is working, what isn't, and what you still have to do to get the room good.

My question is - is there any room treatment that I will undoubtedly need - and that I could incorporate into my sketch up design?. I have 2 corners with plenty of space toward the rear of the room which I'm assuming will need bass trapping.

yup again! bass traps will be needed for sure! Big ones, and lots of them, because the room is small.

You will also undoubtedly need some for of control at your first reflection points: that might be angled reflectors, or absorbers, or both. With such huge speakers, that's going to be a major issue for you, since the first reflection "points" won't actually be points at all: they will be areas, or zones.

But beyond that, I don't know what frequency(s) need attention. I can use room simulator in REW to predict the problem frequencies - but is it too early for me to start designing/planning treatment for those frequencies? Or os it best to wait until after I analyze my room?

You are doing an RFZ style room, that is more than just a simple rectangular box. So all calculators that consider the room to be a box will not give you accurate predictions. Even if you did have a perfect rectangle, the predictions would still not be 100% accurate, since there's no such thing as perfect building materials, nor perfect building technique. The actual result will not match the predicted result, so it's best to just do design in the minimum that you will need without any doubt, then leave plenty of space to add other devices as needed, when you do the REW analysis.

There are two schools of though here: one is to design the room to be as live as possible, then slowly add treatment to "kill" it down to the required level. The other is to design the room as dead as possible, then add devices to liven it up as needed. Personally, I prefer the second option: Start with a really dead room (inside-out walls and ceiling, filled deep with good insulation) then cover that up with tuned treatment, reflective areas, diffusion, or even more absorption, as the case may be for each part of the room.

Should I use a Cloud for overhead/ceiling treatment or design an Angled ceiling in the the "Shell"?

Both ways work, but from the point of view of actually building it, it is far easier to have a flat ceiling then hand an angled cloud below it. That way, you also get to adjust the angle if you need to, just by making the chains longer or shorter. It's hard to adjust the angle of a purpose-built ceiling! I usually only do angled ceilings where there's a real need for that, such as if there is a structural beam, HVAC duct, or something else that can't be moved up there anyway.

(financially that is - I'll probably have to cut many corners physically to make this work).

very true! lots of corners to be cut in building a soffit, and most of them have to be cut at strange angles...

I know my speakers are way big for the room. I know I need that wall massive to make it work right and Im thinking of even incorporating concrete into the design,

Right on all three counts!

Before I ask too many questions or do too much research into a design which may not be ideal for this room - I was wondering if anyone had any suggestion about how to construct this soffit?

I can OM you something about that, if you want, but I can't put it out in public on the forum, as it's a paid design I did for one of my customers, and he hasn't yet given me permission to release it, only to show it in private. PM me if you are interested.

Before I ask too many questions or do too much research into a design which may not be ideal for this room - I was wondering if anyone had any suggestion about how to construct this soffit?

Given the size and power of those things, you are going to have to build even more rigidly and massively than most people. I'd seriously consider brick or concrete stands inside the soffit to support them, then a decoupling system to keep them "floating" off that, and also a concrete front baffle for the soffit. The rest of the soffit can be wood (framing and finish), but the support and baffle would be good in concrete. One of my customers did a concrete front baffle for much smaller speakers than yours, and it worked out great. If you do decide to tilt your speakers down, then you are going to been very hefty tie-downs to keep them in place. That's a BIG box, with lots od vibration when run at high power: that has to be kept tightly under control, but also decoupled...

There are also subwoofers which I'd like to tuck up underneath the build-out somehow but I pretty sure these don't need to be "soffit" mounted per say acoustically - I'd like to get them flush with the wall for aesthetic purposes.

Right: just put them on the floor, close up the real front wall, below the center section of the soffit, and make that deep enough that you can hide them behind a cloth panel or some such. That's what I often do for subs. PM me about that too.

I'd prob do 2 layers of gypsum there as my "massive"? baffle wall.

Not nearly enough for those massive things. I'd want a lot more mass on the front baffle. Consider using really thick fiber-cement board, which can be cut fairly simply with a masonry blade in a circular saw, or using an angle grinder (lots of dust!). Your speakers are rectangular, so cutting the hole isn't too much of an issue, but it does have to be fairly accurate: you need to leave a small gap between the speaker cabinet and the baffle, for decoupling...

How important is it to match the mass of the existing subfloor to my new 2 layer gypsum ceiling?

The basic concept is that the surface density all around the entire leaf, on all sides, should be about the same. If you have one area that is substantially lower surface density, then that's a weak spot, for isolation, so you should concentrate on that area. On the other hand, if you have one area that has substantially higher surface density than the rest, then you wasted money on that part! (Unless it already was there, of course).

One major point here: get a certified structural engineer to sign off on anything you do to that sub-floor above you. That's dangerous stuff, to be adding lots of mass to that above your head. There are limits to what the structure can handle, in terms of additional live load, so make sure that you stay within those limits, regardless of how much mass you "need"! If you really do want very high isolation, then you might need to beef up the structure of that floor with additional joists, beams or pillars, but only a qualified structural engineer can guide you on that.

Am I to calculate the mass of each of these areas and then add only the amount of drywall to the underside as to match the new ceiling mass?

Yes!

Would it be a dire mistake to mindlessly just put two layers of gypsum without using MATH!

YES!

But don't try to do the math yourself: Get that structural engineer to come in and do it for you! This is one area of building where you cannot skimp, and where it is very dangerous to go it alone. Don't do that. Call in the expert. He'll charge you a couple of hundred bucks to inspect the place, do some magical incantations on his computer, and give you a signed piece of paper telling you exactly what you can do with what you have, and also what additional things you might need to do to get where you want to go. That's the smartest money you can invest in your entire build. Well worth every cent.

now onto to researching vapor barriers…oh the joy.

General rule: they go up against the warmest side of the wall cavity, INSIDE the cavity. For guidance beyond that, check your local building code, and ask your contractor about how he normally does it in your area.

The room is going to be used for mixing hip hop and reggae and pop mostly, and occasional rock bands. So accurate low end monitoring is a must!

Then make your bass traps HUGE! And also leave lots of space on the rear and front walls for additional tuned treatment, if it turns out to be necessary. Modal issues and SBIR can be a bitch to control in small rooms, especially with massive speakers that go very low...

One general comment: You don't seem to be leaving much additional area around your speakers: the front baffles of your soffits are not much bigger than the speakers themselves. I'd try to make them bigger, if you can.


- Stuart -

Hey Stuart thanks for the reply!

I typed a lengthy response and then when I went to save the draft I had to log back in and now I think i lost it all

Basically I just re-drew a few things, I show the foundation concrete walls now and I straightened out that front wall behind the soffits.

Here too it would help if you show the outer-leaf dividing wall that goes between the rear wall of the CR and that green room area. Right now, it looks like the green room is inside your MSM wall cavity! If you add the missing walls in there, the overal design is a lot clearer.

Also, I'm assuming that the outer-leaf will be completed around the other two sides of this area? It looks like these rooms will be in a corner of your basement, and the basement walls will therefore provide two of the outer leaf walls, but you also need to add the other two walls, to create the complete envelope. It would help if you show those on your diagrams, to clarify the "big picture".

I think this is a flaw in my design - The Green Room and Utility Room were NOT going to have walls built around them - so yes they essentially would be inside the MSM cavity. My though process behind this was that I wasn't too concerned about noise between those two area. The Utilities (Boiler and Air Handler) may need a wall around them if they are too loud. But as far as the Green Room - I am aware that there is only a single leaf between any noise coming from the Green Room and the Vocal Booth and the Control Room. Essentially people in that room may have to keep quit while Im recording vocals - or just have them come into the control room. If this is a mistake I will have to redesign a few things but Im imagining some problems with door swings and an even smaller Green Room….

I would still have my 2 leaf system between the upstairs and outdoors, and of course between the Vocal Booth/ Live Room and Control room.

One general comment: You don't seem to be leaving much additional area around your speakers: the front baffles of your soffits are not much bigger than the speakers themselves. I'd try to make them bigger, if you can.

In term of having larger front baffles - I revisited my original WIDE orientation design. If I close off the area I originally had as a door (just to the left of the left speaker) - then I can make a very large baffle (see photos).
Additionally - everyone who I've shown both deigns too - they all prefer the Wide Room orientation. None of them are coming from an acoustical standpoint though, its purely aesthetics and "vibes" that they like - which are important too.

So is there any merit going back to this Wide design. I can have larger baffles - and If I move my desk all the way up - I can be at about 42% listening position (40% If i lean in a bit)

This layout I can also have the entire back wall for bass trapping since there are no doors.

I can OM you something about that, if you want, but I can't put it out in public on the forum, as it's a paid design I did for one of my customers, and he hasn't yet given me permission to release it, only to show it in private. PM me if you are interested.

Yes I'll PM you I am very interested - thanks!

Right: just put them on the floor, close up the real front wall, below the center section of the soffit, and make that deep enough that you can hide them behind a cloth panel or some such. That's what I often do for subs. PM me about that too.

Great - I'll message you about that too - I'm not sure of these should go on Rubber pads or anything to secure them in place so that they don't "walk" around…

I guess my very next step is to hire a structural engineer ASAP. I am doing a dormer on the second floor of the house and the architect said its a new code to to have the existing beams in the basement [(3) 2x8 beams] - to be reinforced with steel plates on either side, and incorporated it into the blueprints. Hopefully this reinforcement is enough to support a "beef up" as well!

- Mike

Basically I just re-drew a few things, I show the foundation concrete walls now and I straightened out that front wall behind the soffits.

That part is better, but you are still missing the rest of your isolation shell. Here's what you need to do to fix that:
You need to build a wall that follows the blue line, roughly, and connect to the outer leaf walls at both ends, as well as the existing ceiling, and the floor.

Without that, you have no isolation. Just a single leaf, so all you get is Mass Law...

I think this is a flaw in my design - The Green Room and Utility Room were NOT going to have walls built around them - so yes they essentially would be inside the MSM cavity

Correct: that is a design flaw. Without the complete shell, you don't have "MSM" at all: just "M".

My though process behind this was that I wasn't too concerned about noise between those two area.

That's kind of like saying: "I want to build an aquarium for my fish, but I'm not too concerned about seeing them from the sides, so I'll only put glass on the front of my tank...!". That's exactly the situation you have if you don't complete the shell. No shell = no MSM = no isolation.

But as far as the Green Room - I am aware that there is only a single leaf between any noise coming from the Green Room and the Vocal Booth and the Control Room. Essentially people in that room may have to keep quit while Im recording vocals - or just have them come into the control room.

You seem to be misunderstanding the principle of how MSM isolation works: You need a complete outer shell, which is the first "M", and a complete inner shell, which is the second "M", and you need air trapped between them, which is the "S". When you have that, you have a tuned system, that works much like a band-pass filter on an equalizer: it blocks sound really well at the frequencies that is it NOT tuned to. So you tune it to a frequency that is way below the ones you want to isolate. Bingo! Good isolation, low cost. But if you take any one of the three parts, then you have no isolation at all! That destroys the system. In your case, you have taken away the other "M" and also the "S", so there is no system at all. Just a single "M". And that applies to the entire studio, not just the green room, or CR, or LR. ALL of it has zero isolation, because you don't have the complete isolation shell. There is no air "spring" trapped between the two leaves of mass in your case, so there is no tuning, and no isolation.

Im imagining some problems with door swings and an even smaller Green Room….

If you have issues with door swings, then use sliding glass doors. And if you can't fit in a Green Room, then you can't fit it in! So leave it out... OR make the LR smaller, and put the Green Room over there...

I would still have my 2 leaf system between the upstairs and outdoors, and of course between the Vocal Booth/ Live Room and Control room.

No you wouldn't, because you only have part of the system. Going back to the aquarium. That's like saying "But I still have glass on the bottom of the tank, and on the front, and also on the back, so I don't get why the water is leaking out the sides, when I'm not worried about the sides!"...

In term of having larger front baffles - I revisited my original WIDE orientation design. If I close off the area I originally had as a door (just to the left of the left speaker) - then I can make a very large baffle (see photos).

Yeah, but then you are stuck with having your head in the exact geometric center of the room, and very close to the back wall: way inside the Haas time, and focusing all the modal resonance dips and peaks of the room, exactly at your ears....

I think the conclusion you are fast arriving at, is that you don't have enough space to do everything you want to do, and a lot of that is caused by grasping on to those way over-sized speakers and huge desk. If you want a workable setup, you have to give up something: Either forget about having all those rooms and just stick with one or two, or forget about having those massive monster speakers and huge desk in a tiny room, and swap them out for something more suitable.

In studio design, "compromise" is the name of the game. When I'm designing places for my paying clients, I sometimes have to try to fit in tons of stuff they ask for but really don't need, and I do that as well as I possibly can, but I also show them a second version of how it could be if they were to set more reasonable goals, dropping some of the items on their wish list. Usually, they see reason and decide to go for something less ambitious that makes good sense, acoustically and visually.

None of them are coming from an acoustical standpoint though, its purely aesthetics and "vibes" that they like - which are important too.

What is the primary purpose of s studio? To only look cool? Or to make good music and also look cool?

To my way of thinking, the reason most people want a studio is so they can make good music. That implies a place where they can track, mix, and maybe even master accurately, at high quality. A place that looks stunning but sounds like crap is not going to do that. A place that sounds amazing but looks like crap is not a good option either, but it's still better than the first one, as a RECORDING STUDIO. The ideal, of course, is to then take the design for the "sound stunning but looks like crap", and make it NOT look like crap any more! It's a hell of a lot easier to fix a room that has lousy aesthetics, than it is to fix a room that has lousy acoustics....

So I guess the choice you have to make is: Do I want to have a studio where I can make great music because it is acoustically accurate? Or do I want to have a place that looks smashing, but doesn't let me make good music?

Read though the ITU-R BS.1116-2 document, which lays out the technical specs for critical listening rooms, and you'll see what it takes to make a room sound good. If your room isn't close to those specs, then it won't be a place where you can make good music easily.

The way I design rooms is to first make them sound as good as possible, then to figure out how to make that look good as well. The two are not mutually exclusive.

This layout I can also have the entire back wall for bass trapping since there are no doors.

There's plenty of space for bass trapping at the rear of the "long" version...

I'm not sure of these should go on Rubber pads or anything to secure them in place so that they don't "walk" around…

You can put them on pads if you want: I often do.

I guess my very next step is to hire a structural engineer ASAP.

Yup! A very worthwhile investment.

the architect said its a new code to to have the existing beams in the basement [(3) 2x8 beams] - to be reinforced with steel plates on either side, and incorporated it into the blueprints. Hopefully this reinforcement is enough to support a "beef up" as well!

If not, consider steel beams instead, or maybe engineered joists (LVLs). I would seriously consider putting a large beam across the entire basement, and clear out all the intervening poles. Leave a large, open, clear area, and you might find you have more layout options.


Have you tried a "corner control room" layout? That might work for you...


- Stuart -

Amazing reply Stuart - wow thank you. very informative. Ok so I guess my thinking has been a little off the whole time.

You seem to be misunderstanding the principle of how MSM isolation works: You need a complete outer shell, which is the first "M", and a complete inner shell, which is the second "M", and you need air trapped between them, which is the "S". When you have that, you have a tuned system, that works much like a band-pass filter on an equalizer: it blocks sound really well at the frequencies that is it NOT tuned to. So you tune it to a frequency that is way below the ones you want to isolate. Bingo! Good isolation, low cost. But if you take any one of the three parts, then you have no isolation at all! That destroys the system. In your case, you have taken away the other "M" and also the "S", so there is no system at all. Just a single "M". And that applies to the entire studio, not just the green room, or CR, or LR. ALL of it has zero isolation, because you don't have the complete isolation shell. There is no air "spring" trapped between the two leaves of mass in your case, so there is no tuning, and no isolation.

That one word you used - "Spring" - has kind of awakened me into how the system works. Basically, originally I was thinking the whole green room was a very large "S" in the MSM system. Ceiling is one M - green room is the "S" and the control room wall is the other "M".

But if I'm understanding correctly - to make the system work - some sort of pressure or air pocket (or "spring") needs to build up in the "S" space.? Any my green room - was too large to have that occur.

I think now I am also understand why It also kills my isolation between the studio and the control room and vocal booth, because the small spaces in between the walls are wide open at the end - eliminating the possibility of that "spring" to build up?

This will undoubtedly add some complication to the design but all the more reason I am on here to learn how to do it right.

Am I understanding this all correctly ??

Now the blue line you have drawn I have a few questions about.
1) If you trace a sound from the drum-set to the control room - doesn't it now pass through 4 leafs? Is that ok? It only passes through 2 leafs as it goes through the wall directly between the 2 rooms. But as it goes out of the bathroom side of the live room - it then needs to go through 2 leafs again to get into the control room. I guess the decibel levels are basically "ISOLATED" at this point so maybe I am overthinking it and its ok.

2) How would this wall be built? Since your showing just a single wall - I'm assuming this would go all the way up to the subfloor? and there would also be no new ceiling attached to these walls? Just a wall with insulation and 2 layers of gypsum on one side?

Yeah, but then you are stuck with having your head in the exact geometric center of the room, and very close to the back wall: way inside the Haas time, and focusing all the modal resonance dips and peaks of the room, exactly at your ears....

I think the conclusion you are fast arriving at, is that you don't have enough space to do everything you want to do, and a lot of that is caused by grasping on to those way over-sized speakers and huge desk. If you want a workable setup, you have to give up something: Either forget about having all those rooms and just stick with one or two, or forget about having those massive monster speakers and huge desk in a tiny room, and swap them out for something more suitable.

Sound is definitely waaay more important to me (over looks/aesthetics). And like you said - a lot of that can be achieved anyway with nice finish work and other things, etc.... Ideally, I'd actually like to do less session/tracking work with clients coming in - and more mixing work where people email me tracks to be mixed. Luckily things have recently been heading in that direction too .

I am in love with my Urei's - they were a gift directly from Fred Flintstone
And my desk I love as well.
I may not be willing to sacrifice on those.
I've tries a few powered monitors Mackie HR824 some Gelelec's 1032's and even i'm my current tiny room I've always preferred the sound of these big old guys with a nice MC2 power amp. I've even heard the focal sm9s at another studio and although they sounded great were missing something to me.

But I am totally willing to shrink down my live room - or completely eliminate the vocal booth.

My current studio has a small booth and a live room - and I end up cutting vocals in the live room anyway. So I really don't NEED both. I can but up gobo's to deaden the vocal sound in the live room if I need to.

Ideally, I'd like to have the live room large enough to jam with a bass player and a guitarist too.

Bathroom and a least some very small Green Room is necessary as I don't want people smoking and drinking/ eating in
the control room. My sister's bathroom is on the first floor and client traffic there is not something she wants.

I wont pursue the wide layout any further as it seems to just be adding too many acoustic hurdles. I'll stick with the long way.

If not, consider steel beams instead, or maybe engineered joists (LVLs). I would seriously consider putting a large beam across the entire basement, and clear out all the intervening poles. Leave a large, open, clear area, and you might find you have more layout options.


Have you tried a "corner control room" layout? That might work for you...

I will talk to the structural engineer about that possibility. I sort of assumed anything like that would be too expensive but its worth asking.

As far as the "corner control room" no I am not familiar with that. Do you know of any good posts to reference?

I'll search in the meantime.

Thanks again for the Stuart I think I have learned the most so far in one sitting by reading this post.

Also, I thought I PM'd you but I don't see it in my outbox? Did you receive anything?

Here's a few photos of the latest design I've been sketching up. I think I'm starting to get the 2 leaf thing….




This design obviously has 2 large poles and a beam in the damn center of the control room, but I incorporated them the best I could. I put a couch right up against the poles. A smaller couch may actually fit in between the poles. (Thats a 7'-0" couch scaled off in sketch up - they make shorter ones… This layout may work well with an elevated back section like a carpeted platform while the front of the room has a wood floor?

I guess Ill have to figure out how to construct a leaf around those vertical poles? Or somehow how keep them isolated - or even better hopefully be able to get the removed if the structural engineer says it ok.

Ill also have to do some carful thinking/designing/building in order to place the new ceiling UNDERNEATH the existing house beam. not just a soffit exactly - but and actual dip in the ceiling to avoid that beam. This may work but it will be complicated and Ill have to add additional support somehow since the new ceiling beams/(joists?) will still need to be supported from the walls. Acoustically I'm sure it presents other problems - as do the poles. The poles I was thinking I could keep the finished walls round to avoid as many reflections as possible. maybe even act as free "tube traps" like those ones Bruce Swedien sells….


The shape gets a little funky too how it narrows towards the back.
The room get much much larger this way. 16' wide by 18-2'"



Some advantages are
-a large front soffit area
- a much larger room in general
- being able to have the listening position toward the front 33-38% area.
- A nice space for rear bass trapping
- upgradability if I ever wanted maybe a rear rack to replace the couch?
- amazingly avoids many existing utilities and actually prevents me from having to relocate 2 pipes that I almost guaranteed I would have to along the foundation wall. I still do need to relocate some other pipes though
- I think the way I have my 2-leafs set up - I may be able to avoid difficult and expensive "beefing-up" of the entire stairwell!!

Tradeoffs:
- a small SQUARE live room (for now….)
- only 2-room instead of 3 (no vocal booth
- a much smaller green room

Many question but too many to type now Im tired.
I'll leave it at one not-so-simple question:

For the outer leaf wall around the back of the control room. Which of these 3 options (if any) are best? Do I need to keep the small airspace or can I have a fairly large airspace (about 24") as long as its sealed? I need to leave access to that orange box in the corner that is the waste trap. That orange pipes (also waste lines) are about 4 inches dia. So although that seems like wasted space back there - I prevents me from having to put an access door in the back of the control room in the middle of a bass trap to get to it.

Option 1: Option 2: Option 3:


Here's an update - a solution to get away from the SQUARE Live Room

UPDATE: Good news - I got the OK from structural engineer to add maximum 2 layers of 5/8 gypsum to existing subfloor. It won't need it in all areas but it's good to know I don't have any structural issues.

They still need to do some calculation for removing columns or adding a steam bream.

I'm pretty sure I'm sticking with this most current design of the very large control room.

My main question right now - is ventilation. I am going to installing a dedicated heating/cooling/ventilation system for the studio. I know how to build the silencer boxes - but my question is how to pass the duct through the 2 separate leafs?

When I was confused about how the 2 leaf system - I was not confused about the ventilation silencer boxes.

Now that I understand the 2 leaf system - I do not understand how the silencer boxes will work.

Do I need a silencer box on the interior leaf and the exterior leaf?

I have searched and found plenty of design and pics for how to build the silencer boxes - but I can't seem to find it applied to a 2-leaf wall system.

See attached photo - i was planning on having the supply and return duct enter the room through the back wall of the control room. How would I mount the silencer box(s)?

OK Well I guess I didn't properly attach the photo on that last post.

Rod Gervais's book finally arrived and through further research I think I've figured out how to do the ducting.

I do have one remaining question if anyone could help.

See attached photo (please don't make fun of my freehand insulation sketch) - I am wondering exactly how to penetrate from outer leaf to inner leaf - do I use a hard duct? - somehow decoupled from the frame with caulk or something?
Or can/should I use a flexible duct connector?
I understand the concepts of lining the duct - 90 turns - building a soffit that turns a few times within the room and running or through a silencer box which essentially "moves the hole" in the sealed shell walls to lessen the isolation loss.

The only thing I'm sort of caught up on is how to "connect the 2 holes" in the outer and inner leaf walls.