John Sayers' Recording Studio Design Forum Archive

Hi. This is my second post here. My first one will be abandoned for a while due to funding/planning issues. I'll be reposting there in a couple of months from now.

The good news is that i have the possibility to extend my actual studio with a nice tracking room.

Ive been working there for 7 years and it has been very nice so far. I made lots of mistakes in the original design and construction because of my lack of knowledge and lack of funds at the time. The booth is allright to do overdubs. The Control Room could be a lot better. I have managed to do some good records anyway.

Presently i don't have so much funding but i know one or two things that i didn't know then.

The Tracking Room sound nice as is. I have done some recordings there without any treatment and i love the sound. I would actually like to change the acoustics as little as possible. My main concern so far is ISOLATION.

The main problem is that this is a 2nd floor of an old building. Thick Walls, big rooms, nice wooden floors. Very well isolated from the street noises. I have been here for some years now and i had no complains from any of the neighbours. This is because i don't make a lot of noise and i work office hours.

I track some drums from time to time and i'm looking to do so but they are usually jazzy or folk drummers and they don't play so hard. So the first and most punctual problem is Vibration Isolation. I do tracking and mixing almost in equal alves but i'm leaning more towards mixing in my studio and tracking somewhere else with better equipment than what i can afford. The main idea with this new tracking studio comes because i'm doing a lot more production and i want to have a place where i can use all the time i want for production.

I've built my past two studios so i can do most of the work myself. I can invest $1000-$1500 dollars if i need to. My plan is to do it slowly and make some tests in between with my regular customers to see how it sounds.

I'm posting some pictures of the actual layout as well as a Sketchup file. I have detailed there the original walls of the building, the actual studio (a small control room and a smaller vocal booth with strange dimensions).

My idea would be to start with the tracking room and maybe rebuilding my C.R. I have studied the possibility of ripping everything off and start from the ground sacrificing the vocal booth. This is detailed in the sketchup as Plan A, and Plan B.

I like Plan A because it faces the tracking room and has more simmetry but Plan B looks more normal and monitor can be easily soffit mounted.

I will post some real pictures in a couple of days.

FIRST QUESTIONS:
Do you consider the idea of mounting my tracking room in a 2nd floor absolutely undoable?

More descriptions in my next post.

Thanks in advance.

FIRST PICTURE: Original construction. This cannot be modified. I forgot to say that this is my fathers property. He will be moving south at the end of this year.

This is the actual layout with two double layered gipsum board for the booth walls.
A 3D view
Another 3D view of the actual layout: You can see the actual treatment.
All the space over the booth is used for storage right now. You must understand that when i moved here from my previous location i had no place to live or to work so i had to build this studio in acouple of months to continue working and i lived at my fathers place for a year until i could finally move out. I know i could have done it better if i had the time but consider i build the actual studio with less tha a thousand US dollars and it has repaid itself many many times since.

Now i have plenty of work and i want to make it better. if it can't be used ill just seal the doors and windows to prevent sound leakage and i'll use it as my personal studio for production until i can find a better place.

Thank to all of you. I'll be attaching the sketchup so you can see the details.

F

The Floor and neighbour ceiling is based on what i've seen in other parts of the apartment. My idea is to lift all the ROOM B wooden floor to see exactly what it is down there. Probably a 10-15 cm air gap. I would fill it with Fiberglass. Then, put some "Anti-vibration material of some kind" (any suggestions?) and do some heavier layers of floor over that structure (OCB-Gypsum-OCB-Hardwood?)

Remember that in the sketchup file there are various layers explaining the situation of the building. I forgot to tell you the actual Height is less then 3.70 m but there is a 30 cm gap between the false ceiling and the real ceiling. Are you familiar with this old constructions?

The main question remains: can something be done to improve the overall isolation? Does it make sense to you?

I have just learn my Sketchup was too large. I'll post a Mediafire link:

http://www.mediafire.com/download/4fx72 ... Merged.skp

Thanks
F

I forgot to add some info! Sorry.

All the Original walls are made of solid Bricks. All exterior walls are 30cm thick. I think it was important to be clear. All the rooms receive little noise from outside and are internal with no conection to the street.

Hi there "Frygyes", and Welcome!

the first and most punctual problem is Vibration Isolation.

When you say "Vibration Isolation", are you talking about the vibration of a drum kit or bass amp getting into the floor? If so, then there are ways of dealing with that. If that's not it, then maybe you could explain better what you mean?

Do you consider the idea of mounting my tracking room in a 2nd floor absolutely undoable?

It can be done, provided that you don't need high levels of isolation. Or if you DO need high isolation, then it can be done if you are prepared to spend a LOT of money...

Looking at your SketchUp models, it would be a very good idea to get rid of the vocal booth and use that extra space to expand the CR, as you show in the last image. That would be an excellent option.

The main question remains: can something be done to improve the overall isolation? Does it make sense to you?

Yes, there are things that can be done to improve isolation, but we'll need to know a lot more about the existing structure first, and also about your current isolation levels, and the levels you'd like to get to.

All the Original walls are made of solid Bricks. All exterior walls are 30cm thick.

Excellent! But what about the floor and ceiling? What are those made of?


- Stuart -

Hi, Stuart! Thanks for your response.

When i say vibration isolation i mean exactly that. I know there are ways but i don't know which one could be the best. The most practical for me would be to mount the new floor in some kind of "rubber feet". The thing is i haven't been able to find the proper product here in Argentina. Can you suggest something?

I don't need super high levels of isolation. I will post some numbers as soon as i run some tests.

Regarding C.R. i am definitely planning on removing the booth in the next stage. Wich layout do you prefer?

Plan A: Better symmetry but the monitors are not throwing sound on the length of the room
PLan B: Looks more normal but the symmetry breaks on the back of the room.
So, about the structure. I'll be taking my camera with me on Monsay to take some pictures. Floors and ceillings on the building are as following from top to bottom: 1" hard wood finish (over wooden joists) / 16" air gap / solid bricks on iron joists (ill post a picture later) / air gap (again) / gypsum finish (neighbour roof)

I know this produces a triple leaf effect but i cannot affect whatever it is below the bricks level because it is my neighbour's roof.

This is my idea of what can be done:
I could add an aditional gypsum board layer if necessary between de high density vinyl and the thin OSB layer.

The floor is mounted over this iron joist. I have consulted and it seems it would tolerate this amount of material.

I ll be posting real pictures as soon as i remember to take the camera with me!

Thanks
F

This is my plan for the floor:
So far i think it is the way to add more mass without lifting the ground level too much.

what do you think?

PLan B: Looks more normal but the symmetry breaks on the back of the room.

That's the best arrangement. Better than Plan A for sure, despite the angle at the rear of the room, where the door is. Plan A also allows you to soffit-mount your speakers, which would be excellent.

So, about the structure.

Actually, that's not the best way to float your floor, which is what you are trying to do. You should really read this thread, about how to float a floor, so you understand the issues:

http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewt ... f=2&t=8173

It might be better to just go with a drum riser, or even an entire floor based on that principle.

- Stuart -

I read that post a while ago. It was good to refresh that info. I thought it would not be possible to float the floor. I also thought that was something similar but a little lighter on construction but i see i was wrong.

Right now i have already taken all the original deck out and discovered the "base floor". I ll take some pictures today. Is there something i can use to at least damp the "druming sound" of the deck? I was thinking of something like putting high density fiber glass or sand and placing a new floor that is thicker, harder and heavier. Over that glueing the old hardwood floor. Does this make sense?

I m trying to contact an acoustician to give me some advice. I m sure i cant pay him to do all the design and direction but surely he can give me some advice and putting me in contact with the right people. I also got the number of a guy who worked for 20 years at WSDG doing all the Dry Construction so i will probably give him a call.

Thanks Stuart!

I think the idea of a Drum Riser the same size of the floor is what i had in mind.

I've read various posts talking about different building approaches. I have reduced the options to three ideas:

* Building a deck over rubber pucks or something like that. This idea has been discouraged by Rod in his book but i have seen it so many times that i felt i had to put it in this list.

* I understand the principle on Glenn's Riser but i couldn't find the original post where this idea is explained completely. I understand that they are layers of mass over Rigid Fyberglass (OC703 or OC705?).

* The third approach is a SandFilled deck but i feel it is going to be too heavy for my structure.

As you can see i'm beginning to think that Glenn's riser is the best approach. In any case, if i wanted to build a second layer of Drywall. Should i build it on the new deck or on the first layer of floor?

I'll keep reading and keep posting.

Thanks Stuart

Any expriences with this?

http://www.kineticsnoise.com/arch/rim.html

or this?

http://www.auralex.com/sound_isolation_ ... _uboat.asp

Those two looked interesting. Specially Kinetics. They can go as thin as 1" which would leave me with a good margin to build a thicker foor. The web page says they prepare it for any load so maybe it can save me some math. What do you think?

This would be the easy/economic solution:
http://articulo.mercadolibre.com.ar/MLA ... atoria-_JM

This are sold here in Argentina and i can pay them with local currency. This would be a great advantage but they dont ook so professional.



f

* Building a deck over rubber pucks or something like that. This idea has been discouraged by Rod in his book but i have seen it so many times that i felt i had to put it in this list.

Let me add one more "discouragement" to your list! That's not the way I would go at all. It's just too hard to get it right.

* I understand the principle on Glenn's Riser but i couldn't find the original post where this idea is explained completely. I understand that they are layers of mass over Rigid Fyberglass (OC703 or OC705?).

That's what I would do, in your situation. OC703 would be fine for that, with a couple of layers of plywood on top, screwed together. Cut the plywood just a bit smaller than the walls, so there is a gap all around the edges (maybe 3mm or so), then seal that gap with backer rod and caulk.

* The third approach is a SandFilled deck but i feel it is going to be too heavy for my structure.

A sand-filled deck adds mass and damping, but no decoupling. There are still hard connections between the finish floor and the sub-floor, which will transmit sound all the way through. I would not go with that option, in your situation.

As you can see i'm beginning to think that Glenn's riser is the best approach.

In any case, if i wanted to build a second layer of Drywall. Should i build it on the new deck or on the first layer of floor?

On the existing floor. Unless you do a proper floated floor (concrete deck) that is correctly designed and calculated, then the floor should just be a floor: no walls on top of it. So first build your new walls, then put the new floor within the space delimited by the new walls.

---

Any expriences with this? ( kinetics RIM ) ... or this? ( u-boats)

The Kinetics system is designed to have a concrete deck poured on top of it, and it should work well in that application. Yes, they also show a floor built up from multiple layers of plywood and drywall, to add a bit of mass, but then the give the rating in STC!!! And they don't provide any results for testing in independent acoustical test laboratories... Hmmm.... so it's hard to say how such a floor actually behaves in real-life. I always get VERY suspicious when an acoustics company doesn't rest their products in independent labs... or maybe does test them, but then doesn't publish the results...

And as for u-boats, ..... well, I absolutely agree with Rod and other well-known studio designers / acousticians on this point: Personally, I would never build a studio floor like that. It is very interesting that Auralex provides data sheets for all of their other products on there "test data" web page, with acoustic measurements, ... but nothing at all for u-boats. I wonder why that is? Take a look: ( http://www.auralex.com/testdata/ ). Then draw your own conclusions.

The web page says they prepare it for any load

as the saying goes in Spanish: "El papel aguanta mucho." Claiming that an acoustic product works for all loads and and all situations, is sort of like a shoe manufacturer saying that they only make one model of shoe, because it fits everybody.... or an underwear manufacturer saying that they only make one size of bra, because it fits all women...

This are sold here in Argentina and i can pay them with local currency. This would be a great advantage but they dont ook so professional.

Once again, the only way to tell is to get the test data: Call them up and ask them to send you the test results from when their product was tested in a reputable, well-known, independent acoustic test laboratory. If they say that it never has been tested, or that they can't send you the results for whatever reason, then hang up the phone and walk away....

- Stuart -






- Stuart -

Ok. So i cleared some questions and new ones arrive.

FLOOR:

Mineral wool would be equivalent?

Should i put 25mm or 50mm thick?

OC703 is not for sale in Argentina. 703 density is 48kg/m3 so my two options are 40kg/m3 or 75 kg/m3. Which one would you pick?

I'm still looking for Backer Rod. I can't find a product online so i'll go to a couple of shops as soon as i get better from my flu.

As for the panels, i was thinking in 2 layers of Plywood or OSB and maybe adding some high density Vynyl that is used a lot in studio construction here (Density is 2200 kg/m3) it is Fonac Barrier and i think it's sold in Chile, too.



WALLS:

Now the walls. should i use some kind of resilent system for the walls and ceiling? I know it is going to add a lot to the cost so i would avoid it if possible.

Also i wanted to leave the window on the room and cover it with drywall from the outside with the idea of removing that drywall in the future and putting a big laminated glass to preserve the natural light. Will i be sacrificing too much Isolation?


I'll start drawing and put some sketches later.

Thanks!!

Two pictores of the floor without the hardwood.

Hi!

After a couple of weeks of research and consulting i think i made some advances.

My consulting architect has helped me find what appears to be the thinest yet most securely (structurally speaking) way to prepare the subfloor for the fiberglass bed and the plywood platform.

All the original wood that composed the struvture will be eliminated. We are going to use iron "C" shaped bars, fill with 3 cm of light concrete and then a layer of plywood. On top of that the rigid fiberglass and then the 2 layers of plywood (maybe with Fonac Barrier in between) and then the final harwood finish.

Please if you have any insights on my latest questions it would be a great moment to let me know if i'm thinking it wrong.
That is a draft of what the iron grid will look like.

EDIT: A couple of weeks have passed since the last answer. I know you guys must be busy. My main concern is the Mineral wool thickness. Mainly because they told me i must order it in advance and it can take a month to be ready so i would really appreciate if you can give me some info on that. Maybe this post should be moved to the construction forum? Thanks a lot!