NEW Basement Studio Design in New York. Looking for advice

How thick should my walls be, should I float my floors (and if so, how), why is two leaf mass-air-mass design important, etc.

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Soundman2020
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Re: NEW Basement Studio Design in New York. Looking for advi

Post by Soundman2020 »

Since I'm putting 6 mil poly under the laminate flooring anyway,
Ummmm.... Why? What's wrong with your slab? If it is built properly, then it would be a bad idea to trap the moisture inside the slab with plastic sheeting on top as well as below...


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richroyc
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Re: NEW Basement Studio Design in New York. Looking for advi

Post by richroyc »

Thanks for the reply Stuart! good to hear from you its been a while.

The house is old, I think it was built around 1942 so I'm not sure whats under the slab. It seems to be in very good condition though, there no cracks anywhere and the basement doesn't seem to have any moisture or humidity issues at all. It's very dry down there.

Almost all of the installations of laminate or engineered type wood flooring suggest a moisture barrier on top of the slab. I don't know if its code or not, but it's seems like a recommendation to prevent any moisture to effect the flooring. I guess the assumption is that if its a basement its going to have moisture issues? I can't find a video on youtube, or any installation guide that doesn't show the 6 mil plastic going on the slab, but many that do.

Trapping the moisture was my fear, otherwise I would have just installed the plastic as a precaution.

Is there a way to measure humidity/moisture levels? How do I proceed if I don't know how the slab was built?
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Re: NEW Basement Studio Design in New York. Looking for advi

Post by Soundman2020 »

Is there a way to measure humidity/moisture levels?
There's a simple but nor scientific method: Tape a piece of plastic to the floor, and see if condensation forms under it. Just cut out a fair size piece of transparent 6mil plastic, maybe a square foot or so, and tape it to the floor around all the edges, using duct tape or some such. Leave it for a couple of days. Then check to see if there are any droplets of water on the underside of the plastic. If so, you have a problem! If not, then you don't.

I normally use the underlay that is specifically recommended by the manufacturer of the flooring that you plan to install. They probably know best what their flooring needs. Plus, if the flooring does then warp, twist or blister, they can't wriggle out of the guarantee by saying that you used the "wrong" underlay!

One of the most important but often overlooked issues when installing laminate flooring, is to leave the correct gap around the edges: Do not butt it up tightly against the walls! Be careful to leave the amount of space that the manufacturer instructs, because the floor will expand and contract with changes in temperature and humidity. If you don't leave the gap, it has no place to expand into, so it will buckle and warp... and your warranty will be void, justifiably...

In other words, read the manufacturer's installation instructions very carefully, and follow them to the letter. If he tells you to put down 6 mil plastic, then do it. If he does NOT tell you to that, then don't do it!

Do not, ever, build any part of your studio based solely on YouTube videos!!! If you do, you might end up with products and advice such as is highlighted in this recent thread : http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewt ... =3&t=21423
Thanks for the reply Stuart! good to hear from you its been a while
Yep! It sure is good to see you back again, and making progress again! I always wondered what happened to your build: really happy to see it moving again... Following.... :)


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richroyc
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Re: NEW Basement Studio Design in New York. Looking for advi

Post by richroyc »

Stuart! Thanks for the advice as always and great to hear your following the thread! :thu:

Moisture test underway!
IMG_9440.JPG
Also here is a few pics of some existing wood (2x3's and the bottom of the stairs) that have been in direct contact with the slab, presumably since the house as built (80 years?). They look completely dry no sign of moisture or rotting.
IMG_9447.JPG
IMG_9451.JPG
IMG_9445.JPG
I'm still planning on using pressure treated lumber for the wall bottom plates, my architect told me this was required (I'm assuming they meant by code).
richroyc
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Re: NEW Basement Studio Design in New York. Looking for advi

Post by richroyc »

One of the most interesting thing is the ceiling design so I thought I'd post a pic of the sketchup.

It's basically the inside out method with the modules that slide up into the frames backer rodded and caulked (as per some of Stuart's builds....brilliant method by the way). My modules would be built on 2x3 frames so they could fit up inside the 2x4 ceiling grid.

The difference is I was insistent to my arch/engineer that I use 2x4's overhead instead of 2x6. They basically told me that my span was just too far. But I insisted. We came up with a solution.

The engineer sized a steel beam W4x13 which could span the width, and allow me to use joist hangers for the 2x4's. This way the length of the span for the 2x4's is about 8' 0". Both halves of the studio use the same method. The beam essentially holds up HALF of the weight of each ceiling section with other half resting on the rear wall (or the front wall for the front section of the room)
NEW CEILING STEEL BEAM.jpg
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Re: NEW Basement Studio Design in New York. Looking for advi

Post by richroyc »

I have another question regarding doors, actually mainly the door framing.

See pic from Rods book. He advises to build the frame straight through the leaves for the super door.
rods door frame detail.JPG
I am not seeing (nor is it described) how these through jambs get fastened to the wall framing. He only shows back rod and caulk?? I'm certain there must be something not shown on the detail since these jambs hold the VERY HEAVY doors. If I'm understand correctly, the door frame is the one place where the 2 leaves will be attached to each other. (single door method)

I guess the basic question I'm asking is - Does the "5/4 STOCK WOOD JAMB" get nailed/fastened into the wall frame? (in this case it would be the jack stud). If so, then why the "compressed rockwool"

I also attached a cut from one of the door vendors. I know they aren't designing my walls, but I am confused about the huge gap between the leaves. Should i even be considering a company that doesn't seem to understand MSM soundproofing at all?

UPDATE: They responded to my question with this "That gap that you see is essentially the separation between the two walls. You do NOT want anything solid there. What we recommend is to fill it with some backer rod and caulking. That will provide the sound seal without giving the sound anything solid to resonate through."

This actually makes some sense. Now I don't know what is right at all, Rod's method, or this method?

mfg door detail.JPG
Last edited by richroyc on Thu Feb 08, 2018 8:07 am, edited 2 times in total.
richroyc
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Re: NEW Basement Studio Design in New York. Looking for advi

Post by richroyc »

For the door latches I'm trying to achieve a push plate/pull handle design with no handle to turn.

I've seen these on many of Wes Lachot studios as well as LP Swist other major designers.

However, none of the door companies I am speaking with approve the use of no latches. They claim the pressure from the seals pushing on the door needs a good latch (some even have a 3-point latch) to hold the door against the seals. They say even a heavy duty door closer may not get the door all the way into the seals?

I'm assuming Wes and other designers use these little guys - called "roller-bolts" or also "ball-catcher". This is what I've seen used at other studios I've worked at as well. I asked the door companies if (3) of these would suffice (one in and then at the top and bottom of door) but they are all very hesitant that it will work.
C_Roller_Bolt_Lockwood_7580_02.jpg
So where does Wes' Doors come from ?!?!? How are the held closed with no handle latch?

I'm really trying to avoid everyone having to close the door by hand by pulling on a handle until the latch catches.....

I'd rather to be able to just open the door, and walk away , the rest happens automatically.

Any ideas?
richroyc
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Re: NEW Basement Studio Design in New York. Looking for advi

Post by richroyc »

So I've sort of got delayed on starting my walls because I haven't purchased my insulation yet (or DECIDED what to get :oops: :shock: )

I'm pretty sure I'm going with rockwool afb (45kg/m3) to fill the wall cavity.

there's another owens product called quietzone, I cannot find the density ANYWHERE but it must be very low because they claim it has the same STC as rock wool with 265% its density... :roll: (not sure WHICH product they are referring to)

anyway this product seems a lot less expensive because it's even cheaper per square foot and it 5-1/2 thick as opposed to 2" for the AFB.

If I remember reading correctly on another thread, for fiberglass 30kg/m3 is optimal and for mineral wool 50kg/m3 is optimal.

I'm not going to be 100% optimal either way, so if anyone has any info on the density of the owens quietzone, or has any advice which i should use in my cavity - it would be GREATLY appreciated.

i had hoped to be putting up walls tomorrow, and i have my helper coming tomorrow anyway, but since it doesn't look like I can do too much with the walls - i''ll have to try to keep busy with other stuff.
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Re: NEW Basement Studio Design in New York. Looking for advi

Post by Soundman2020 »

because they claim it has the same STC
Irrelevant and meaningless for insulation! Insulation by itself is very, very lousy for acoustic isolation: it is mostly AIR, and there is free passage of air all the way through! Insulation only works for isolation when it is part of a SYSTEM. Advertising that insulation has a good STC rating is about as intelligent as advertising that your shock absorbers can go 240 km/h! Sure they can, but only when they are part of a a CAR! By themselves, they ain't goin' no place.... So that's misleading advertising at best, especially if there is no actual acoustic data to go on.
same STC as rock wool with 265% its density
So it's around 120 kg/m3? :shock: :!: Ummmm.... seems rather HEAVY!!
If I remember reading correctly on another thread, for fiberglass 30kg/m3 is optimal and for mineral wool 50kg/m3 is optimal.
:thu:

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Re: NEW Basement Studio Design in New York. Looking for advi

Post by richroyc »

Thanks Stuart!

I'm about to place the order on the insulation right now!! going with the 45 kg/m3 rock wool :yahoo:

yikes! these costs really add up $$$$$$

something really important regarding this particular insulation from the mfg cut sheet:

Actual Density at thicknesses ≥ 3" (76.2mm) - 2.5 lbs/ft³ (40 kgs/m³)
Actual Density at thicknesses < 3" (76.2mm) - 2.8 lbs/ft³ (45 kgs/m³)

wow! - so I definitely can't buy any 4" thick batts. i'm going to just go with all 2"thick x 4' x 2' batts
same STC as rock wool with 265% its density
So it's around 120 kg/m3? :shock: :!: Ummmm.... seems rather HEAVY!!
I think they were implying that theirs is around 17 kg/m3 (265% on that is 45 kg/m3)??? either way it seems fishy - they know the density but don't want to list it anywhere.....

EDIT: WHERE AM I GOING TO STORE OF OF THIS?!?!? LOL :cen:
pile of insulation.jpg
Last edited by richroyc on Sun Feb 11, 2018 5:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: NEW Basement Studio Design in New York. Looking for advi

Post by richroyc »

I've narrowed down the things I am still struggling with in a short list:

1: Door Frame Detail - Rods method or de-coupled method?
Rod's method (I know I'm missing a lot of details this is a simplified version):
DOOR OPTION 1.jpg
Decoupled method - leaves are decoupled (GOOD) but there is a large gap very little mass (backer rod and caulk only):
DOOR OPTION 2.jpg
2. Any ideas how they do doors like this without a handle/latch?
Stainless-steel-door-handle-knob-signs-shake-handshandle-Wooden-door-shake-handshandle-Push-and-pull-board.jpg
3. Installing vapor barrier on standard wall seems really simple. But how does a vapor barrier get installed on an inside out wall? Or rather WHERE does it go, then eventually yes, HOW does it physically get installed? Are we concerned about the framing being exposed to moisture or do we just care that the cavity doesn't get moisture trapped inside?
Regular Wall:
VAPOR BARRIER 1.jpg
Inside Out Wall or Ceiling:
VAPOR BARRIER 2.jpg
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Re: NEW Basement Studio Design in New York. Looking for advi

Post by Soundman2020 »

I've narrowed down the things I am still struggling with in a short list:
. . .

Question? How wide are your doors? An how thick? And how heavy?

If you go with Rod's superdoor, you will need to greatly beef up the framing. That things is major big-time heavy! You don't want the framing bending and twisting as the door opens and closes.

Personally, I don't follow that plan. I always do pairs of doors, back-to-back. They can be less heavy and still get the job done. You also have dual sets of seals, so no single seal failure is going to trash your isolation.
but there is a large gap very little mass (backer rod and caulk only):
Right! And that's a problem...
leaves coupled but....
Right! And that's a problem...

:)
2. Any ideas how they do doors like this without a handle/latch?
Well..... umm... you put four screws in the four holes on each handle, and you are done! :) :shot: 8)

Yeah, I know you weer talking about latches, but I couldn't resist! :)

OK, the thing is, you don't need latches! These doors are too heavy to open close by hand safely (you don't want a hundred kilos of wood slamming into your jambs and seals!), so instead you use an automatic door closer. It's a simple spring-loaded hydraulically damped device that goes on top of the door, like this:
door-closer.jpg
Find out how heavy your door is, and check which sense it opens, then look for the right model. Some are "handed" in that they only work on a left-hand opening door or a right-hand opening door. Others are universal, and work either way.

Those things close the door gently and safely, and then they apply the right amount of pressure to keep the seals tight. No latch needed.
But how does a vapor barrier get installed on an inside out wall? Or rather WHERE does it go,
Same place as for a conventional wall. Yes, it's not ideal since you still have the drywall exposed to the cavity, but it will still be warm, and therefore there should be no condensation happening there. Sometimes people don't realize what a vapor barrier actually does, and they confuse it with a water barrier or air barrier: it isn't... :) If you aren't sure, this might help: https://buildingscience.com/documents/d ... r-barriers .

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Re: NEW Basement Studio Design in New York. Looking for advi

Post by richroyc »

but there is a large gap very little mass (backer rod and caulk only):
Right! And that's a problem...

Quote:
leaves coupled but....
Right! And that's a problem...
I realize neither one of these situation is ideal, the problem is, I'm forced to do a single door due to space limitations. So I have to choose one of these methods :|
Just trying to choose the lesser of two evils....

Regarding the door closers - GREAT! :yahoo: I wasn't sure if a heavy duty door closer could press into the seals properly, maybe I was overthinking it. Stuart are you familiar with these things called called roller bolts? or sometimes a ball-catcher? used in conjunction with no handle/latch?
C_Roller_Bolt_Lockwood_7580_02.jpg
it would be fairly hard if not impossible to figure out ahead of time if I would even need these and if so how many I would need (closer strength, door weight, force required to press into seals, etc...). I guess they could be added later if I go with a wood door? I'm hoping I should be ok with just a heavy duty door closer.
Well..... umm... you put four screws in the four holes on each handle, and you are done! :) :shot: 8)
LMAOOO hahaha :poke: :lol:

Side note - moisture test seems to be 100% fine. It's been about a week no sign of any moisture, just dry! :D
IMG_9472.JPG
We had 2 nights of very heavy rain as well so the ground outside got pretty wet, and still bone dry in the basement. Im am curious though if in the summertime this would be different? My old basement (which has had tons of issues moisture issues by the way, got noticeably more humid in the summer. In not saying all of this humidity came from through the slab, but perhaps some?

Question? How wide are your doors? An how thick? And how heavy?
rough opening 33" W x 75" tall
still choosing between a few manufactured doors or fashioning my own, but they seem to be in the range of 300-350 lbs door slab and roughly 2 1/2" thick. for wood.
steel seemed like it would too heavy to actually install, they were upwards of 500 lbs although less thick. prices for manufactured doors are pretty insane. got a quote for steel $5,100 each (I need TWO) :cen:
wood seems to be in the range of $2,500 - $3,500. these prices were with glass windows installed in the doors. still shopping though.
If you go with Rod's super-door, you will need to greatly beef up the framing.
my door framing:
door frame.jpg
That's a 4x4 on the left that the jack-stud is attached to (which would be the hinge side, door opening in towards us). so essentially the king stud is a 4x4. if I went with Rod's coupled through jamb, that would seem to add a lot of strength front to back since the outer and inner leaf wall are both now supporting the door framing.
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Re: NEW Basement Studio Design in New York. Looking for advi

Post by richroyc »

quick question on HVAC ducts
If i have a 1 silencer box on my outside leaf and then a 2nd on the inside leaf....do I still need one of these heavy duty sleeves? )
duct with neoprene.jpg
or could I just use a regular flex connector?
flex conn.jpeg
ImageGen.gif
silenc boxes.jpg
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Re: NEW Basement Studio Design in New York. Looking for advi

Post by Soundman2020 »

If i have a 1 silencer box on my outside leaf and then a 2nd on the inside leaf....do I still need one of these heavy duty sleeves? )
Well, you'll need SOMETHING to join them! If not that, then what? You could use ordinary flex duct, if your dimensions and calculations allow for that,


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